Thoughts on this one?

[decypher]

Originally Posted by kir mokum

see, my real beef is with the way women are brainwashed into thinking they want a wedding and a marriage from birth. nearly all women in our culture want to get married and almost none of them can explain why, they just want to. men are brainwashed too but not nearly to the same extent women are. it's shocking and unbelievable to me. as shocking and unbelievable as people believing in that catholic D&D nonsense.

So you're suggesting women are just passive recipients of societies brainwashing? Way to give them a little credit lol.

I would argue that women are wise to these things and independent thinkers, but that the structure of society, patriarchy and technocratic organization is what holds them back.

If we're going to play on words here at least word your argument better.

[Grapes]

Originally Posted by kir mokum

see, my real beef is with the way women are brainwashed into thinking they want a wedding and a marriage from birth. nearly all women in our culture want to get married and almost none of them can explain why, they just want to. men are brainwashed too but not nearly to the same extent women are. it's shocking and unbelievable to me.

I guess all those animals that mate for life are brainwashed into it by their respective animal magazines eh?

[robyn]

Originally Posted by Grapes

I guess all those animals that mate for life are brainwashed into it by their respective animal magazines eh?

all 7% of them!

[Grapes]

We're but one species, robyn. If we happen to fall into that mating for life category it's probably not because of magazines.

I think the people vastly overestimate how much media can influence our most fundamental instincts. Our base desires dictate what appears in magazines far more than vice versa.

[Grapes]

I heard the multitude of cooking shows on TV these days are to blame for our society's unshakable eating habit.

[kir mokum]

decypher, you're responses are total nonsense. i don't think you could get things more ass-backwards. as far as semantics go, YOU changed the terminology in hopes of creating an easier argument for yourself. i'm not talking about a relationship, i'm not talking about communion, i'm not talking about mating for life so stop trying to put words in my mouth and shift the focus of the debate.

[stephen_c]

pregnancy, diamonds, azn brides and the concept of matrimony aside.

before u take the dive
may i suggest a credit report

Originally Posted by prozac

I hugely disagree.

I was an accident. My mom was 19. My parents were only together very briefly.

I always had two parents. They both raised me and my brother, together, without being in a romantic relationship with eachother or a marriage.

So this argument for getting married just so your kid will have two parents is absolute bullshit. You can be responsible and raise a child without being married, it just takes some maturity, creativity, and old-fashioned hard work.

All this crap about the "traditional" family structure somehow being superior to any other arrangement really pisses me off. It just shits on the incredible love and strength of my parents, single moms who do a good job, gay couples with kids, etc etc. Not to mention the fact that it totally glosses over all the fucked up dysfunctional families in misery because mom and dad got married "because of the child". Wake up, people, it's not 1955 anymore. You don't have to have mom, dad and 2.5 kids to be normal or happy.

Now that said, I DO believe in marriage. I think a lot of people take it way too lightly, which is why I voted don't get married just because you're pregnant. I hate the idea of divorce, and when I get married I intend to stay that way.

i agree you dont need a mom and dad to be normal and happy. i come from a single parent family. but if you ask my mom, if she was faced with the choice to do it again on her own, she wouldnt. it was a long hard road.

i am willing to bet while this particular couple we are talking about may not have been ready for marriage, who are any of us to say they dont love eachother and they dont want it to work. if everyone around you sets you up for failure and doesnt give you the love and support that you need to get by, then you will fail.

marriages/relationships are hard work. the people around you shouldnt make it harder. this couple is just going to have to work a little harder at it.

(for the record, i went to hs with a guy who got a girl knocked up and he found out that she was pregnant the very day he went to break up with her. that was 10 years ago and they are still happily married with two additional children.)

pee ess - i didnt say anything about the traditional family. two parents can be anything that constitutes two adults who care for a child. it takes a village....

Originally Posted by kir mokum

see, my real beef is with the way women are brainwashed into thinking they want a wedding and a marriage from birth. nearly all women in our culture want to get married and almost none of them can explain why, they just want to. men are brainwashed too but not nearly to the same extent women are. it's shocking and unbelievable to me. as shocking and unbelievable as people believing in that catholic D&D nonsense.

i dont think that women are brainwashed at all. how chauvinistic to think that we are unable to think for ourselves.

girls are born sugar and spice and everything nice. boys are snips, snails and puppy dog tails. because guys like sports, tools and cars, does this make them brainwashed?

[prozac]

^It was only very loosely directed at you, I just didn't like the implication some have made that getting married for the sake of an unexpected pregnancy is generally a good idea.

