Chimeras, Cloning and Freak Human-Animal Hybrids

[automatic]

sigh....this would be so much easier if you had a proper grasp of the english language

Originally Posted by maztraz

Let me get this clear:
So People are actualy thinking im basing only my negativity on to this thread..!

besides the fact that this sentence doesn't really make much sense, i was just pointing out that originally, other than saying "look at this, isn't it sick" you really didn't come up with any concrete reasons why we should worry about this kind of stuff.

Originally Posted by maztraz

How fare will technolgy go, how fare Viruses will keep on progressing in every possible way, this is the strict reality even we want to admit it or not...If we never put limits to it there will never be any limits!!!

Viruses progress on their own, mutations happen, and that's got nothing to do with technowledgy or scientific research. From AIDS to SARS to the Asian Bird Flu those were all naturally occurring virsuses that mutated and crossed species, not something that came about as the product of research. Unless you believe the more out-there conspiracy theorists there's never been such thing as an "artificial" or engineered virus let loose in the world. Ironically, genetic research may very well prove to be the most powerful tool available to combat viruses.

Originally Posted by maztraz

My point to all this is there will always be new viruses, and how fare do we need to go on Animals experimentation to please the human race...
(I never supported the fact that we could experiment drugs, various ''health'' medication and other health products on Animals, ''This are living beings'') The risks are very low perhaps, but they are there and real..

This is actually two points, one about viruses which i've adressed above, and another about animal testing, where you seem to be saying that you are against ALL animal clinical testing, which is fine, but in that case this should be an argument about animal testing in general, not about genetic research in particular.

Originally Posted by maztraz

I do not ignore that this might bring progress to medical health, but what more do we need to make people realize that technology is realy starting to have no limits=bad impact on us(exemple puting micro chips into kids buddy, hormones in the food..etc), I'm not saying that the professional recherchers are no pro's...
And the people that are controlling the system(Medical as well) are as much organised to kill millions of other lives around the world, then tell me why would this be any better?
In what hands will this end one day? thats rether the question you should all be asking your selfs?
Exacly we do not know...one more reason to not play with the ''fire''..

I do not base this on any fictions terms contrarly on wht some people can imagine,
this is strict reality, side effects has happened and will still do, if we never put limites once again, ''AUTOMATIC'' just said it, its all about the control, but where is the control when we all ready know that we have no control on all this its all about the ''trust'', but trust isn't always there
(one reason why we should be all against it to gether)

You're starting to ramble a bit here my friend, but what you seem to be saying is that unbridled technological growth is bad for the species, to which i'd reply that it's not the enriching of scientific knowledge which is bad, but the way that we as humans use that knowledge. It's kind of like saying that electricty is bad because look at thow many people it kills every year, while ignoring all of the positive benefits.

Originally Posted by maztraz

Do you have eyes on whats happening in medical recherche??..I dont thinks so! And I don't think I know better then you whats happening exacly, thats the reason this is completly out of control under people we have no idea what are there real intentions and neither the ones that are governing the medical system...

Bring your own web page, and evidence ...And you might understand how hard it is to do all this, and you might understand alot also, and you will see your opinion will have a totaly different side of view on things...:035:

I'm willing to bet that I have a far deeper understanding of this issue than you, particularily in the area of animal testing. As some background, my area of study at UBC was neurobiology, and I did clinical studies courses as well as studying hormones and behaviour. Although genetics wasn't my primary area I did do a basic overview. So, other than reading articles on the web, where exactly did you acquire your extensive knowledge in this field?

As for some background on genetic research and the ethical issues involved
http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresource...ct/about.shtml

Originally Posted by maztraz

And then what nexts, new buddy or would prefer new brains...you will be needing that to!!! ;)
Your just replacing a other question with a other problematic, you don't know what futur will reserve you so don't be so naive, there is many probleme you ignore besides heart inplant...etc
You can just conclude that you've resolve a probleme by a other..its no solution man

Once again I'm making a leap to understand exactly what you are trying to say, but I'm still of the opinion that it's up to scientists to advance knowledge, and it's up to governments to regulate the uses of that knowledge. If you are worried about the effects of scientific progress than your issue isn't with the knowledgeand research itself but with the way we as a society through our governing bodies allow it to be used.

Originally Posted by maztraz

Anyway Cancer, I don't doubt that we can have easily cancer when we know that billions of people probably eat unhealthy shit everyday and then they wonder why they are sick(besides the fact that people are sick of natural causes), ''take your own responsabilities'' its a big community probleme constructing a other one, and keeps on going like a spining wheel etc..etc..etc...We don't realise it until it becomes a real community probleme, and then we are supprise the day that something bad has happened, just open your eyes and you will realize that its there not only for our health but for ''Governmental benefits''...

