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  #76 (permalink)  
Old Feb 16, 07
sup?
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
tiedye is a name known to alltiedye is a name known to alltiedye is a name known to alltiedye is a name known to alltiedye is a name known to alltiedye is a name known to alltiedye is a name known to alltiedye is a name known to alltiedye is a name known to alltiedye is a name known to all
I've heard of the Mind's Eye, but never the Mind's Ass.
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  #77 (permalink)  
Old Feb 16, 07
Straight Outta Mocash
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Gusto is just really niceGusto is just really niceGusto is just really niceGusto is just really niceGusto is just really niceGusto is just really niceGusto is just really nice
maybe one of you should throw her a curb-ball that knocks her right off that pedestool.
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  #78 (permalink)  
Old Feb 16, 07
blau
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
dj_soo is just really nicedj_soo is just really nicedj_soo is just really nicedj_soo is just really nicedj_soo is just really nicedj_soo is just really nice
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avana View Post
well she knows her job, I doubt she is that successful. I am guessing she has herself on some made up pedestool.
i'm surprised she still has a job considering that she tends to get her company sued for breaking the law.
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  #79 (permalink)  
Old Feb 16, 07
Junglist
Guest
 
Battle of the Armchair Politicians
Page 4


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  #80 (permalink)  
Old Feb 16, 07
Avana
Guest
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dj_soo View Post
i'm surprised she still has a job considering that she tends to get her company sued for breaking the law.
Maybe the paid day off she speaks of is the one she is on while on social assistance or EI because she was let go.
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  #81 (permalink)  
Old Feb 16, 07
blau
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
dj_soo is just really nicedj_soo is just really nicedj_soo is just really nicedj_soo is just really nicedj_soo is just really nicedj_soo is just really nice
Quote:
Originally Posted by Junglist View Post
Battle of the Armchair Politicians
Page 4


yea, people should just go back to talking about taking E and how jungle is better than trance
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  #82 (permalink)  
Old Feb 16, 07
black swan
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
prozac is just really niceprozac is just really niceprozac is just really niceprozac is just really niceprozac is just really niceprozac is just really nice
man this thread sucks.
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old Feb 16, 07
I can has photo?
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
thebobman is a jewel in the roughthebobman is a jewel in the roughthebobman is a jewel in the roughthebobman is a jewel in the rough
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiedye View Post
I've heard of the Mind's Eye, but never the Mind's Ass.
That's the mind's third eye.
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  #84 (permalink)  
Old Feb 16, 07
Grapes's Avatar
ceiling cat!
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Grapes is a name known to allGrapes is a name known to allGrapes is a name known to allGrapes is a name known to allGrapes is a name known to allGrapes is a name known to allGrapes is a name known to allGrapes is a name known to allGrapes is a name known to allGrapes is a name known to all
Are you guys saying "pedestool" on purpose?

The best thing about this thread is that gnosis is really insecure about the fact that no-one ever replies to his posts, and now he'll realize that he was better off when that was the case.
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  #85 (permalink)  
Old Feb 17, 07
Don't Believe The Hype
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
diva is a jewel in the roughdiva is a jewel in the roughdiva is a jewel in the rough
Quote:
Originally Posted by rawb View Post
You could visit a nice Persian or East Indian lady to get your eyebrows taken care of too.
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  #86 (permalink)  
Old Feb 17, 07
Island Cookie
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Disco_Whore is a jewel in the roughDisco_Whore is a jewel in the roughDisco_Whore is a jewel in the rough
Well that got derailed pretty quickly.

The only worthwhile contribution I have at the moment is to inform *Sunshyne* to remove her foot from her mouth already.
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  #87 (permalink)  
Old Feb 17, 07
Guineveire's Avatar
iDon'TcHnOtEcHnO!!!111
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Guineveire is a jewel in the roughGuineveire is a jewel in the roughGuineveire is a jewel in the roughGuineveire is a jewel in the rough
or just leave FNK altogether.
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  #88 (permalink)  
Old Feb 17, 07
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
fable is an unknown quantity at this point
Quote:
Originally Posted by *SunShyne* View Post
Canada's government needs to stop giving hand outs to people who haven't shown any comittment to making themselves better people and getting their kids out of whatever hell they're living in.

This includes those who have been on welfare for years now.

I agree with that 3507321C kid.

People are coming in from all over the world and almost in all cases, they are not asking for a hand out, or a hand for that matter. They're stuggling like the rest of families who come here for a better life. They struggle until they achieve happiness, or the closest they can get to it, and not once asking the government for land, for money, for jobs etc.

*Let the "You're an asshole!" "You're ignorant!" "I hate you!" "How would you like it if..." comments begin!*
I dont hate you, nor do I think you are an asshole or a racist, but your comments are in fact of a racist nature and more importantly comments that fail to be put in the context of the combination of the impact of colonialism, ongoing systemic oppression, misinformation, and rampant poverty.

