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Feb 29, 04
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The Contraversial thread inspired by the Passion of Christ
Please intelligent and deeply thought out replies only because if I hear anything stupid I will make your life hell unless you prove me wrong :keebler:
The topics are christianity, Jesus Christ, Judaism, the Roman catholic church and religion as a whole. Starting off with christianity, something I myself am very knowledged on, we can look over what christianity teaches and how it has affected the world. As we all know, Jesus Christ "supposedly" was born from the virgin Mary (Roman Catholics worship Mary as well from what i know) in 0 AD. Already it can be pointed out that the arrival of Jesus has gone as far as shaped our time system (BC = Before Christ, AD = Anno Domini (in the time of christian era)). Now reviewing more details on the life of Jesus Christ, he walked in the spotlight claiming he was the "messiah", the son of the God of creator of all things and who had created man in his own image. Now shifting to the topic of God, the bible clearly says he is male. Now if we flashback to the story of Genesis in the old testament, God created man first, then woman, who ultimately drove both Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden through temptation and female convincement. Woman are looked down upon in this story and may be a cause for the sexism towards women today? Now that we can correlate sexism towards women from the story of Genesis, anti semetism may have also officially begun after the arrival of Christ. When Jesus stepped forward and claimed he was the son of God, it caused an outrage in the Jewish synagougue no doubt. He basically said the Jewish faith (and business) was wrong, and that he had been sent down to earth by God to preach the true word. So many who have seen "The Passion" may wonder why did the Jewish high priest and his followers want Jesus dead (not only dead, tortured into pulp and crucified). My theory? Greed. Human nature. If Jesus was indeed right and managed to convince all Jews that he really was the messiah, what would happen to the Jewish church? Bankruptsy! So what do they do? Torture him!! Humilliate him!! Crucify him!! KILL HIM!! Now this view is the start of a VERY contraversial topic that has resulted in the holocaust, hundreds of years of conflict over anti semetic views and ultimately extreme violence in general. So with all these facts, opinions and theories I have laid out from the aquired knowlege I have built since I was a kid going to Sunday school, church and all that, what ultimately do you people think of this whole issue of the word of christianity, the existance of Jesus Christ, anti semetism, violence fueled by religious conflict, sexism towards women, and above all the value of religion? Think this one through thoroughly, i've asked a few people I know and i've already heard some seriously dumbass shit. So if you think you're up to thinking about such a sensitive issue like this please comment. I think this can turn into a very good debate and conversation which may bring out the good and bad of the people on this board. 
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Mar 01, 04
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religion is good, in theory. it lets you beleive that your loved ones are going to a better place when they die. why do people do drugs? because they cant face reality. i have no problem with this.
however, i do have a problem when people take it too seriously and do things like worship. especially when they argue that i am wrong and tell me i am going to hell for not being a christian. people should believe what they want but they shouldnt tell other people what to believe. even though thats kind of what im doing, saying 'relgion isnt real..'
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Mar 01, 04
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*warning, long post. if you dont care about my view of how religion came to be then skip it*
Being someone who looks at religioin from the "outside" i find that its alot easier to arrive at different conclusions. I havent been brought up to believe in any particular faith, but i have been encouraged to look into things on my own to arrive at my own conclusions and i have spent alot of time looking into things and thinking about how i stand on the whole issue. The way i see it is that christianity and other religions do offer something really positive to the people who follow their teachings. It offers a hope that there is good in this world, it offers hope that there is something more to life than the daily crap that we have to put up with in this world. However i have also seen the negative aspects of being strongly commited to a particular belief system. This arrises when people feel that they are "saving" others by trying to spread their religion to their friends, to their fellow country folk, but worst of all trying to force yourself into other countries through violent means. I know this is against the teachings of the bible, yet the bible and other religious figures have been used time and time again as an excuse to go to war and to try to take over other belief systems. From and insiders view this could easily be seen a good thing, imagine being raised your whole life believing that if you dont follow certain rules then you will go to hell. Those people over there in that other country arent following those rules so they will go to hell. So the good christian (insert any other religion here...) thing to do would be to "help" them make the transition into heaven. If that means killing those who resist, then its for the greater good. From an outsiders view, this is imperiallism. Christianity is now the dominant religion in the western world, yet there have been so many instances of religions arising independantly. So try to think about why.... Ive been reading this book called "guns, germs and steel" very good book for anyone who is intereted... Its basically about how the human race has evolved to be where it is now. How the role of developing food production and domistication of animals allowed nomadic tribes to create sedimantary villages and how all this, based almost purely on the landscape of the areas in which these developments happen, lead the the distrubution of power as we see it now. Now what the hell does this have to do with anything? It just makes you think to waaay back before any bibles were written, before there was a head of church/state and think about WHY there was a need for such controls on a society and its pretty self explanatory. Religion gives you a common bond with your neighbour so you dont kill them(which is only really needed in a society of big enough that you dont know all of your neighbours), it gives the leaders of your state and excuse for taxation and to exert power over you through the will of some superior god. All in all religion is a useful tool to keep a society functioning day to day. So virtually all communities will develop their own version at some point. Theres been documented cases of a huge number of religions that have started up, yet there are only a few that have survived. It must be because they are the true religions right! Wrong. It because they were the religions of the people who could kill the best. Who developed agriculture and domestication of animals first, allowing them to become immune to the viruses that they carried to the americas which were responisble for way more deaths of the natives then were the oh so admired pioneers who slaughtered the people with inferior weapons. Its not because christianity is better that we are here, its because it had more power, most of which it didnt earn, it was simply gained in passing. My point--> The fact that its teachings are love and peace and are the true word has nothing to do with why christianity holds the weight that it does today. It has to do with the development of power and control and being in the best position at the right time to kill and spread. *end rant*
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Mar 01, 04
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Im very torn on this topic, i do believe in spirituality and forces that we can't understand, but im not such a believer in the bible, because it is man made and reflects that. There is no way for us to actually know for sure that the events unfolded exactly like that. For all we know, the details could have been skewered to elevate the image of people who followed christ, or the bible could have been written to support the conservative ideals of people of the timeframe. All throughout history so much blood has been spilt for religion. I believe that possibly maybe a few events in the bible are true, but it is man made and corrupted just like our society. This bible/religion has been used as a vehicle for greed, oppression, hate, and death throughout history, i personally find it hard to believe in something that has been used in such a way, and possibly made by the same kinda people. Just as ancient societys used mythology to explain the stars and natural occurances on our planet, people needed God and jesus christ to explain why we were here and refuse to see the scientific facts. There are so many religions in this world, what makes judaism and christianity the "true" religions, what about buddism? and the 1000s of other religions? its so obvious that these religions are man made entitys used for different things. Some use it for self-improvement, to believe in something or some use it for greed/power. People should believe in themselves.