This is really off the topic don't you think? "It'd be wonderful if we all led healthier lives", yes that's 100% true. What's that got to do with the pros and cons of genetic research?

I'm done with this until you can carry on a proper argument by the way.

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by djmarkpaul

For that I will engage in a paltry debate I s'pose.

we're not worthy! we're not worthy!

[automatic]

Originally Posted by wum

I think it's a general rule of thumb is that whenever scientists mess with nature, the result is never good. People are only finding out now that eating a well balanced diet is much better than downing power bars and powerades or other kinds of lab made synthetic brews. Even something as benign as salt, when artificially made in the form of NaCl and lacking all the other complexities that come in salt from the ocean or the mines, makes us unhealthy.

Look at how they tell us not to eat too much carbs!! Normally, if you harvested wheat exclusively you would take all the nutrients in the soil in no time and you would only have a few seasons before 'dust bowl' conditions set in. Basically grain has too much energy then is required and we store it up as fat. But now since we mine for oil it's possible to extract nitrites and other fertilizers to fortify the soil and we can eat grain products indefinately.

We need to stop messing with nature and go back to organic farming :)

Whenever scientists mess with nature the result is never good? Guess you're yearning to live in a world before smallpox immunation was invented huh? Or insulin, electricity or anything associated with the modern world. It might be hard for you to hear this, but before science we didn't all live in some wonderful garden of eden, our lives were short, brutish, and violent. All of your expostulating about foods make sperfect sense, but has nothing to do with the issues of genetic testing, and if you REALLY think we should go back to worldwide strictly organic farming then maybe you'd like to be in charge of the lottery we'd have to hold to see which percentage of the north american population gets to die as a sacrifice so that the rest of us get to lead healthier lives....made you think, huh?

[Senior]

Originally Posted by automatic

Whenever scientists mess with nature the result is never good? Guess you're yearning to live in a world before smallpox immunation was invented huh? Or insulin, electricity or anything associated with the modern world. It might be hard for you to hear this, but before science we didn't all live in some wonderful garden of eden, our lives were short, brutish, and violent. All of your expostulating about foods make sperfect sense, but has nothing to do with the issues of genetic testing, and if you REALLY think we should go back to worldwide strictly organic farming then maybe you'd like to be in charge of the lottery we'd have to hold to see which percentage of the north american population gets to die as a sacrifice so that the rest of us get to lead healthier lives....made you think, huh?

I think the real problem is that our food production is dependant on oil. From the diesel used in the tractors, the fertilizers and pesticides and down to the tires that the semi trailer uses to deliver the food to us. Scientests agree that peak oil is not a question of if but when and for the global foos supply that will mean a lot of things. So whether we've already reached peak oil or it's still another 30 years away it will happen and when it does you can say goodbye to the 2000 mile salad.

Genetic foods might be safe but for now I'd rather not have them tested on me.

Also WTF science hasn't done anything good for us? Science has created many problems and increased others but I wouldn't go as far as to say we're better off without it.

[automatic]

^^ 100% agree, but the problem is not with the research into gmo crops, it's the speed with which the fruit of that research is allowed to make its way on to our tables.

[Senior]

Originally Posted by automatic

^^ 100% agree, but the problem is not with the research into gmo crops, it's the speed with which the fruit of that research is allowed to make its way on to our tables.

Also a really big problem is that the few companies that are doing the bulk of the work with GMO's (lead by Monsanto) don't give a fuck about you, me or starving kids in Africa. They are like any other corporation out for the money. If you look at the patents that are being registered for GMO's it's mostly stuff like round up ready crops that are designed for Monsanto's other product the pesticide round up. Then you have the terminator gene crops that render seeds that can not be re-used for next years crops, forcing farmers to buy them every year.

[wum]

......

[Senior]

Originally Posted by wum

That seems like a pretty risky move to pretty sacrifice two countries that are like bedrocks of Islam, but I'm listening...

Really it's just simple guerrilla tactics. No one country can defeat the US empire but many could fighting the US at the same time. Especially the way things are going with the US occupation in Iraq. It was said by many people within and outside the military that just because they had enough troops to conquer Iraq didn't mean they had enough to occupy. As it stands the US will probably be in Iraq for at least the next 10 years and that takes a lot of money and resources. Now just imagine if they invade Iran, Syria, and North Korea.

[maztraz]

Originally Posted by automatic

sigh....this would be so much easier if you had a proper grasp of the english language

besides the fact that this sentence doesn't really make much sense, i was just pointing out that originally, other than saying "look at this, isn't it sick" you really didn't come up with any concrete reasons why we should worry about this kind of stuff.



