Apr 25, 04
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for me jib is horribly addictive! i dunno why, it's just so fun for me. meh.. whatever? 
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Apr 25, 04
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Holy crap dude. All I asked for was info about how MDMA affects the pineal gland. I looked thru a few sites, and found nothing in particular about E + pineal gland. so do you have a source on it or are you just, dare I say, full of shit? (ps don't get your horse too high) Last edited by Rytalin; Apr 25, 04 at 06:12 PM.
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Apr 25, 04
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^ Thanks for the bad karma, asshole.
Looking for this kind of information on sites like bluelight and erowid wont get you anything except for unsubstantiated "facts" from hippy pseudo-scientists. ps. I wonder if anyone else gets the irony of your pig reference... pps. If anyone's a bit uppity about this stuff it's you...feigning expertise on topics your dumb CDIS educated brain will never comprehend. BRING ON THE BARRAGE OF NEGATIVE KARMA
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Apr 26, 04
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they're a group of substances that could have a wealth of uses if used in controlled settings, but instead, for some reason, they're bashed and demonized by the media, and people who use them for mystical experience are looked down upon by 'normal' people. its pretty sad to see a group of substances with so much potential just get swept under the carpet like this. but oh well. pass the zooloft. (Its good for my brain cos my doctor said)
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Apr 26, 04
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they're only bashed and demonized by the media because of the (pardon the cliche) "few bad apples" that have spoiled the bunch. I hate to be the one to tell you this, but you definitely aren't the poster child for showing people that one can experiment with drugs and simultaneously lead a normal and productive life. Quote:
how dare the medical and scientific community present long-time sufferers of mental health illnesses with treatment options that can work. maybe, just maybe though, the ignorance you speak of goes both ways. have you ever though of that?
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Apr 26, 04
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http://www.erowid.org/library/books_...l/pihkal.shtml http://www.erowid.org/library/books_...l/tihkal.shtml Quote:
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I have a friend who's been addicted to Paxil for 10 years. When she first got on it, her doctor told her it would help her deal with her depression and sort her head out. Now she can't get off of it cos the withdrawl symptoms are just too intense. Do you call that 'working'? don't get me wrong, I think SSRI's are one useful path to take, but they shouldn't be the only one. Quote:
I'm probably ignorant of alot of established medical knowledge. I don't have the time to go to university to cram it all in. I find following my intuition and common sense works fine for me. I've found its alot easier for me to figure my brain out by taking some acid and meditating than reading a 6 inch thick medical book full of really big words. please excuse my dumb cdis educated brain. but back to what I was wondering before all this... what effects does MDMA have on the pineal gland?
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Apr 26, 04
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I don't get it at all. Shulgin conducted a lot of his "research" and experiments in clandestine labs. His credentials are somewhat credible, but not enough to take every single opinion he has as fact. I don't think any drugs should be researched without strict parameters and guidelines. Quote:
A lot of people abuse opiates, but that doesn't stop opiate derivatives from being prescribed for pain control. Any addictive substance can be abused. Quote:
Why did she keep taking a medication for ten years if it didn't work? That's pretty fucking retarded of her. If she'd taken control of her own health, she would have gotten a second, third, and fourth opinion, until she found someone who could help her. At the very least, she should have known that most people have to try a few anti-depressants before finding one that works for them. Something tells me that your friend was probably seeing a GP for her problems and didn't bother trying to get a referral to a psychiatrist. Most medications have withdrawl symptoms. That's nothing new. Again, you can't just stop taking anti-depressants. She should have gradually decreased the dosage. Next time you're trying to make a point, try using a bigger sample size. Quote:
Listen, i'm not saying that drugs are bad, or that they can't help people deal with their issues. What I am saying is that there isn't enough research to prove otherwise. So until then, i'm not going to experiment with them for those purposes. I'll do them for fun on occasion, but even those occasions are getting fewer and farther in between. Quote:
Do you honestly think that doing all that stuff doesn't do any harm to your brain? You can't be for real. If alcohol causes brain damage, how can LSD not cause brian damage? All you have to do is take a look at someone who's done a shitload of acid to know that it really fucks you up. Quote:
Here's a link from UC Berkley. http://mdma.net/serotonin/p-cpa.html another university website That's just what I got from google. I don't read anything from non-research based websites about stuff like this. Again, if you want to know more about this, take a trip out to UBC and use the library to access the hundreds of online phamacology and psych journals they have on this stuff. I can access the library server from home, and have found some pretty interesting articles on a lot of drug related subjects.
