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May 29, 07
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Electric would be ideal, but the fact is the battery technology for deep discharge hasn't been validated yet for Lithium and NiMH can't do the job otherwise the EV1 would have actually caught on. Once someone can warantee a deep discharge Lithium battery for 10+ years with little capacity fade then we will be golden. It will be nice to see the day when there are multiple PHEV's on the market especially if it could be charged with solar panels on your roof.
A123 just released a promising PHEV lithium cell a couple weeks ago that looks promising, but again, they still need to be tested. As far as canola goes, I'm thinking ethanol and bio diesel are more promising and fuel cells in automotive applications are still years out. 
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May 29, 07
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there are major steps we need to take to rethink the way we build our cities. we need high density based around rail networks. we need to start increasing freight capacity on rail lines so we can stop relying on trucks. we need to build our cities with a focus on pedestrians and bikes. solar and wind power should be incorporated in our building codes so any new development has it installed. we need to start producing as much food locally as possible, a great model of this is what Cuba has done. we need to stop importing everything we buy from China and other foreign markets. the problem is that these ideas don't mesh with the consumer slut attitude that the corporate media wants to promote so instead of these they tell you about electric cars.
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May 29, 07
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May 29, 07
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Supply and Demand, with a small exception...
When it comes to products that are concidered essential, supply and demand only goes so far. I mean, gas aint pinapples you know? People simply cant go without that hydrocarbon goodness. And the oil companies know this... Then again, I'm no expert, but thats the consensus iv gotten reading about world politics and such over the past 5 years. And yes, Iraq and the Middle east have a huge impact... While on the topic... Iv always wanted to ask the folks at Shell or Chevron, when I pull up to get filled up... "Does your gas come from Iraq?" Wonder what they would say..... Last edited by riddla; May 29, 07 at 06:53 PM.
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May 30, 07
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Well I agee, canola is not necessarily the next big thing, I was trying to point out that there are various alternatives. At this current time there is no possible way we could just cut oil consumption to zero, but it could be greatly reduced. I do believe that a huge percentage of daily driven cars could be converted to alternative fuel sources. It is a backwards notion that every vechicle needs to be powered by the same fuel source. If that is not viable, then that is not what we need to resort to. Maby some cars need to be electric, and some will be bio-deisel and some will be gas, and some will be hybird. We will still need oil for things like tires etc.
As for electric vechicles... I dont know what this belief that battery technology is not good enough yet. What the hell is it with this 10 yr shit? this is all media crap. Its just a benchmark that people think needs to be met. Fuck it, if the battery runs for 6 years, than thats what it does. Some think that 10 years is reasonable so thats what the industry is shooting for. But if you tell me I have to choose between a car with a 6yr battery life or nothing, Ill pick the 6 yr battery life, and buy new batteries when I need to. If everyone is doing this, and there is a big battery market the battery technology is going to rapidly improve. The first car motor is nothing compared to the technology we have available now. Poor motor design did not stop cars from becoming popular in the first place. The evolution of the motor happened after the car took off. If electric cars are the next big thing, then they are. Battery technology does not need to be any more advanced than it currently is, it just needs to be made mainstream.
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May 30, 07
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This isn't media hype, this is fact. The media hype is what suggests it is ready, especially with this whole plug in hybrid stuff. You obviously have no idea how much that battery will cost to replace. If you could ,I would really like you to give me an example of a company that actually produced Li-Ion battery PACKS for automotive use that meet the life time requirements of even say 6 years. The simple fact is NiMH technology can't handle deep discharges and neither can standard lithium packs. Companies such as A123 have released deep discharge batteries in the past couple of weeks, but nobody knows how long they will actually last. So if you feel like paying 10 grand for new batteries 5 - 6 years after you buy the car, be my guest. As it stands the Prius battery is worth around 3 grand and has nowhere near enough energy to be put to use in an EV.
Anderman has been in the battery industry for quite some time and I've seen him talk a handful of times, he knows his shit and tells it like it is. The battery technology will not be ready or validated for another couple of years. Toyota will be the first to put Lithium into a vehicle and others will follow. Nobody can buy the batteries Toyata uses as they have majority ownership in Panasonic EV Energy. http://www.advancedautobat.com/order...-Jan-26-07.pdf Quote:
Last edited by Leviathan; May 30, 07 at 09:03 AM.
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May 30, 07
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Going through some of my daily research, I found this. Turns out Toyota announced that they won't be using Li-Ion technology in the new Prius due to safety concerns.