Viruses progress on their own, mutations happen, and that's got nothing to do with technowledgy or scientific research. From AIDS to SARS to the Asian Bird Flu those were all naturally occurring virsuses that mutated and crossed species, not something that came about as the product of research. Unless you believe the more out-there conspiracy theorists there's never been such thing as an "artificial" or engineered virus let loose in the world. Ironically, genetic research may very well prove to be the most powerful tool available to combat viruses.



This is actually two points, one about viruses which i've adressed above, and another about animal testing, where you seem to be saying that you are against ALL animal clinical testing, which is fine, but in that case this should be an argument about animal testing in general, not about genetic research in particular.



You're starting to ramble a bit here my friend, but what you seem to be saying is that unbridled technological growth is bad for the species, to which i'd reply that it's not the enriching of scientific knowledge which is bad, but the way that we as humans use that knowledge. It's kind of like saying that electricty is bad because look at thow many people it kills every year, while ignoring all of the positive benefits.



I'm willing to bet that I have a far deeper understanding of this issue than you, particularily in the area of animal testing. As some background, my area of study at UBC was neurobiology, and I did clinical studies courses as well as studying hormones and behaviour. Although genetics wasn't my primary area I did do a basic overview. So, other than reading articles on the web, where exactly did you acquire your extensive knowledge in this field?

As for some background on genetic research and the ethical issues involved
http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresource...ct/about.shtml



Once again I'm making a leap to understand exactly what you are trying to say, but I'm still of the opinion that it's up to scientists to advance knowledge, and it's up to governments to regulate the uses of that knowledge. If you are worried about the effects of scientific progress than your issue isn't with the knowledgeand research itself but with the way we as a society through our governing bodies allow it to be used.



This is really off the topic don't you think? "It'd be wonderful if we all led healthier lives", yes that's 100% true. What's that got to do with the pros and cons of genetic research?

I'm done with this until you can carry on a proper argument by the way.

Okay first I would like to say That we don't answer for others, so please learn to answer what is ment to be questioning you, and not others if you want to stay in something stable, so defend your point of view and not others(they have different points from you)....I brote a few points that were maybe out of the topic but that were related in some ways with what is happening...

I think you have good points and you probably have as much know ledge then me, I don't have much on what is happening in Medical recherching, But if you want to keep your argues good,learn that even ''I'' learn from other peoples opinion even if people have less or more knowledge so learn to bring your agrues also on something possitive...

1. I didn't bring any concret reasons indeed, it doesn't mean that I havn't a opinion on this!

2. Did I say that those viruses were created by scientifics?no...
My point was like you said viruses go through species, and when we know that there is mass grow of Animals to make them food or other products, don't you think Viruses might be devoloping more easily and chances to be devoloping into our buddy like ''crazycow'' a few years ago(sorry not sure of the correct english term cause we call it VacheFolle in french)
So if you realy readed what I roted you would see that I do not ignore that there is good progress to science without this we'ed still have this, but the real cause would of never been there if there wasn't as much overproductivity pressure coming from the governments...

3. Yes, But I am argueing on this cause there is no limits like I said before, animal testing, and then cloning, and chimera (probably a few that I forgot) ''but you know what I mean'', my point was there is no limits if we don't put any, so what more? This keeps on going and that is what I am trying to show, animal testing that its getting more on more extreme and this will be getting even more of a problematic with the futur if we never put limits...!!!It has nothing to do with any scientifique better progressing world its all about political profits and etc.. They will probably have a other argue to be taxing thousands of $$$ again for a treatment(We don't know who will be able to afford that much yet)....If this was realy for a better progressing scientific world we'ed maybe start by less poluting the environment and stop killing in dangered species..

4. Your also repeatingly answering on the same questions and argues
I do not ignore the posstive effect how many times do I need to repeat it, I think it has nothing to do with any good reasons on the actual recherche, and once again I am against Animal testing...
And no I would rether say ''Electricity is usefull, but it gets realy extreme when people do not learn to modorate and conserve the energy use, that is precious resource
(perfect exemple of total energy wasting USA)''

5.Maybe but I have a realists point of view on political reality and thats enough to bring argues, sorry 2nd paragraphe wasn't adressed for for you..