In relation to Immigrant and a perceived notion of immigrant values you are once again not putting things in the context of imperialism, attacks on immigrants, refugess or visible minorities and the economic undertone to all the attacks.

By not connecting these elements, your analysis is very anemic and essentially almost completely false outside of your own narrow perspective and reletive lack of experience.

Take a read of the following, I believe it will be a good start to getting a greater appreciation and understanding of what you were initially discussing.

ez

Resisting Canadian Colonialism: The Indigenous Struggle for Self-Determination

The conventional approach to writing almost anything on the Indigenous question
in America, generally and particularly in Canada is that we are reminded most of
the time how important it is to understand the five hundred years of oppression and
colonialism in this hemisphere. As important as it seems this question is, especially
in Canada, the issue has been looked at like this: let’s talk about it so much that we
forget to address it. The indigenous question or problem if you will, is not just how
deep or severe the oppression is of these proud nation/s, or how their great culture
has been destroyed by white Europeans. More importantly, the question poses itself
politically in how the rights of indigenous people, including and specifically the right
of self-determination, could play in the political struggle of the working class in this
country against Capitalism and Canadian imperialism. What strategy or action
program regarding indigenous people, as a most important ally of the working and
poor people, do we need to develop that could help the process of unity in action not
only against indigenous oppression but against oppression and for the liberation of
all oppressed people: workers, farmers, women, youth, LGBT, people of colour etc.

Canadian leftists and progressive movements have failed decisively in approaching
the indigenous struggle and winning over their trust. The issue has been ignored,
silenced, suppressed for a long, long time, regardless of being talked about and
discussed a lot! The suppression of indigenous people and destruction of their culture
is the basis of racism in Canadian society, which is deep rooted. No wonder nobody
wants to talk about it. Most of the time it seems that it does not even exist! In relation
to Germans who killed millions of innocent Jewish people during WWII era and
the Canadian genocide of native people, we can observe that the Germans guilt is
rooted in the past, but Canadian guilt is rooted in the present, and continues. For us
though, the working class, one thing is important and vital, that without indigenous
participation in the revolutionary movement for fundamental change there will be no
liberation in this land, not for yourself, myself, or anyone.

For Web PDF version click here
For Printable PDF version click here

Sun Peaks Out of Skwelkwek'Welt!

Since 1997, the Sun Peaks ski resort has been expanding into the territory of the
Secwepemec people. The continued struggle of the Secwepemec people to regain
their stolen territory is a fight for self-determination, the basic right of indigenous
people to decide how their land will be used. This fight for self-determination
challenges the very foundations of the colonial Canadian government, and contains
dynamics that give it the potential to ignite widespread mobilization among poor,
working, and oppressed people in Canada against occupation and injustice.

The struggle in Skwelkwek’welt against the continued expansion of Sun Peaks is an
example of the fight for sovereignty that is happening among different indigenous
nations across North America. This fight to defend land and territory must be
supported by indigenous and non-indigenous people to build a movement that can
effectively challenge the continued theft of indigenous land and resources.

For this reason, Fire This Time has supported the Secwepemc people who have
been resisting the continued expansion of Sun Peaks onto their territory, including
participating in several actions against Sun Peaks, as well as running regular stories
and updates in the FTT newspaper to draw the attention of working and oppressed
people in Canada to this struggle and its importance. This booklet is a selection of
articles on the Skwelkwek’welt struggle from past issues of Fire This Time.

For PDF version click here
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  #89 (permalink)  
Old Feb 17, 07
Bringing Sexy Back
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
*SunShyne* is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by diva View Post
You could visit a nice Persian or East Indian lady to get your eyebrows taken care of too.
Dude, what are you serious?? A shot at my eyebrows... Jesus you're reaching...
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  #90 (permalink)  
Old Feb 17, 07
blau
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
dj_soo is just really nicedj_soo is just really nicedj_soo is just really nicedj_soo is just really nicedj_soo is just really nicedj_soo is just really nice
LOOK WHAT YOU DID. YOU GOT FABLE IN HERE NOW.
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  #91 (permalink)  
Old Feb 18, 07
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
fable is an unknown quantity at this point
Quote:
Originally Posted by dj_soo View Post
LOOK WHAT YOU DID. YOU GOT FABLE IN HERE NOW.
Yes, but a more subdued Fable :)
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  #92 (permalink)  
Old Feb 18, 07
Boom. Boom.
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Caps/\L0cK is an unknown quantity at this point
Ok im just going to remind again, because theres to much crap here to read all of it.

But in response to the europeans taking there land crap. I will remind you people.