Winding Road » Archive » Japan Report: Toyota Postponing Lithium-Ion Prius? The LiFePO4 technology that A123 and saft have is inherently safe because they do not suffer from thermal runaway but again, very little lifetime validation has been done. Last edited by Leviathan; May 30, 07 at 06:44 PM.
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May 30, 07
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the costs are high because it hasnt become popular. If electric vechicles become mass produced the cost of batteries will come wayyyyy down. Look at the fluxuation in the cost of computer technology.
+And the tesla is employing fully li-ion technology. They are also about to produce a more affordable family sedan electric car. The founders of tesla are no slouches, if you look at the business ventures that the owner has undertaken you will quickly recognize that hes quite intelligent, and that he has the means to make something like this happen.
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May 30, 07
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Tesla is a poor example because they are producing a limited number of cars. As I said before I saw JB Straubel talk a couple weeks ago at a conference and they still aren't sure what the warranty is going to be like on their batteries. They can afford to do this because their car is $100k 15k of that is battery related. They DO NOT HAVE anywhere near as much lifetime data on those batteries as would be needed for someone like Toyota or GM.
As far as volume goes, the tesla battery is made of 6800 18650 sized cells which are made in huge volumes. The founders of Tesla are definitely not slouches but they are building cars that they are selling in the hundreds, not hundreds of thousands. I've been in the fuel cell industry for 7 years, 3 of which have been in hybrid energy storage design. I just got back from an Advanced automotive battery conference in California where everything from Lead Acid batteries to Ultra Caps are discussed. Toyota, Honda, A123, Tesla were all there, and what I'm saying is pretty much what came out of that conference. Lithium batteries for volume commercial use in HEV's is about 2 -3 years out. Lithium in volume for pure electric vehicles is a little further. edit: poor english :) Last edited by Leviathan; May 30, 07 at 04:30 PM.
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May 30, 07
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May 30, 07
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^ since Toyota said they aren't using lithium in the next prius, you might have to wait a while.
When you look at the hybrid market, really all you have is Toyota and Honda with Full and Medium hybrids and then GM with their mild hybrids such as the VUE. GM definitely won't be the first to go with Lithium and I doubt Honda will either. Without lithium you can guarantee that the next prius won't be a PHEV either. So you could be waiting 3-4 years for a Lithium hybrid unless Toyota releases a new model besides the prius (FT-HS)? What HEV's have you been looking at?
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May 30, 07
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May 30, 07
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PHEV = Plug in Hybrid
FTHS is toyota's high performance hybrid supra replacement. It is suppose to be going into production at some point. From a consumer point of view this is a decent site. When I get home I'll try and post some others. Hybrid Center: Hybrid Cars, Trucks, and Suvs
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May 30, 07
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Last edited by Senior; May 30, 07 at 05:00 PM.
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May 30, 07
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May 30, 07
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The issue right now with Plug in Hybrids is that you need alot more extra battery which means reduced cargo space, more cost, and there aren't any batteries proven to last long under constant deep discharge cycling, but they are being worked on.
Dr. Anderman did a study that suggests that on a prius with something like a 40 mile electric range would save you about 70 dollars a year.
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May 31, 07
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strange how i didn't see anyone mention this...
but the whole concept of 'hybrid' or 'electric' vehicles has to be seriously thought over. we here in beautiful British Columbia are blessed to be surrounded by nice mountains... nice mountains = good old hydro electric dams... thats why you see those signs 'BC is a nuclear free zone' upon entry into BC. unfortunately thats not the case for the majority of the world. most of the electricity produced world wide comes from two sources... coal power, or nuclear... both of which are tremendously harmful to the environment, altho they might save some money for the end user... which after all is all anyone TRULY cares about. think about this statistic... the glorious nation of china, is expecting to 'erect' 1000 new coal powered power stations in the next 10 years. thats 100 / year. about one every 3.5 days... and cars and transportation aside... we are all way too in love with this wonderful substance called...... plastic, whos main ingredient is... you guessed it... petrol! oh and those nice oranges sitting in your fruit basket there on the kitchen table there, or them juicy-yet-almost-to-big-to-be-true tomatos in your fridge... yup you guessed it, fertilized by products who's main ingredient is yet again... petrol! ...so yea don't expect the environment to get any better in your lifetimes :D but hey! 19" LCD Flatscreens @ $149CDN, Oranges imported from Florida or the newest season of ___ TV Show, On DVD make the sacrifice of your children's, children health alllll worth while, no?
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May 31, 07
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May 31, 07
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That and nuclear is a great way to generate power, it's a pretty safe and reliable way to generate power despite what you may think because of chernobyl. France is a perfect example. Coal tosses carcinogens into the air, Hydro kills fish, they all have their drawbacks.
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May 31, 07
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