[kir mokum]

Originally Posted by Avana

i dont think that women are brainwashed at all. how chauvinistic to think that we are unable to think for ourselves.

that's bullshit. i didn't say "just girls". i didn't say women can't think for themselves either. i said women have these ideals imposed upon them much more strongly than men. look at every fucking thing marketed toward women: they're all designed to keep them in a very specific place. they've been victimized, imo. do you blame cult members for falling into the trap of cult leaders? do you blame people that get hypnotized for what they do in that state? do you blame victims of brainwashing for not thinking for themselves? the whole point of brainwashing is to bypass your consciousness and your ability to think for yourself. the whole process is extremely subversive and constant. you're so used to it it's normal ("you" being everyone). oh, and don't pretend like i'm arguing for some big conspiracy to keep women barefoot and pregnant that needs to be shaken off.

Originally Posted by Avana

because guys like sports, tools and cars, does this make them brainwashed?

basically, yeah. those are a little more complicated though.



this thread has become pretty hilarious, btw. you guys are loosing your minds over this but no one seems to know why. i'm simply challenging a cultural norm that doesn't make any sense to me and almost everyone is responding like i raped their dad or something.

[galaxie]

Originally Posted by Grapes

I guess all those animals that mate for life are brainwashed into it by their respective animal magazines eh?

The thing is, animals aren't the same as humans. We have the power to reason, therefore, we have the ability to decide what we want to do with our lives - our decisions are not solely based on instinct and survival, but rather our individual views and life goals.

Personally, I want to be married, monogamous for life, and raise a family with my spouse, and share everything together. I believe that is right for me. But, I understand that for some people, monogamy is not what they believe in, and that's fine with me. My problem is when people aren't honest with each other and end up in relationships/marriages that they really shouldn't be in. I know people who are chronic cheaters because that's just how they are - it's fine to feel the need to be with multiple people or whatever, but you're doing yourself (and your partner) a huge injustice when you pretend to be something you're not.

[kir mokum]

Originally Posted by galaxie

our decisions are not solely based on instinct and survival, but rather our individual views and life goals.

neither are animal's.

Originally Posted by galaxie

Personally, I want to be married, monogamous for life, and raise a family with my spouse, and share everything together. I believe that is right for me. But, I understand that for some people, monogamy is not what they believe in, and that's fine with me. My problem is when people aren't honest with each other and end up in relationships/marriages that they really shouldn't be in. I know people who are chronic cheaters because that's just how they are - it's fine to feel the need to be with multiple people or whatever, but you're doing yourself (and your partner) a huge injustice when you pretend to be something you're not.

i agree that pretending you're something that you're not is extremely shitty in a relationship but i'm not talking about monogamy either.

[galaxie]

Some people want to get married.
Some people want to be in a monogamous relationship for life and not get married.
Some people want to have many partners throughout life and never settle down.
Some people are gay.
Some people are straight.
Some people want kids.
Some people don't want kids.
Some people like the colour pink.
Some people don't.

See where I'm going with this?
There's no wrong or right answer to the marriage vs. not debate, I was simply curious to know how people would react to the situation my friends were/are in. To say that every woman who wants to get married has been brainwashed is completely ridiculous. I love the fact that two people can love each other so much that they want to (and do) spend their entire lives together. For some of these people, marriage is a commitment to their bond in front of God - for others, it's an age-old rite of passage that they are deeply committed to. We all know you don't NEED to be married to spend your life with another person - some people feel the need to be married and others don't. That's pretty much it. I think you're making this a whole lot more complicated than it actually is!

[kir mokum]

i guess it's time to let it go. people are getting pretty upset it seems. all i'm getting now is people putting words in my mouth and personal insults. but i seriously believe that very few of you have been able to examine the practise with any sincerity.

[stephen_c]

1 person voted for "Yes - Get married. It's the right thing."

let's lynch him!

[thebobman]

Marriage is not the proper method for obtaining a legally binding agreement for mutual responsibility of a child. That kinda shit is the most damaging thing people do to the institute of marriage that the right wing is so fond of saying that gay people attack. If you get marriage due to a pregnancy you're agreeing to do so not only for the benefit of the child, but also for the mutual benefit of both parties involved. Otherwise the foundation of your marriage will be likely be wrought with problems, which won't help your child.

If your chief concern is the well being of the child think hard first if getting married will be in the best interests of the child. Think about the environment you will be providing for the child; if you fight tooth & nail with each-other, it's not going to be in anyway beneficial for the kid. At the same time, if you decide NOT to get married it's pretty important to get something established to ensure the responsibility of the child is shared properly.

[miss.myra]

Hey dudes what about penguins? They practice monogamy..and my bet is, a lot of whatever is influencing us isn't making it down to antartica.

[tiedye]

I wasn't even in town that weekend.

[esoter1c]

3rd generation bastard here, my dads dad was the bastard spawn of a Scottish whore on the docks of Grangemouth.