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Apr 26, 04
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He still synthesized, tested and documented a whole lot of different substances. Have you read any of Pikhal? Shulgin describes the effects of the substances he tries. He doesn't preach about mystical experience or any of that so called hippie crap. I don't see how his research should really be any less credible than government based drug research. Quote:
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Ok, so drugs with abuse potential still end up on the market cos they do have a practical use, despite the 'few bad apples' who like abusing them. But Psychadellic drug use in the 60s was no worse an epidemic than meth/heroin/etc addiction is today. Yet all government funded studies into psychadellics were pretty much dropped after the 60s, despite evidence of amazing healing potential in them. Why, I wonder? Quote:
what rock have you been under? and who said it didn't work? generally drugs that don't work are pretty hard to get addicted to.... This one time I tried getiing myself addicted to railing flour..... didn't work no matter how hard I tried..... but I digress . . http://www.google.ca/search?q=paxil+...-8&hl=en&meta= There is much documentation and media coverage now on how paxil DOES have harsh withdrawl symptoms. I'd think you would have learned, seeing how your in university and such. Quote:
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There's some to start. Quote:
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You know how much is in a normal dose of acid? around 100-200 migrograms. 250 mics is a good strong dose. how much alcohol does it take to get drunk again? (I don't really drink much anymore) Thing is too, you control EVERY aspect of your trip. It's all in your head. (hence why it can be useful in figuring your brain out) If you get on a bad trip, you did it to yourself. And that can be easily avoided by a bit of education on things like set and setting. acid's just a tool. If I climbed a really tall ladder, looked at the city from high up, got vertigo and fell off, would it be the ladder's fault or mine? (thanks for the links)
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Apr 27, 04
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One man's research is definitely less credible than research conducted by an agency like the NIH. Did he have access to high quality pharmaceutical grade chemicals? Where did he get them from after the goverment limited his access to their supply? Do you get it now, research conducted in someone's basement, no matter how smart they are, is no substitute for professional scientific research. You could be the most brilliant scientist in the world, but if your colleagues don't respect you and you don't present yourself in a professional manner, you have zero credibility. <--- that word means the quality or power of inspiring belief , btw. Quote:
More people benefit from prescribed stimulant drugs than abuse them. Just like morphine phobia. For the longest time, nurses and doctors would limit the dosage needed for adequate pain control because they were afraid that their patients would become addicted to it. That's no longer the case because only about .04% of people who take morphine for an extended period of time ever get addicted to it. Quote:
I'll dumb it down for you. Take chemotherapy drugs for example. They kill healthy cells along with cancerous ones; however, the benefits of undergoing chemo far outweigh the damage that's caused to the healthy cells. Quote:
I think it's probably because there wasn't much evidence of that "amazing healing potential". Because if there was, and your theory about pharmaceutical companies only developing drugs they can make tonnes of money off of is correct, there would have been a huge rush to research them. The government doesn't need to fund huge studies anymore, pharmaceutical companies have enough money to put into the research and development of any potential drug. Quote:
Withdrawl doesn't necessarily signify addiction. People throw those words around too easily when they refer to drugs. Withdrawal is a term used to describe the effects that a person experiences when he or she stops taking a particular drug whether the drug is legal or illegal. When you're taking about addiction in pharmacological terms, the definition is as follows: Drug dependence (addiction) is compulsive use of a substance despite negative consequences which can be severe; drug abuse is simply excessive use of a drug or use of a drug for purposes for which it was not medically intended. Physical dependence on a substance (needing a drug to function) is not necessary or sufficient to define addiction. There are some substances that don't cause addiction but do cause physical dependence (for example, some blood pressure medications) and substances that cause addiction but not classic physical dependence (cocaine withdrawal, for example, doesn't have symptoms like vomiting and chills; it is mainly characterized by depression). Your friend wasn't addicted to Paxil. Quote:
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http://www.medhelp.org/forums/mental...chive/380.html http://www.medhelp.org/forums/mental...es/30975a.html I'm not sure what you wanted me to get out of your link. That people have a hard time discontinuing Paxil? No one's disputing that. Quote:
The answers to most questions are usually the simplest ones. Quote:
If a simple, tiny molecule like alcohol can fuck people up so much, why would acid be any safer? Quote:
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Can you learn stuff about how neurotransmitters function? Is an acid trip kind of like a life-sized, real time demonstration of how the brain works...kind of like being in an interactive Science World demonstration? If you talking about introspection with you talk about "figuring your brain out", is dropping acid the only way of doing that? I wonder who the Dalai Lama's acid supplier is... He must be getting some premium grade shit. Quote:
Sorry I can't say the same for yours. edit: I had to throw in a Scientology reference in there...couldn't help myself. Last edited by diva; Apr 27, 04 at 02:20 AM.
