If You're a Christian, Muslim or Jew - You are Wrong

[Gusto]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cenk-u...mu_b_9349.html

An interesting rant that brings up some interesting, valid points.

[Cdn_Brdr]

You're right... that is quite the rant but he most defintiely brings up some interesting and valid points. He sure as hell didn't sugar coat it for anyone!

[sidekick]

i don't agree with organized religions but that guy comes off sounding a little he wrote that just to see how many people he could offend.

being muslim or jewish or christian doesn't mean you're wrong. people who think that they have everything figured out with logic are the ones that are going to end up getting slapped in the face later when they realize that sometimes (for some reason) the world doesn't always deal in logical ways.

edit: i mean come on, the guy talks about how stupid people have to be to believe the stories in the bible or that there is a god etc... but what about how stupid people had to beleive that the sun revolved around the earth or that the earth was flat?

science has been proven wrong again and again and again...what makes him think that we have all the answers this time. believing in science as the one truth is just as stupid as believing that there is a god and a heaven.

[Gusto]

agreed, he was out to offend people, just thought i'd post it, because it was interesting. the thing is that even if he is right on every account and all of those things were made up, that doesn't make the idea of religion inherently wrong. religion can still provide good foundation on how to lead your life, can still offer a sense of community to those that need it, etc. fact or fiction, it has it's place.

[sidekick]

exactly. and he says that people who believe in science are the minority. what a load of bullshit. people can beleive in religion AND science. and both of them are a fairytale...science is just a fairytale that you can experiment on. everything we think we know changes from year to year.

[Sykonee]

Originally Posted by Sidekick

science has been proven wrong again and again and again...what makes him think that we have all the answers this time. believing in science as the one truth is just as stupid as believing that there is a god and a heaven.

Science isn't any one truth, it's the search for the truth through dedicated observation and experimentation. Ideas that were garnered as scientific fact ages ago were done so because the powers of observation and experimentation were limited. Thanks to modern technology, we have been able to unlock more secrets of the Cosmos than our ancestors could ever have dreamed of. And, of course, with such discoveries comes new interpretations of how things are. A scientist will often concede that what they've discovered probably is not be the ultimate answer, but merely another piece in a larger puzzle that is blank to us because we do not have the appropriate pieces to connect them together. Hence, for instance, the search for a unifying equation that makes all physics make sense even at the quantum level.

Most religions don't do this. They fill in their blanks with a God or Gods until proven otherwise.

"We need to move on from politics and religion, and forward to science and spirituality." -Arthur C. Clarke, quoting someone else I forget the name of. ;)

[Gusto]

Originally Posted by Sidekick

exactly. and he says that people who believe in science are the minority. what a load of bullshit. people can beleive in religion AND science. and both of them are a fairytale...science is just a fairytale that you can experiment on. everything we think we know changes from year to year.

haha yeah, that's why i'd never call myself an atheist. agnostic, at the very least. i mean really, what do i know?

[b0ld]

Originally Posted by Sidekick

science has been proven wrong again and again and again...what makes him think that we have all the answers this time. believing in science as the one truth is just as stupid as believing that there is a god and a heaven.

your right.... however science is one of those things that as much as man tries to figure out as to how we have evolved it changes all the time. At least with science we can visually see something. I never seen god or never seen jesus.... I seen and read "the bible" what makes me to believe it??? Might as well believe my stephen king book "it" and the story behind it. I mean hell all I can do is visualize it in my head and pretend and then believe..... what ignorance.....

[Sykonee]

Originally Posted by b0ld

your right.... however science is one of those things that as much as man tries to figure out as to how we have evolved it changes all the time. At least with science we can visually see something. I never seen god or never seen jesus.... I seen and read "the bible" what makes me to believe it??? Might as well believe my stephen king book "it" and the story behind it. I mean hell all I can do is visualize it in my head and pretend and then believe..... what ignorance.....

No, no! You have it wrong. You're supposed to have faith that it is true. And with faith comes a lot of philosophical quandries.

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by b0ld

your right.... however science is one of those things that as much as man tries to figure out as to how we have evolved it changes all the time. At least with science we can visually see something. I never seen god or never seen jesus.... I seen and read "the bible" what makes me to believe it??? Might as well believe my stephen king book "it" and the story behind it. I mean hell all I can do is visualize it in my head and pretend and then believe..... what ignorance.....

there are so many things in science that we can't see that we think we know about. how do we know that when we look at the nucleus through a microscope we are seeing what is actually there? aren't we just trusting machines and computers?

yes, i know that science is the everlasting search for new knowledge. i was just pointing out that you can't call religious people stupid for believing in what they believe since science has to do with belief as well.

there are lots of things that science can't explain on its own. i believe logic is extremely important, but sometimes logic just doesn't explain everything.

we think we have this world figured out pretty much. what would happen if we found out that one of the basic things we learned in science turns out to be untrue? it's happened in the past many times. i wonder why we think we have it so well figured out this time.

edit: i know this is a pretty philosophical argument in the sense of 'how do we know what we're seeing is true'.