THAT EVERY KNOWN NATION ON THE PLANET HAS MOST LIKELY AT SOME TIME BEEN INVADED AND OCCUPIED, HAD THEIR LAND REMOVED, AND GIVEN NOTHING BUT DISCRIMINATION.

So stop bitching about how the land is theirs, its irrelevant in the global scope of things. They should be content with what they have been given now. It is more then any othe rconquered people has ever been given.
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  #93 (permalink)  
Old Feb 18, 07
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
gnosis has a spectacular aura aboutgnosis has a spectacular aura about
~slaps Caps/\L0cK upside the temple~

Just for pure ignorance.

Frosty
(thanks to the many voices of reason)
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  #94 (permalink)  
Old Feb 18, 07
Senior's Avatar
fuck yeah
 
Join Date: May 2001
Senior is a jewel in the roughSenior is a jewel in the roughSenior is a jewel in the roughSenior is a jewel in the roughSenior is a jewel in the rough
Quote:
Originally Posted by *SunShyne* View Post
...my teeth are perfectly straight and I'm a 36D.

Just goes to show how much you put into that post now doesn't it?

Also, I have the afternoon off... with pay.
pics or stfu and I don't care about your teeth. on second thought just stfu.
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  #95 (permalink)  
Old Feb 18, 07
Senior's Avatar
fuck yeah
 
Join Date: May 2001
Senior is a jewel in the roughSenior is a jewel in the roughSenior is a jewel in the roughSenior is a jewel in the roughSenior is a jewel in the rough
just to add to what Fable said;

he need for a revisionist destructionist propaganda - a critique of New Zealand Native Timber Milling activism.

Once the communist regimes of Russia and China gained power, they realised to maintain the dictatorship of the proletariat against the reactionary forces of capital, they would have to institute mechanisms for the suppression of dissent and democracy. This involved the brutal and deliberate perversion of justice for the dissenters, and more widespread use of propaganda for the innocent and easily persuaded. Propaganda was not viewed with disdain, but as an effective tool to prevent the masses from straying away from thinking the thoughts that were good for them.

That such an attitude and technique should have been picked up in the native forestry industry in New Zealand is initially surprising and a little bizarre, but closer inspection reveals deep parallels. Both the communist regimes and modern native forestry must hold the fort against substantial majority opinion - in the case of the former, people's love of freedom, in the latter their love of nature especially mountains, rivers, beaches and...forests.

For propaganda to work there must be a central core of ideas and deeply held beliefs called ideology. A successful ideology has a coherent answer for everything, and such tolerates no effective dissent. Any citizen who questions any part of the ideology is automatically an enemy. For leaders like Stalin and Mao Zedong who were what would now be described as control freaks, effective use of propaganda would mean that their ideas were extolled as correct and universal and any heretical opinions must be silenced - by ideological means or otherwise.

Propaganda meant that every application must have it's own tailored vocabulary. For organs like Pravda and People's Daily, key words like 'labour', 'sacrifice', 'heroic' , 'blood' and 'red' had enough emotional resonance to camouflage the more dubious content in the rest of text. Having the drawback of a substantially better educated population with much higher material expectations is both a curse and comfort for those who want to maintain the milling of native timber. If only the extraction of timber could be explained in such as way that no real harm seems to occur, then the public could perhaps be mollified. If the additional hint of a threat to lifestyle could be added, then a credible case for continued logging could be made. A Very Good Word must be found.
ADVERTISEMENT

The first Big Lie that fits the bill was the concept of 'sustainability'. There used to be a much more accurate and descriptive term called 'thinning' but this seems to have vanished like former party comrades in a retouch of a 1930's Politburo photograph, probably because it was too close to the truth. Sustainability sounds like nothing is really happening, that as a tree leaves, another magically takes it place. Also by another piece of magic, pest control is more effective as a result of this logging process, doing a much better job than the government's own conservation department. One wonders how the decent folk from Department of Conservation feel about the comments on their professionalism and results they are getting from native milling academics within their orbit.

This is a very hard sell but is made easier by New Zealander's love of furniture made from timber which is, unfortunately for the local trees, superior to the imported products that grow so fast. Here a threat is used that if we do not use local native hardwoods, then they will have to be imported and someone else's forests will be cut down. This is indeed clever, but probably unintentionally ignores the massive slur that it makes upon the very courageous activists in countries like Indonesia , Malaysia and Brazil trying to halt an unimaginable level of destruction. So the second Big Lie is that stopping the milling of native timber impoverishes NZ by reducing the supply of timber for furniture makers and associated trades. NZ native timber is good for furniture it is true, but once upon a time all houses here were made with native timber and now practically none are. The resourceful NZ timber merchant and craftsperson adjusted to the reduction and will do so for furniture. Native furniture will go the way of the mink coat - nice to have but at too great a cost and a sign of political incorrectness of the highest magnitude, It won't happen overnight but it will happen.