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Mar 01, 04
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nice one ryan i like all the things you've pointed out. especially about imperialism first off. i agree completely. in canadian history, yes there were imperialists from all over Europe interested in colonializing and making some serious cash here in North America. They of course brought with them Jesuit missionaries to spread the word of christ, but at the source, it was imperialism... basically stripping old values and coming along telling a continent that populated 1/6th of the entire worlds population (with amerindians) that they were the heathen that needed to be educated with the white man values.
Jeusit missionaries have also ventured deep into asia, reading as far as japan... japan took in jesuit missionaries and heard them out, but in korea where i'm from.... hehehe we killed them... :keebler: all this comes to my arguement of religion and that ends at human nature. humans fucked up the morals, the cause, and the mission of religion. christianity started as an influence from Jesus' teachings, but it has become a mess. Human nature..... nice one awesome response. i'm not expecting anymore so whatever =)
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Mar 01, 04
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Good point blunted... thats what i was getting at when i said how some people use religion for power/greed.. thats why i find it so hard to believe in, when it has been used in such a way throughout history
btw whats the author of that book blunted? got anymore? i love books like that Last edited by decypher; Mar 01, 04 at 06:39 AM.
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Mar 01, 04
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i went to church before...
it was beautiful too see such positive and caring people, but i can't shake this feeling that outside of their tight knit cult, people are walking all over them...kinda like ned flanders i respect religion in how it has shaped societies moral beliefs too what it is today...i find it kinda amazing but it's also affiliated with a lot of the past and present conflicts going on around the world. i'm not saying religion is the cause of these killings, it's not, it's the people who use it as a pedestal for power. but it seems like all this wrong is 'excused' because it's done in the name of religion? bout the sexism thing... eve may have skanked it up, but aren't christians bout forgiving and forgetting? juuuust kidding but what do you think the world would be like if there was no religion? ps. the world would be a better place without religion, save one, mine ;)
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Mar 01, 04
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i agree with Ryan on a few points: i also was never brought up to a certain faith but was encouraged to explore. and years of exploration later (but that's a whole other post), i haven't found anything in religion that is even remotely attractive. i talked to a preist once, after having read parts of the Bible, and asked some fundamental questions that i hadn't found answers for. having listened to me, he said "look, i cannot answer these. if you choose to become Christian, there are certain truths (or axioms, whatever) you must accept, and only after you have accepted those can you continue exploring the religion." ...and i guess that's where my interest in religion (well, becoming religious, anyways) ended.
now, having said that, i don't think we should forget that there is a huge difference between religion and spirituality. it's important to define the standards by which you live your life, your morals and values; i just see religious people as taking the easy way out, as they take on the beliefs dictated to them, and maybe some of those values aren't so bad, but none the less, they are not your own. so (as Neitzche-like as this may sound), i guess religion really prevents you from becoming who you are (uber-meich?), but instead molds you into a worshipping, i-go-to-church-every-Sunday, i-wear-religious-symbols-to-validate-my-faith, puppet. as for christianity in particular, i don't see it as any different than any other reilgion out there. it's aim is ultimately the same as all the other religions - to spread. and in this way, yes, religion is ultimately a form of control and imperialism. and look at how much it's ruined along the way... a perfect example is in Chinua Achebe's "Things Fall Apart," but there have been countless books on the matter. it's kinda of ironic, idealogically, because most wars, since records of this sort have been kept, have been fought over religion. also, every time i talk about this sort of thing, i think of the last chapter of Camus' "the outsider," the part where the chaplain comes in to talk to Mersault (anyone else know what i'm talking about?), and it describes perfectly (better than i ever could put into words) why religion is futile for the individual, and why the existentialist will perhaps find more fullfillment when all is said and done. [although... anyone care to explain how the concept of religious existentialism works? i'm still really stumped by that one...]
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Mar 01, 04
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I havent seen this movie yet, I think maybe if I were to see the movie I would have something big to say. From what I have heard, its a grusome movie
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Mar 01, 04
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Believe what you will... that's your right and freedom. Relgion is good for some people as it can fill a void in their lives and "save them". I've seen some good examples of it. A couple of my friends have made huge turn arounds and are now going to live past their 30s. As for the non-religious folks (much like me) see you at the Bar tonight! :c-tard:
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Mar 01, 04
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hahahhahah, that movie was awesome
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Mar 01, 04
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am i the only one here who was dissapointed to hear that mel gibson wasn't going to be jesus? i was kind of hoping he'd reprise his lethal weapon character. you know, dislocate his shoulder pulling the cross up the hill, and putting it back into place by ramming it on said cross. maybe also having one of the apostles be an aging black man who's nearly to the point of retiring, but not quite.
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