My son will be a bastard, a proud bastard that will shitkick your mollycoddled nancyboy's. :D

[ebbomega]

Originally Posted by galaxie

The thing is, animals aren't the same as humans.

Pretty specio-centric view. I personally don't think there's much different between us and animals except that we've got a more developed language (due to our highly evolved hands and mouths). The only thing really keeping monkeys from being able to converse with us is their inability to generate our phonemes.

We have the power to reason, therefore, we have the ability to decide what we want to do with our lives - our decisions are not solely based on instinct and survival, but rather our individual views and life goals.

Believe it or not, "survival" is probably one of the number one drives for humans. Be it genetic survival, memetic survival or even just corporeal survival (nobody wants to die). People want to have their ideas and philosophies carried on to the next generation. They want to have an impact on society. Most goals (marriage, family, schooling, effective career) are usually based in the survival instinct. Your individual view is just how you perceive is the best way for you to enact on this instinct.

People still always say "trust your instincts" and stuff like that, because frankly there are parts of our consciousness and behaviour that even we don't necessarily understand and we kind of need to take at face value.

Ability to reason and discern is something we generally assume that we have over animals, but I think that's a little arrogant to assume, since we all have the same general structure anyways. Only thing that scientifically separates us from other animals is our inability to procreate with them (despite countless attempts as documented by the internet and certain scenes in Clerks II).

[Revolver]

wont really go back and do multiple quotes so here gose.

humans are just animals with multiple neurosies. there are plenty of animals that display characteristics of logic, reason and life long mates. like primates,whales,various mamals ect. ect.

as long as a child is raised in a loving nurturing enviroment then that is what matters most.

women are not conditioned or brainwashed to get married. thats the fucking dumbest thing ive read in a long time.It comes down to genetic programing.Human beings are biologically encoded to seek out a mate,reproduce,and have a secure and stable enviroment to raise offspring.

all of the marrige hoopla,magazines, social expectations of marrige just play upon and exploit those biological urges to breed and the need for stability. stability=survival

marrage=security=stability=prime conditions to raise children end of story.

spare me the people who will say "thats dumb,i dont beleive in marrige,i dont want to have kids,i was raised single parent ect.ect."

this is true,there are expetions to every rule and generalization. there are amazing single parents out there and some downright amazing people that have been raised in a single parent household but the fact remains the same...it is easier with two.

kir mokum will die alone and unhappy.

but of course,above ALL else and above ALL of our own unique veiws and outlooks one thing is certain...LOVE is the most important ingredient.

[Revolver]

oh ya....and basically wat ebbodave said lols.

[decypher]

Originally Posted by miss.myra

Hey dudes what about penguins? They practice monogamy..and my bet is, a lot of whatever is influencing us isn't making it down to antartica.

They make it work down there!

[Grapes]

Originally Posted by galaxie

The thing is, animals aren't the same as humans. We have the power to reason, therefore, we have the ability to decide what we want to do with our lives - our decisions are not solely based on instinct and survival, but rather our individual views and life goals.

I somewhat agree with this... I think it depends what kind of lens you're looking through. The more you're focused on individual variations as opposed to the trends and mores of socieities and cultures, the more you pay attention to this brief moment in human history as opposed to the history of our species as a whole, the truer your comments ring. Course... one could insinuate something about not being able to see the forest for the trees...

I remember something that stuck with me from my trip to Japan. I was visiting the historic village of Nikko, about 2 hours outside of Tokyo, on the advice of the friends I was staying with. The whole trip was a bit of a missed opportunity, actually.. I delayed too long in getting on transit, and by the time I made it out a lot of the main attractions were closing. But I did have time to wander aimlessly for a while, and enter the occasional shrine or enclosure.

Doing so, I came across an unusual tableau.. I regret I can't recall any details about its origin, but I assume it was some piece from a relatively distant age. It featured a sort of illustrated series of steps of the life of a monkey, and, fortunately for me, it also featured english translations. It went something like:

1) The monkey is born to a father and mother
2) He is raised to adolescence
3) He seperates from his parents
4) He questions the nature of his existence and his place in life
5) He finds a mate with whom he can share his life
6) They give birth to a child

That's really rough from memory.. in hindsight I wish I'd taken a photo. But the general impression of the tableau will never leave me. It spoke to our connection to nature, and the base patterns and engines that have driven human history and regeneration. I was particularly fascinated by that middle step being included.. the unquestionable uniqueness of the human experience had been acknowledged, without ever once being so arrogant as to portray us as anything other than members of the animal world.

The tableau wasn't a list of "Rules to Live By". For some people in this world, it won't ring true to their personal experience. But for humanity as a whole, this was the cycle that's driven us to where we are, boiled down to its most innate components.

Fuck Modern Bride. We've been doing this since the dawn of time.