The best way to discredit an enemy is to steal his clothes. The native logging ideologues like to call themselves Conservationists but this is a contradiction within the paradigm of their own ideology. They are better described as Destructionists. Preservation and conservation are almost identical concepts. These terms mean to keep in store for the future. No logger is interested in the ecology of their environment any more than a farmer is interested in a retirement home for his stock.

By definition, a logger must look at a tree in terms of dollars and cents. When a logger talks about sustainability, what they mean is the ability of forests to produce what the industry wants - a steady stream of revenue for as long as possible. Industries seldom think in terms of hundreds of years, especially in New Zealand where the massive level of private and corporate debt means financial planning seldom gets past paying next month's bills. Native trees typically have a life of centuries. Most of the pine investment schemes advertised on television promise a maturity within 1-2 human generations. The creation of wealth from native timber must cause the destruction of many trees. This is not conservation. For destructionists to claim that milling native timber is conservation is like saying Uncle Joe Stalin was a much misunderstood kindly old man.

The death of even one tree is no trivial ecological or social event. A tree is host to millions of organisms of varying size and social complexity; a complete ecosystem all of its own. When a destructionist uses the word sustainability, the image of a massive forest giant falling to the ground killing scores of birds is not one that springs to mind - more like a bunch of careful guys going around picking a few small trees here and there. This is not the reality of commercial forestry and no logging company would last long with this sort of approach to operations. The credibility of the destructionists that the trees are being logged in a 'sustained' manner just isn't there - how can the public believe the opinions of a bunch of guys hired by a what is really a government department that employs companies to lie to the public. The truth is that they don't so here the destructionists must reach for the heavy artillery.

Like a ideology committee deep inside the Kremlin, a classification of enemies of sustainability proceeds apace. Top of the list of traitors are the 'Preservationists', an evil malign presence who have never been out of the Auckland and are dupes of the sinister conspiracy called the Native Forest Action - a shadowy coalition of demented old dears ( obviously senile ) and mad “eco-nuts” who seem to love trees more than people. These are portrayed as the true enemies of conservation and the fact they wander around the forests with no commercial imperative demonstrates a desire to overthrow the natural order whereby New Zealand citizens could extract what they like from the environment. They are trying to take NZ back to the bad old days when their were no humans and birds ruled from the tops of the trees.

So here a word has changed it's meaning. Preservation used to mean that things did not change and were kept for future generations. Destructionist ideology deems preservation to mean a mind state where any desire to set any area aside from human influence or exploitation is indicative of some sort of fallacious thinking, mental inadequacy, dubious hidden political agendas or complete hypocrisy by living the modern lifestyle yet still wanting to preserve native forests. Mindful of the influence that fashion and image have upon 21st century, it is necessary for the destructionist to paint a picture of modern environmentalists as out-of-touch, living in the past, out of tune with the times, ignorant and uneducated - not possessing the truth as held and told by the destructionists. Preservationists are the new Trotsky - enemies of the people and nature and perverters of the doctrines of the wise. The modern propaganda requires that Preservationists must also have have a bad image - "beards and sandals brigade".."haters of the West Coasters" .."latte drinking Aucklanders".."destroyers of local industries"... "fundamentalist' .

Image is important to all forms of propaganda and no more so than in modern NZ political life. That a government department could employ a PR company to

write bogus letters to the newspaper supporting native logging, create bogus pressure groups, engage in all matter of duplicitous and covert operations and not be breaking any law, criminal or commercial is indicative of the influence and power that the destructionists have been able to acquire and entrench.

There is a problem for destructionists with the democratic system. While it is true that the vast majority of New Zealand citizens oppose native timber milling, it was not a problem while the National Party was in power. National represents the the interests of those who gain prosperity from the land and so would permit as much logging of native timber as could be allowed without serious political disruption to the NZ social fabric.

However the election of the Labour/Alliance has meant that the destructionist lobby has had to break out of a tight little circle of PR companies and academia that had the National PM's ear and try to take on the environmental movement, the Labour/Alliance, the media, the lot. Like the early days of the communist party in the USSR and China, the initial attempts at public manipulation are crude and probably ineffectual, but nothing is so dangerous as a wounded vested interest and we can expect the pro-native timber lobby to engage in a furious barrage of propaganda to protect their revenue stream. At the moment,things are relatively quiet but the next stage will be the battle to protect native timber on private and Maori land and one can only wonder what extremes of deception, misinformation and discord that this issue will raise.