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Apr 27, 04
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maybe you should read the rest of the thread. or go look at some statistics, cos they're probably more credible than a bunch of ravers with firsthand experience. Quote:
http://www.mindmined.com/public_libr...earch.html#bio (that's all I could find in the time I have) The best I can figure is they dropped psychadellic research because of hippie uprisings in the 60s. They saw the (apparent) mind freeing power these drugs could have on the general public and pulled the plug in favor of more controllable substances. Quote:
I can't really argue it anymore, I'm not on it and never have been. All I know is what I've read, and what people I know who are on paxil have told me. As far as credibility goes, I wouldn't nessassarily trust what the pharmaceutical companies say 100% as far as Paxil goes. Do cigarette companies tell people tobacco is addictive? btw when I say something's addictive, I mean that people have difficulty discontinuing its use. Quote:
I'm starting to get lost amoung all this university medical jargon. Quote:
that makes me chuckle. I hate conspiracy theorists too. paranoid bastards. Good thing The Spirit Molecule wasn't written by one. Quote:
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You'd have to try it to know for sure. I haven't gone that deep yet, but I don't doubt that you could if you were ready for it. Quote:
do I really have to answer that? Of course its not. It's kind of a shortcut though, along with other psychadellic drugs. It speeds up the process a whole lot. not something for everyone. Quote:
I heard he trips with the pope alot.
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May 05, 04
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I beleive one very difficult information source is the school system where it seems people are taught to absorb information under the context that it is indeed fact where it is often not. We start to make assumptions and accepting most data to get passing grades. We start to look for the right answers to the tests instead of the right answers themselves. I feel that it is very important to learn How to think and how to process information not just overloading on “facts”. We often end the search with the fact that has been given to us instead of researching the source so we have time to move onto the next fact. This seems to get dangerous since once misinformation starts to spread as fact to the masses it’s hard to stop the infestation even after it’s been proven wrong.
Evaluating information from many institutions gets frustrating since misinformation often gets purposely masked as fact. Professional and licensed researchers often get funded by other institutions including governments to prove certain bias outcomes. Independent funding and grants lead them to find a way to prove results any way possible. These reports are often published and spread widely and accepted as truth since it was done by “experts”. One example would be George Ricaurte’s ( http://www.mdma.net/toxicity/george-ricaurte.htm ) Severe Dopaminergic Neurotoxicity in Primates After a Common Recreational Dose Regimen of MDMA ("Ecstasy"). ( http://www.mdma.net/toxicity/ricaurte.html ). This published study was later fully retracted since there was a major error, all but one of the monkeys we’re given methamphetamine, not MDMA ( http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma...esearch2.shtml ). Ricaurte is also known to have other bias, www.maps.org has been doing an excellent job logging these events ( http://www.maps.org/research/mdma/studyresponse.html ) Even now people state portions or what they have heard of Ricaurte’s as fact, the spread of misinformation continues even after the source has died completely. People like Ricaurte keep being taken as credible and it just adds more noise to the environment to sort through. People start to form bias upon other people’s bias feeling empowered by what they see as professional, researched, and correct. It was written in a university so it must be fact right? Just because someone has a degree or certificate doesn’t mean they are correct and doesn’t necessarily mean that they know more then someone who doesn’t. Information can be found everywhere, specifically when reading between the lines but one should take caution since even if a lot of the information is correct doesn’t mean that it all is. Really good articles provide a lot of good information but if one lets their guard down the misinformation seeps in. Continue researching all sources and research those sources, watch the wording and any bias. Many feel that they need to believe only one side or only read from one source because one seems less credible. I feel that it is important to read all of it and make sure you maintain what is speculation and what is more reputable. Examples would be reading Erowid.org experience vaults or reading Alexander Shulgin’s research and experiments ( http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/shulgin/ ) ( http://www.erowid.org/culture/charac...lexander.shtml ). With Erowid and Shulgin experience reports one has to remain understanding that these are personal experiences, some documented better than others. Everyone is different, mind and body. What stands true for one may not be true for all. There is a large resource of information within these reports but it takes a lot of processing and