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by Sykonee

No, no! You have it wrong. You're supposed to have faith that it is true. And with faith comes a lot of philosophical quandries.

science deals with faith as well. like you were saying before we have to have faith that what we know right now is true enough to continue experimenting and build on that knowledge. then we learn something where we find out that we were wrong about the first thing and have to start over.

disclaimer: i am anti-religion. i just think this guy is overstating and oversimplifying everything.

[Sykonee]

Originally Posted by Sidekick

science deals with faith as well. like you were saying before we have to have faith that what we know right now is true enough to continue experimenting and build on that knowledge. then we learn something where we find out that we were wrong about the first thing and have to start over.

disclaimer: i am anti-religion. i just think this guy is overstating and oversimplifying everything.

True, to a degree. Science's faith, as mentioned, stems from what we've observed is true, and only when enough tests have been utilized to prove it do we believe it whole-heartedly. A great deal of scientific theory is still just that: theory -but theory that makes a lot of sense from what we have so far observed.

Religious faith is about what we cannot know, but trust is true irregardless. It's like that scene in Last Crusade, where Indy has to take a 'leap of faith'. He cannot know there is a bridge there, but, because he has faith God will guide him, he will take the step anyways. Fortunately for him, God decided it would be a good idea to place a camoflauged walkway across that bottomless pit.

[sidekick]

^yeah, i do agree with you. i was basically just annoyed at his oversimplification of everything. he came off sounding just as retarded as he claimed everyone else to be.

[dave mcnasty]

fuck i just wrote something really long and my internet fucked up so i'm just gonna say this guy was right....he wasnt trying to offend anyone.....but naturally when he's speaking on behalf of the minority (the informed), he's going to offend the majority (the ignorant).

Of course science is going to be wrong from time to time....but at this day and age, the mistakes aren't as great as considering the world to be flat...Science is always improving and you've got to be among The Ignorant to compare religion so closely with science.

Science is infinitely progressing, while Religion is still preaching 2000 year old fairytales.

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by McNasty

fuck i just wrote something really long and my internet fucked up so i'm just gonna say this guy was right....he wasnt trying to offend anyone.....but naturally when he's speaking on behalf of the minority (the informed), he's going to offend the majority (the ignorant).

Of course science is going to be wrong from time to time....but at this day and age, the mistakes aren't as great as considering the world to be flat...Science is always improving and you've got to be among The Ignorant to compare religion so closely with science.

Science is infinitely progressing, while Religion is still preaching 2000 year old fairytales.

there are many people that are religious and believe in science. religion doesn't always mean that you believe in all the crazy bible stories. some people just like the ritual and community of going to church (don't ask me why though). my dad is a completely logic and scientific guy, but he's jewish and believes in god. does this make him an idiot? i don't think so.

idiocy only comes into the picture when you try to push your religious beliefs on other people. that is where this guy oversimplifies things. not everyone that believes in religion believes everything about the religion or pushes it onto people. are you stupid because you're christian? of course not. his argument is too black and white. he's ignoring the non-crazy religious people. there are crazy scientists as well (i think we have all seen frankenstein).

there is no clear-cut majority of religious people vs. minority of science people. the lines are all blurred. you're in an idiot if you believe that it's that simple.

you think i'm ignorant because i was comparing religion to science in some ways? i never said they are closely related. i just said that science takes some faith as well.

ps. isn't great how everyone puts themselves in the 'informed' minority category agains the massive ignorant majority. the world rarely works like that i think.

[mapleleaf4ever]

This thread has been pretty much progressing just the way I forsaw it.

[dave mcnasty]

Honestly....if you believe in God....it's no different than believing in all of the religion bullshit. You're still believing in something that was invented by ignorant people 2000 years ago.

I bet if you knew some of the God's a Polynesian tribe believed in you would just look at them like a bunch of idiots. Christianity is the same thing on a much larger scale. If the Polynesians happened to be the majority of the people in the world, then everyone would be worshiping their Sun gods and Rain gods the way our society worships Jesus.

It's really no different....except for that so many people in the world follow it so it doesn't seem unusual.

i'm not even gonna bother arguing about science with you cuz you are obviously misinformed in that area as well.....frankenstein? it's a fuckin movie. The little faith science requires, as you say, is called theory.....it's usually been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena....until proven completely. It's completely different than having faith in, and praying to, a God you have never seen, and will never see.