Finally, the true test of propaganda is how it presents figures and here is a quote demonstrating the black art in it's magnificence

" The need for a new environmentalism Friday, 14 July 2000, 3:19 pm Press Release: Chris Perley

I heard recently that Timberlands received less than 50 hits (38, I heard 3rd hand) on its website showing their planning documents over the submission process in 1998. The media should reflect on this. Many on this e-mail list have read these plans - either in hard copy or on the web, while the 10 000 odd people who signed Forest & Bird's little postcard "sign-a-submission-against-Evil-Timberlands" can hardly claim to have done so. " This is a classic and takes the biscuit for contempt of the public. Here a public preference of a 10000 to 38 i.e. 263 to one against Destructionism is presented as deception/uninformed opinion on the part of the environmental movement and so automatically invalid.

I welcome any comment on my observations.

Adrian Picot A friend of the New Zealand Native forests..

adrianp@datacom.co.nz 025 749484

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fable View Post
I dont hate you, nor do I think you are an asshole or a racist, but your comments are in fact of a racist nature and more importantly comments that fail to be put in the context of the combination of the impact of colonialism, ongoing systemic oppression, misinformation, and rampant poverty.

In relation to Immigrant and a perceived notion of immigrant values you are once again not putting things in the context of imperialism, attacks on immigrants, refugess or visible minorities and the economic undertone to all the attacks.

By not connecting these elements, your analysis is very anemic and essentially almost completely false outside of your own narrow perspective and reletive lack of experience.

Take a read of the following, I believe it will be a good start to getting a greater appreciation and understanding of what you were initially discussing.

ez

Resisting Canadian Colonialism: The Indigenous Struggle for Self-Determination

The conventional approach to writing almost anything on the Indigenous question
in America, generally and particularly in Canada is that we are reminded most of
the time how important it is to understand the five hundred years of oppression and
colonialism in this hemisphere. As important as it seems this question is, especially
in Canada, the issue has been looked at like this: let’s talk about it so much that we
forget to address it. The indigenous question or problem if you will, is not just how
deep or severe the oppression is of these proud nation/s, or how their great culture
has been destroyed by white Europeans. More importantly, the question poses itself
politically in how the rights of indigenous people, including and specifically the right
of self-determination, could play in the political struggle of the working class in this
country against Capitalism and Canadian imperialism. What strategy or action
program regarding indigenous people, as a most important ally of the working and
poor people, do we need to develop that could help the process of unity in action not
only against indigenous oppression but against oppression and for the liberation of
all oppressed people: workers, farmers, women, youth, LGBT, people of colour etc.

Canadian leftists and progressive movements have failed decisively in approaching
the indigenous struggle and winning over their trust. The issue has been ignored,
silenced, suppressed for a long, long time, regardless of being talked about and
discussed a lot! The suppression of indigenous people and destruction of their culture
is the basis of racism in Canadian society, which is deep rooted. No wonder nobody
wants to talk about it. Most of the time it seems that it does not even exist! In relation
to Germans who killed millions of innocent Jewish people during WWII era and
the Canadian genocide of native people, we can observe that the Germans guilt is
rooted in the past, but Canadian guilt is rooted in the present, and continues. For us
though, the working class, one thing is important and vital, that without indigenous
participation in the revolutionary movement for fundamental change there will be no
liberation in this land, not for yourself, myself, or anyone.

For Web PDF version click here
For Printable PDF version click here

Sun Peaks Out of Skwelkwek'Welt!

Since 1997, the Sun Peaks ski resort has been expanding into the territory of the
Secwepemec people. The continued struggle of the Secwepemec people to regain
their stolen territory is a fight for self-determination, the basic right of indigenous
people to decide how their land will be used. This fight for self-determination
challenges the very foundations of the colonial Canadian government, and contains
dynamics that give it the potential to ignite widespread mobilization among poor,
working, and oppressed people in Canada against occupation and injustice.

The struggle in Skwelkwek’welt against the continued expansion of Sun Peaks is an
example of the fight for sovereignty that is happening among different indigenous
nations across North America. This fight to defend land and territory must be
supported by indigenous and non-indigenous people to build a movement that can
effectively challenge the continued theft of indigenous land and resources.

For this reason, Fire This Time has supported the Secwepemc people who have
been resisting the continued expansion of Sun Peaks onto their territory, including
participating in several actions against Sun Peaks, as well as running regular stories
and updates in the FTT newspaper to draw the attention of working and oppressed
people in Canada to this struggle and its importance. This booklet is a selection of
articles on the Skwelkwek’welt struggle from past issues of Fire This Time.