understanding. It gets more difficult when dealing with information that is so dynamic, but the more read and experienced, the more understanding gained. The useful information seems to get more defined. Much of this is also for other resources such as Erowid that are largely based on people’s experiences and information, Yet you don’t need to have a doctorate or degree to have useful information and doesn’t make it any less true. Information comes from experience and we all perceive the world differently. One of the best ways to learn how to research is to read as much as possible of things that one would not usually agree with. Listen and read with and open mind, this way you learn why you disagree with the information and are able to be critical of it more proficiently. Often in this information one find things that they agree with, but in different ways. We all have facts in what we say and write but it’s the open and critical eye and ear that will be able to pick it out as we see useful. If one finds something useful on the ground just wipe off the dirt. One interesting article once posted as a credible and well research resource seems to have tons of flaws and bias. This is what I feel to be a good example of something that “looks smart” and has a lot of information and seems to have a very valid source being a Berkeley university term paper with tons of references at the bottom. It’s called MDMA – The Real Truth ( http://sulcus.berkeley.edu/mcb/165_0...ipts/_463.html ) and seems to be making very valid points. Yet it this more of an un-bias research project? Or an opinion piece? How valid are the facts and references? It starts out claiming to be the real truth about MDMA and then comes to a conclusion convincing that MDMA is harmful and dangerous. It may be easy for some to assume that MDMA has an effect on the pineal gland, is neurotoxic, or other reactions from the wording and the referenced article, but are these facts, speculations, half truths? This is where one needs to start researching and that leads to the references and their credibility. It looks like Ricaurte is referenced twice so one may start thinking how bias this article actually is. Yet that aside maybe the article redeems itself? Maybe it’ll come off not so one sided? Or maybe a letter will be brought up that will help people realize the harmful nature of MDMA. A letter with no source, no doctor toxicology test to show what the person actually died from. A letter that in itself states the person had taken “E” which is often many different things that may or may not include MDMA itself. Personally I find it hard to trust the reputation of an article that tries to play on heartstrings and slip in misinformation while I have a tear in my eye. Personally I’m going to be dubious and go do more research and be weary of posting this article as something credible and factual.
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May 05, 04
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[/quote]they don't always work though, that's the thing.
I have a friend who's been addicted to Paxil for 10 years. When she first got on it, her doctor told her it would help her deal with her depression and sort her head out. Now she can't get off of it cos the withdrawl symptoms are just too intense. Do you call that 'working'? don't get me wrong, I think SSRI's are one useful path to take, but they shouldn't be the only one.[/quote] you get withdrawl from paxil if you try to just stop taking it, but if you slowly ease off of it with lower and lower doses you body no longer feels the dependancy. I take Paxil and my doctor told me that I wouldn't be able to just stop that it would take soem time to ease off and I made the descision to take it knowing that. when I have forgotten to take my meds it makes me feel slightly ill for the next two days, but after that I'm pretty much fine.
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May 05, 04
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hmmm i read somewhere in these posts...jib eats ur soul...
so true.
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May 06, 04
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It doesn't necessarily eat your soul but it does take priority as kind of a center of your balance/universe. It takes alot to not lose your marbles in your head. Though many seem to get the paranoia associated with jib after extensive use, you do tend to be able to kinda grow used to the feeling. Either way its a really gross drug, with very powerful effects both good, and bad. and don't just say its only got bad things, especially if you havn't touched it, cause thats just hypocritical of you. p.s: doing speed/meth in a cap of Ecstacy does not constitute doing actual speed my friend. Doing it in pure crystalline form is alot more potent.
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May 06, 04
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May 07, 04
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i think that it is bad for you, but as long as you have self control you'll be fine. just dont overdue it and know your limits.
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May 07, 04
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i've never done jib myself, but from what i've observed knowing your limits is alot easier said than done.
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May 07, 04
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