[fable]

The definition of religeon for me is spirtuality, and a oneness with a prescribed higher being which is then practised and developed through some sort of code or "teachings" in a group dynamic. Thus im not a really a fan of religeon as it sets up an environment for far too much conflict(and has) which i really cant deal with. So i am curently trying to develop a spirtual life instead, on my own, perhaps with some guidance from time to time.

But i digress, Science to me always held the definiiton of " a series of recorded observations of an occurance in the world in a specific environment" which is then transformed into a coherant idea, that illustrated an explanation of said phenomenon.

I see the similarities in both religeon and science, in that both seem to only be "validated" when there is an undeniable support from a specific group, whether fellow followers of a specific "godly" faith, or those who both understand and are able to define what message "scientific" observation show them. I also think that science and religeon share common, social similarities, in that both include a specifc amount of intangibles which are in some shape or from, considered when coming to either scientific hypothesis or religeous contemplation. (ie. both account for a specific amount of "flukes" or "deviations")

I think that when combined the resulting practise of exploration and belief is a powerful thing, i think that the conflict between the two are artificial and created by practioners of both approaches who feel the other appraoch is non valid. Science seems to look at the tangible occurances, where as religeon seeks to fill in the intangiles with such terms as faith, destiny and spirtuality.

I say use them both, and fuck all the naysayers. What is there to lose in the course of exploration? I dont think there is a negetive for the search and validation of knowledge, i think negetives can only exsist in how we choose to use such knowledge.

one of my personal heroes is the Mahatma, Ghandi, and he belived that:

An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody will see it.

Even as wisdom often comes from the mouths of babes, so does it often come from the mouths of old people. The golden rule is to test everything in the light of reason and experience, no matter from where it comes.

A religion that takes no account of practical affairs and does not help to solve them is no religion.

Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.

Human society is a ceaseless growth, an unfoldment in terms of spirituality.

Spiritual relationship is far more precious than physical. Physical relationship divorced from spiritual is body without soul.

I think im going to be studying his words till i die, but somewhere in the contradictions and twists and turn of the philosphies of ghandi, i find a amalgamation of the precepts of "religeon" and "science" and ultimatley an understanding that perhaps its actaully about "spirtuality" and "quantative knowledge" aka physical awareness AND intuition.

good post! got me thinkn...............

action+mobilization

[Asheai]

I think that the writer of this rant is just attempting a wake-up call, he is oversimplifying it, but I don't believe he meant to go into great detail. I would be interested in hearing his views, even if I don't agree with anything 100%. I, personally, am agnostic to atheist... I don't really know, but I certainly don't believe in organized religion. Anyways, I think it was an interesting post :).

[RoxyBeBe]

Originally Posted by Sykonee

"We need to move on from politics and religion, and forward to science and spirituality." -Arthur C. Clarke, quoting someone else I forget the name of. ;)

I couldn't agree more!

[fable]

Honestly....if you believe in God....it's no different than believing in all of the religion bullshit. You're still believing in something that was invented by ignorant people 2000 years ago.

Im not a stringently strong supported of god myself, but i counter your comment with the fact that the precepts and ideas of "god" have been subjected to as much tranformations as we humans have throughout time and evolution. Why are the people who lived 2000 years ago "ignorant?" I agree that they may "know less" than we do now, but its some what reletive, considering that there maybe a genration that looks down at us in another 2000 years with the same idea. But thats not really the point, what i wanted to ask was, isnt there a tanginble possibility that civilizations 2000 years ago may have "known more" than us today, and in fact WE become more and more ignorant everyday? aka We choose to listen to our "senses" more and more everyday as we grow - sight, smell, touch, hearing, tasting, but couldnt we consider the idea that "continous stimulation' is in fact dulling our senses ,and perhaps pushing us towards completely ignoring our intangible senses aka "that gut feeling" or "intuition" or "spirtual awareness?"

I bet if you knew some of the God's a Polynesian tribe believed in you would just look at them like a bunch of idiots. Christianity is the same thing on a much larger scale. If the Polynesians happened to be the majority of the people in the world, then everyone would be worshiping their Sun gods and Rain gods the way our society worships Jesus.

Er, uh? Im not too sure, but this is somewhat redundant isnt it? Nonetheless many a polynesian tribe (im fijian myslef) also practise christianity as a result of britsh colonization. But even if they dont, why would they be idiots? And how different is it from christianity~catholosism? Perhaps the "higher beings" look different, or talk differently or hell are even different animals, but the idea of a "higher being" or a group of "higher beings" who symbolizse a higher state of consciousness seems pretty relevent in a lot of religeons for the most part.