For PDF version click here
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  #96 (permalink)  
Old Feb 18, 07
Senior's Avatar
fuck yeah
 
Join Date: May 2001
Senior is a jewel in the roughSenior is a jewel in the roughSenior is a jewel in the roughSenior is a jewel in the roughSenior is a jewel in the rough
p.s. Fable you better read that whole post and respond point for point, otherwise I will assume you agree with everything I've ever said. thanks,
Reply With Quote
  #97 (permalink)  
Old Feb 18, 07
Senior's Avatar
fuck yeah
 
Join Date: May 2001
Senior is a jewel in the roughSenior is a jewel in the roughSenior is a jewel in the roughSenior is a jewel in the roughSenior is a jewel in the rough
The point here people is that major offenses have taken place on a sustained basis against the Native people of this province since the first European settlers arrived. It was not until the 1970's/1980's that any effort was made to rectify these actions. So anyone who stands up and acts all surprised that this issue won't just go away is being pretty foolish.

the core of this argument is that settlements were reached over a hundred years ago between the BC government and natives. We never respected those treaties so they are now having to be redrawn. As an example the Burrard Band was given right to most of the land that modern day Kitsilano now sits on. I believe it's the Musqueam band that was given all the land starting from the Second Narrows bridge to Deep Cove. So if people really want to pissed off that we owe such a massive debt to Natives they should be mad at the people who negotiated these treaties not the Natives who were fucked out of their lands.
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  #98 (permalink)  
Old Feb 18, 07
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
-evil-duerr- is a glorious beacon of light-evil-duerr- is a glorious beacon of light-evil-duerr- is a glorious beacon of light-evil-duerr- is a glorious beacon of light-evil-duerr- is a glorious beacon of light-evil-duerr- is a glorious beacon of light-evil-duerr- is a glorious beacon of light
well fucken said, senior.
excellent posts!
props

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senior View Post
if people really want to pissed off that we owe such a massive debt to Natives they should be mad at the people who negotiated these treaties not the Natives who were fucked out of their lands.
quoted for emphasis
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  #99 (permalink)  
Old Feb 18, 07
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Spoon is an unknown quantity at this point
The first Big Lie that fits the bill was the concept of 'sustainability'. There used to be a much more accurate and descriptive term called 'thinning' but this seems to have vanished like former party comrades in a retouch of a 1930's Politburo photograph, probably because it was too close to the truth. Sustainability sounds like nothing is really happening, that as a tree leaves, another magically takes it place. Also by another piece of magic, pest control is more effective as a result of this logging process, doing a much better job than the government's own conservation department. One wonders how the decent folk from Department of Conservation feel about the comments on their professionalism and results they are getting from native milling academics within their orbit.





Weyerhaeuser manages its forests for the sustainable production of wood


and wood products that meet our customers’ needs.We are committed to

independent certification of our forest management and to meeting the
principles and objectives of applicable forest certification systems. The elements of this standard apply to company-owned and managed lands worldwide.
•We harvest at sustainable rates over the long term.
•We encourage the use of non-timber products and services from the forest.
•We reforest promptly after harvesting by planting within the first available planting season, not to exceed twenty-four months, or by planned natural regeneration methods within five years or as provided in an applicable license.
•We employ reliable processes in using forest chemicals to meet our silvicultural and environmental objectives in compliance with applicable laws, best management practices (BMPs), and label directions, and in conformance with applicable certification standards.
•We protect soil stability and ensure long-term soil productivity by using equipment and practices appropriate to the soil, topography and weather to minimize erosion and harmful soil disturbance.
•We use forestry practices and technology to retain organic matter and soil nutrients.
•We maintain healthy forests and minimize losses caused by fire, insects and disease.
•We meet or exceed applicable water quality laws and best management practices to protect water quality,water bodies and riparian areas.
•We protect water quality by practicing sound road construction and maintenance.
•We provide a diversity of habitats for wildlife and contribute to conservation of biological diversity through practices or programs that address habitat diversity and conservation of plants and animals at multiple scales, in accordance with applicable certification programs or other locally accepted standards.
•We protect threatened and endangered species and cooperate with government agencies to determine how our forestlands can contribute to their conservation.
•We consider aesthetic values by identifying sensitive areas and adapting our
practices accordingly and in conformance with applicable certification standards.
•We identify special ecological, geologic, cultural and historical sites and manage them in a manner appropriate for their unique features.

This is a very hard sell but is made easier by New Zealander's love of furniture made from timber which is, unfortunately for the local trees, superior to the imported products that grow so fast. Here a threat is used that if we do not use local native hardwoods, then they will have to be imported and someone else's forests will be cut down. This is indeed clever, but probably unintentionally ignores the massive slur that it makes upon the very courageous activists in countries like Indonesia , Malaysia and Brazil trying to halt an unimaginable level of destruction. So the second Big Lie is that stopping the milling of native timber impoverishes NZ by reducing the supply of timber for furniture makers and associated trades. NZ native timber is good for furniture it is true, but once upon a time all houses here were made with native timber and now practically none are. The resourceful NZ timber merchant and craftsperson adjusted to the reduction and will do so for furniture. Native furniture will go the way of the mink coat - nice to have but at too great a cost and a sign of political incorrectness of the highest magnitude, It won't happen overnight but it will happen.