6.was not adressed for you, so theres nothing for you to be answering it, thank you

7. It was maybe no directly about the topic but it was relating in some ways to it, and my point of view to what is happening into society when we want to progress scienficly we better progress on to a better health care system and the things that are poluting us everyday and puting it into that, instead puting money into something that is pretending to bring better causes for society, and you know what I mean by this...We've all known the results of eating unhealty shit, poluted lung, ichy skin and side effects...etc

We all know what this is leading us...We better be fighting for something that realy needs to be changes instead of bringing argues on things that have a good cause like chimera...
we can all bring things that a favorable to our civilation but after its to
know what is our priority and whats not..(in that case do we realy need to invests millions of dollars into Chimera?I think there is priorities)

[Van Tek]

Is it just me or is the general spelling and grammar in this debate absolutely terrible?

It's hard to even read these arguments, which have little to no relation to the topic at hand, because half of the words are spelled completely wrong.

This is why I think we should stop researching medicine and let the weak and stupid kill themselves off. Why do we need people on this planet who drink poisonous liquids on purpose and then go to the hospital to be saved from death... Or people who actually need to read the cautionary writing on things like coffee to know that (shockingly enough) it's HOT.

I took a walk today around Metrotown Mall and was hit by the sudden realization that the dregs of society are no longer the minority... Society has become its own cesspool of retardation and commercialism... You don't need to look any farther than the guys wearing earrings and unbent ball caps and jackets with fur-trimmed hoods on them to realize that we're all fucked beyond any redemption. The girls are no better, either... They'd rather be hot than intelligent. They'd rather get a manicure than learn something new.

Fuck the debates, fuck the states, fuck everything else, even if all of the people in power died off and left us to our own devices, we'd still be fucked.

We don't need chimeras and gargoyles and goblins to be on a path of destruction... Just TVs and shopping malls that sell stupid shit.

[wum]

Originally Posted by automatic

Whenever scientists mess with nature the result is never good? Guess you're yearning to live in a world before smallpox immunation was invented huh? Or insulin, electricity or anything associated with the modern world. It might be hard for you to hear this, but before science we didn't all live in some wonderful garden of eden, our lives were short, brutish, and violent. All of your expostulating about foods make sperfect sense, but has nothing to do with the issues of genetic testing, and if you REALLY think we should go back to worldwide strictly organic farming then maybe you'd like to be in charge of the lottery we'd have to hold to see which percentage of the north american population gets to die as a sacrifice so that the rest of us get to lead healthier lives....made you think, huh?

Insuliln isn't problem free, and in fact a lot vaccines have been linked to brain damage. We've lost a lot of knowledge of medicine because the Church monopolized the practice of medicine in Europe and turned women healers into 'witches.' It's been a huge set back. And I could totally live without electricity :)

Think about this for a moment. Humans have adapted to nature's food for thousands and thousands of years. How can any man-made tinkering be better suited to what human bodies are used to? It just doesn't make sense. It can only do harm.

As for going back to organic farming, it's totally possible. It will require more people, and we won't have the unnaturally high urbanization rates we have of today where it's something like 90% city versus 10% rural. It would probably make people less consumerist and there would be a renaissance in community.

[Goat]

You're all fat.
This conversation is over.

[automatic]

Originally Posted by Thanatos

Is it just me or is the general spelling and grammar in this debate absolutely terrible?

It's hard to even read these arguments, which have little to no relation to the topic at hand, because half of the words are spelled completely wrong.

This is why I think we should stop researching medicine and let the weak and stupid kill themselves off. Why do we need people on this planet who drink poisonous liquids on purpose and then go to the hospital to be saved from death... Or people who actually need to read the cautionary writing on things like coffee to know that (shockingly enough) it's HOT.

I took a walk today around Metrotown Mall and was hit by the sudden realization that the dregs of society are no longer the minority... Society has become its own cesspool of retardation and commercialism... You don't need to look any farther than the guys wearing earrings and unbent ball caps and jackets with fur-trimmed hoods on them to realize that we're all fucked beyond any redemption. The girls are no better, either... They'd rather be hot than intelligent. They'd rather get a manicure than learn something new.

Fuck the debates, fuck the states, fuck everything else, even if all of the people in power died off and left us to our own devices, we'd still be fucked.

We don't need chimeras and gargoyles and goblins to be on a path of destruction... Just TVs and shopping malls that sell stupid shit.

maztraz's grammar and spelling is pretty bad, but then again french is his first language, so that can be forgiven.....

my grammar and spelling is impecable!

[maztraz]

Yeah I know, its not the first time people tell me that, I'm doing my best to try to get my spelling and grammar progressing....
But the principal is the message that I'm trying to give, spelling is just a small detail compared to the probleme we're argueing about...:D:

[maztraz]

Originally Posted by Goat

You're all fat.
This conversation is over.

hmm sorry we have no orders to receive from you, this conversation will be over when it needs to be over, not cause you desided, so please go play with people of your stereotip, and let us speak on what we want to be speaking about..under my respect

''Can you respect that?''

peace