It's really no different....except for that so many people in the world follow it so it doesn't seem unusual.

i'm not even gonna bother arguing about science with you cuz you are obviously misinformed in that area as well.....frankenstein? it's a fuckin movie. The little faith science requires, as you say, is called theory.....it's usually been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena....until proven completely. It's completely different than having faith in, and praying to, a God you have never seen, and will never see.

Faith and theory both involve a level of the "unknown" but unlike theory, faith inviolves a belief that is not dependant at all on the notion that some tangible evidence may in fact come along. If theory is perpetually blind, it will cease to exist, whereas blind faith could last infinetly.

i tend to lean more towards science myself, as my level of spirtual maturity and development is still somewhat new, but i belive the REAL IDIOCY lies in an idea that one must either choose science or religeon. There is still so much that is unknown, hell im sure your probably no older than 27, s how can you rule things out so blatantly?

What if science is just an alternate routes to get towards an ultimate spirtaul ideal? ie. Learning to write by observing others, vs. learning to write by listening, and trying yourself. The differences are very subtle, an although the "costumes" both science and religeon adorn themselves in, may be different, at this point in my life, i find it plausible that both are "two sides of the same coin?"


Keep your educational peripherals open wide, confusion and ignorance is more fun that way. You feel younger longer too! :)

action+mobilization
fable

[ebbomega]

From the 5th ed. introduction to the Principia Discordia (i love this quote)

"Every few thousand years some shepard inhales smoke from a burning bush and has a vision or eats moldy rye bread in a cave and sees God. From then on their followers kill one another at the slightest provocation. Haunted houses called temples are built by one side and torn down by another - and then bloody quarrels continue over the crumbling foundations."

[ebbomega]

PS: Faith has nothing to do with belief.

[Alex]

that's awesome. I wrote a similiar essay in AP lit back in HS, my lit teacher(an agnostic) graded my essay an A, removed my name, and passed it around the teachers staff meeting. Apparently, it caused quite an uproar.

[dave mcnasty]

Originally Posted by fable

Why are the people who lived 2000 years ago "ignorant?" I agree that they may "know less" than we do now, but its some what reletive, considering that there maybe a genration that looks down at us in another 2000 years with the same idea. But thats not really the point, what i wanted to ask was, isnt there a tanginble possibility that civilizations 2000 years ago may have "known more" than us today, and in fact WE become more and more ignorant everyday?

I don't think I have to bother explaining why people 2000 years ago were less intelligent than us today.....And if the world was going to last 2000 years further....those people would be able to discuss our deficiencies too. The fact is those people 2000 years ago were more ignorant.....they lacked the scientific knowledge of evolution and deep time that we use to explain our origins today. So.....they create a God, who, easily enough, created everything himself. Problem solved.

Originally Posted by fable

Er, uh? Im not too sure, but this is somewhat redundant isnt it? Nonetheless many a polynesian tribe (im fijian myslef) also practise christianity as a result of britsh colonization. But even if they dont, why would they be idiots? And how different is it from christianity~catholosism? Perhaps the "higher beings" look different, or talk differently or hell are even different animals, but the idea of a "higher being" or a group of "higher beings" who symbolizse a higher state of consciousness seems pretty relevent in a lot of religeons for the most part.

I only mentioned a Polynesian tribe for an example.....You could look at any African or Asian religion or even ancient Greece, ......They're all the same in that they create, and worship a bunch of Gods that are different from the Christian God. And If you were to look today at the Greek god's of Sun and Ocean and Love and Fertility or whatever gods they had....you would be like what the fuck? And just think of them as myth. I know when I see a bunch of tribe people dancing around a fire doing some ritual I'm like wtf? But Christianity and its all powerful God is no different. It's just more popular around the world....so it's rituals and prayers and customs aren't considered unusual.

Originally Posted by fable

Faith and theory both involve a level of the "unknown" but unlike theory, faith inviolves a belief that is not dependant at all on the notion that some tangible evidence may in fact come along. If theory is perpetually blind, it will cease to exist, whereas blind faith could last infinetly.

Sure you can blindly believe in something forever....so what

theory is not perpetually blind.....it's blind until it's proven. And since some theories can never be proven (such as certain astronomical theories), they are just worked out to the point where they're very logical, and probable, and then widely accepted by the scientific community as a systematically organized body of knowledge.


And I'm not saying you have to choose Religion or Science....I really don't care. I just don't believe in Religion because I know it was made up by people who couldn't explain anything....and now that we can explain things, I really don't think we need to rely on such ancient nonsense.