The best way to discredit an enemy is to steal his clothes. The native logging ideologues like to call themselves Conservationists but this is a contradiction within the paradigm of their own ideology. They are better described as Destructionists. Preservation and conservation are almost identical concepts. These terms mean to keep in store for the future. No logger is interested in the ecology of their environment any more than a farmer is interested in a retirement home for his stock.

By definition, a logger must look at a tree in terms of dollars and cents. When a logger talks about sustainability, what they mean is the ability of forests to produce what the industry wants - a steady stream of revenue for as long as possible. Industries seldom think in terms of hundreds of years, especially in New Zealand where the massive level of private and corporate debt means financial planning seldom gets past paying next month's bills. Native trees typically have a life of centuries. Most of the pine investment schemes advertised on television promise a maturity within 1-2 human generations. The creation of wealth from native timber must cause the destruction of many trees. This is not conservation. For destructionists to claim that milling native timber is conservation is like saying Uncle Joe Stalin was a much misunderstood kindly old man.

The death of even one tree is no trivial ecological or social event. A tree is host to millions of organisms of varying size and social complexity; a complete ecosystem all of its own. When a destructionist uses the word sustainability, the image of a massive forest giant falling to the ground killing scores of birds is not one that springs to mind - more like a bunch of careful guys going around picking a few small trees here and there. This is not the reality of commercial forestry and no logging company would last long with this sort of approach to operations. The credibility of the destructionists that the trees are being logged in a 'sustained' manner just isn't there - how can the public believe the opinions of a bunch of guys hired by a what is really a government department that employs companies to lie to the public. The truth is that they don't so here the destructionists must reach for the heavy artillery.

Many kinds of trees, shrubs, grasses and other plants grow in managed forests. Most of these plants grow and reproduce on their own. Depending on the climate of each region, Weyerhaeuser foresters plant numerous species of trees, including Douglas fir, noble fir, loblolly pine, white spruce, jack pine
and red alder. We consider the landscape, elevation, soil, climate and other variables for each site when deciding which species to plant. Sometimes we plant species such as cottonwoods, Sitka spruce or cedar to accomplish specific goals, including fish habitat improvement. We also take great care to maintain the genetic diversity of our seedlings to ensure hardy, diseaseand pest-resistant trees.
Managed forests include a variety of special habitats such as wetlands,
meadows, caves, rocky slopes or alpine forest. Each type of habitat supports
different animals and plants that benefit from those conditions. Different animals and plants are attracted to a managed forest at various stages in the harvesting and replanting cycle. Over time and across the landscape,
managed forests help maintain biodiversity by supporting hundreds of
different species of plants and animals — particularly those that need forest openings and trees of various ages.


I just copied that from a few notes at work. I work in the forestlands for Weyerhaeuser. What firsthand knowledge or expierance do you have? I agree that there where bad forestry practices in place and i am not defending them, but please don't judge all companies the same. But back to the first post it is private land not Crownland. What is your position if a native band claimed the land your condo was built on? Would you just hand over your keys and walk away?





Last edited by Spoon; Feb 18, 07 at 06:55 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #100 (permalink)  
Old Feb 18, 07
Senior's Avatar
fuck yeah
 
Join Date: May 2001
Senior is a jewel in the roughSenior is a jewel in the roughSenior is a jewel in the roughSenior is a jewel in the roughSenior is a jewel in the rough
Can I get the Cole's Notes version?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoon View Post
The first Big Lie that fits the bill was the concept of 'sustainability'. There used to be a much more accurate and descriptive term called 'thinning' but this seems to have vanished like former party comrades in a retouch of a 1930's Politburo photograph, probably because it was too close to the truth. Sustainability sounds like nothing is really happening, that as a tree leaves, another magically takes it place. Also by another piece of magic, pest control is more effective as a result of this logging process, doing a much better job than the government's own conservation department. One wonders how the decent folk from Department of Conservation feel about the comments on their professionalism and results they are getting from native milling academics within their orbit.





Weyerhaeuser manages its forests for the sustainable production of wood


and wood products that meet our customers’ needs.We are committed to

independent certification of our forest management and to meeting the
principles and objectives of applicable forest certification systems. The elements of this standard apply to company-owned and managed lands worldwide.
•We harvest at sustainable rates over the long term.
•We encourage the use of non-timber products and services from the forest.
•We reforest promptly after harvesting by planting within the first available planting season, not to exceed twenty-four months, or by planned natural regeneration methods within five years or as provided in an applicable license.
•We employ reliable processes in using forest chemicals to meet our silvicultural and environmental objectives in compliance with applicable laws, best management practices (BMPs), and label directions, and in conformance with applicable certification standards.
•We protect soil stability and ensure long-term soil productivity by using equipment and practices appropriate to the soil, topography and weather to minimize erosion and harmful soil disturbance.
•We use forestry practices and technology to retain organic matter and soil nutrients.
•We maintain healthy forests and minimize losses caused by fire, insects and disease.
•We meet or exceed applicable water quality laws and best management practices to protect water quality,water bodies and riparian areas.
•We protect water quality by practicing sound road construction and maintenance.
•We provide a diversity of habitats for wildlife and contribute to conservation of biological diversity through practices or programs that address habitat diversity and conservation of plants and animals at multiple scales, in accordance with applicable certification programs or other locally accepted standards.
•We protect threatened and endangered species and cooperate with government agencies to determine how our forestlands can contribute to their conservation.
•We consider aesthetic values by identifying sensitive areas and adapting our
practices accordingly and in conformance with applicable certification standards.
•We identify special ecological, geologic, cultural and historical sites and manage them in a manner appropriate for their unique features.

This is a very hard sell but is made easier by New Zealander's love of furniture made from timber which is, unfortunately for the local trees, superior to the imported products that grow so fast. Here a threat is used that if we do not use local native hardwoods, then they will have to be imported and someone else's forests will be cut down. This is indeed clever, but probably unintentionally ignores the massive slur that it makes upon the very courageous activists in countries like Indonesia , Malaysia and Brazil trying to halt an unimaginable level of destruction. So the second Big Lie is that stopping the milling of native timber impoverishes NZ by reducing the supply of timber for furniture makers and associated trades. NZ native timber is good for furniture it is true, but once upon a time all houses here were made with native timber and now practically none are. The resourceful NZ timber merchant and craftsperson adjusted to the reduction and will do so for furniture. Native furniture will go the way of the mink coat - nice to have but at too great a cost and a sign of political incorrectness of the highest magnitude, It won't happen overnight but it will happen.

The best way to discredit an enemy is to steal his clothes. The native logging ideologues like to call themselves Conservationists but this is a contradiction within the paradigm of their own ideology. They are better described as Destructionists. Preservation and conservation are almost identical concepts. These terms mean to keep in store for the future. No logger is interested in the ecology of their environment any more than a farmer is interested in a retirement home for his stock.

By definition, a logger must look at a tree in terms of dollars and cents. When a logger talks about sustainability, what they mean is the ability of forests to produce what the industry wants - a steady stream of revenue for as long as possible. Industries seldom think in terms of hundreds of years, especially in New Zealand where the massive level of private and corporate debt means financial planning seldom gets past paying next month's bills. Native trees typically have a life of centuries. Most of the pine investment schemes advertised on television promise a maturity within 1-2 human generations. The creation of wealth from native timber must cause the destruction of many trees. This is not conservation. For destructionists to claim that milling native timber is conservation is like saying Uncle Joe Stalin was a much misunderstood kindly old man.

The death of even one tree is no trivial ecological or social event. A tree is host to millions of organisms of varying size and social complexity; a complete ecosystem all of its own. When a destructionist uses the word sustainability, the image of a massive forest giant falling to the ground killing scores of birds is not one that springs to mind - more like a bunch of careful guys going around picking a few small trees here and there. This is not the reality of commercial forestry and no logging company would last long with this sort of approach to operations. The credibility of the destructionists that the trees are being logged in a 'sustained' manner just isn't there - how can the public believe the opinions of a bunch of guys hired by a what is really a government department that employs companies to lie to the public. The truth is that they don't so here the destructionists must reach for the heavy artillery.

Many kinds of trees, shrubs, grasses and other plants grow in managed forests. Most of these plants grow and reproduce on their own. Depending on the climate of each region, Weyerhaeuser foresters plant numerous species of trees, including Douglas fir, noble fir, loblolly pine, white spruce, jack pine
and red alder. We consider the landscape, elevation, soil, climate and other variables for each site when deciding which species to plant. Sometimes we plant species such as cottonwoods, Sitka spruce or cedar to accomplish specific goals, including fish habitat improvement. We also take great care to maintain the genetic diversity of our seedlings to ensure hardy, diseaseand pest-resistant trees.
Managed forests include a variety of special habitats such as wetlands,
meadows, caves, rocky slopes or alpine forest. Each type of habitat supports
different animals and plants that benefit from those conditions. Different animals and plants are attracted to a managed forest at various stages in the harvesting and replanting cycle. Over time and across the landscape,
managed forests help maintain biodiversity by supporting hundreds of
different species of plants and animals — particularly those that need forest openings and trees of various ages.


I just copied that from a few notes at work. I work in the forestlands for Weyerhaeuser. What firsthand knowledge or expierance do you have? I agree that there where bad forestry practices in place and i am not defending them, but please don't judge all companies the same. But back to the first post it is private land not Crownland. What is your position if a native band claimed the land your condo was built on? Would you just hand over your keys and walk away?




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