Thanks Dubya Now We're Really Fucked (IRAQ)

[Senior]

Anyone recall this? http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...030722-12.html

Dubya ran his mouth like a little school girl claiming that Iraq was an imminent threat and that the best thing to do was to go in there and take over or else we might get nuked. Well now the US, Brits, Spain and a few others are over there and it's not quite working out. The majority of Iraqis are turning on them and the Occupation forces are getting their asses kicked. Now the US and company are basically being forced to find the most dignified way they can to run away, leaving Iraq to it's own devices. Does it sound familiar? They did it in Afghanistan, leading to the Taliban taking control and breeding all those 9/11 terrorists. Now they're going to end up with a similar situation in Iraq. Worse than that they have made the middle east more unstable than ever and greatly increased the threat of hard line Islamic revolutions in the region. Pakistan has a secular military dictatorship that supported the US invasion of Afghanistan despite the fact over 95% of the population didn't support the US. Same goes for turkey and Saudi Arabia... the main difference is that Pakistan has NUKES.

So the latest reason that they invaded Iraq (they keep needing new reasons because they are full of shit) was to install a democracy. The problem with this is that Iraq isn't necessarily suited to a democracy. Initially the Shi'ites were very pleased by the possibility of democracy because with a 60% majority in Iraq they could win a free election, install a fundamentalist regime and throw democracy out the window. Now it's starting to become clear the Americans have no intention of allowing a democracy to form... so the question is what's going to be the new rational? Are they finally going to just admit it that they just want the oil and don't give a fuck about all that other shit?

[MissBehavior]

Any Bush administration is never wrong!!!!!

[/sarcasm]

[-ff-]

VIETNAM! VIETNAM!

(come on now, chant it with me!)

[Goat]

What gets to me is how the Americans have started claiming everything anti-democratic a threat to the nation and people; another excuse to go blow things up.

it's a weird world we live.
thank <insert deity here> for nubile womanfolk.

[Goat]

Originally Posted by Anthony

3) Most of the oil reserves they have over there are on fire and badly damaged. The one's that they can sell... well the cash is going right back into the country.

you are so incredibly naive if you believe this.
unless of course you're referring to the U.S.A. as "the country", and not Iraq.

[Senior]

Originally Posted by Anthony

1) Its NOTHING like the vietnam war. Just STFU and stop right there.
2) The purpose of the war was to install a democracy AND find weapons of mass destruction.
3) Most of the oil reserves they have over there are on fire and badly damaged. The one's that they can sell... well the cash is going right back into the country.
4) Most of IRAQ is not in war turmoil and does have a booming economy... it just happens to be in places the US is not. For instance the city of Basra where Britian is in control of security; there is mostly peace with some peaceful protesting of the US occupation.
5) There will be democratic elections next APRIL bush's re-election depends on it


6) Get your facts right, and reply. peace.

1) Low intensity warefare by guerrillas against a well equipped regular army... Hmm sounds like Vietnam or Iraq to me. Quagmire in the sense that they went over there and are now basically stuck with no dignified way out.

2) The purpose of the war was to line rich weapons manufactures pockets and rape Iraq for it's oil reserves. At least this is what is being accomplished. They haven't found WMD or installed (by the way that's an oxymoron) a democracy yet.

3) American companies got BILLIONS of $$$$$ worth of contracts fixing the oil infrastructure. Iraq has the second largest know oil reserves in the world.

4) Are you trying to say that most of Iraq is not under American occupation and that it's mostly the Brits running things? That where the Brits are running things everything is good and jolly? Have you been reading any independant accounts of what's going on over there? Is the violence going on in the streets of Bhagdad, Nasariya and Falujaa that has taken the lives of over 18 US soldiers and 100 Iraq's a peaceful protest?

5) The Americans can't even stage democratic elections in their own country... do I need to go further?

6) Please enlighten me some facts or perhaps even one. I'm off work now but if you like I can get plenty of sources for you to read that are highly credible.

[mapleleaf4ever]

Originally Posted by Anthony

1) Low intensity warefare by guerrillas against a well equipped regular army... Hmm sounds like Vietnam or Iraq to me. Quagmire in the sense that they went over there and are now basically stuck with no dignified way out.

You can say this about anywar...and how is there not a dignified way out?

Because WW2 was SOOO Low Intensity... Not every war was like that. Low Intensity conflicts are a more modern phenomenon. I'm not even going to touch a political debate here. lol Better safe than sorry. :)

[ebbomega]

Originally Posted by Anthony

1) Its NOTHING like the vietnam war. Just STFU and stop right there.

Oh really?

2) The purpose of the war was to install a democracy AND find weapons of mass destruction.

The purpose of Vietnam was to install a democracy AND find and erradicate The Red Machine (for those who are missing it, this means Russia and/or China. Because apparently all Communists are in league with each other. For a good 40 years of the 20th Century, Russia was considered a Weapon of Mass Destruction (otherwise known as a Communist Nuclear Power)

3) Most of the oil reserves they have over there are on fire and badly damaged. The one's that they can sell... well the cash is going right back into the country.

Care to provide a source that isn't being piped through the US government on that one?

4) Most of IRAQ is not in war turmoil and does have a booming economy... it just happens to be in places the US is not. For instance the city of Basra where Britian is in control of security; there is mostly peace with some peaceful protesting of the US occupation.

The same can be said of Vietnam. Everybody was happy except for the aristocrats unless there were American soldiers in the area.

5) There will be democratic elections next APRIL bush's re-election depends on it

For the record, Bush's re-election doesn't depend on it, rather the promise of it. If Bush gets re-elected, it's not like he can get unelected when the elections don't happen as scheduled. Furthermore, I doubt those elections will in fact be democratic, as the people want someone who will actually stand up to the US, and if you think the US will let that happen then you need to learn a bit more about US foreign policy.

6) Get your facts right, and reply. peace.

Back at ya.

[ebbomega]

Domino Effect is one of those things widely regarded as "Bullshit" in the post-cold-war era. Turns out Russia was just as worried as we were. Only difference was totalitarian governments and a less economically feasible design.

And fuck almighty. You're defending the Vietnam war now? Wow. Just wow.

[ebbomega]

Textbooks as propoganda? No. But I prefer to learn from Primary sources.

I know plenty about The Domino Effect and all the ideas behind Containment and whatever.

Back then, installing an independent democracy and containing the Big Red Machine were one and the same for keeping the Domino effect down, at least in theory.

They wanted a nice, US-friendly, non-communist democracy in there. It's too bad that's not what the people wanted.

In Iraq, they want a nice, US-friendly, non-totalitarian democracy in there. It's too bad that's not what the people want now either.

[ebbomega]

They probably want a democracy, this is true. But they don't want a democracy that is a US Puppet or won't stand up to Americans. That's pretty much why Hussein remained in power for so long.

[Ryan Ross]

Originally Posted by Anthony

They are so backwards over there its hard to understand the fundamentalist iraqees ideals and beliefs of how life should be.

And from there view were so backwards over here and its so hard for them to understand our views on life. Yet you dont see them coming over here to try to implement their ideals.

[mapleleaf4ever]

Originally Posted by Anthony

TRUE! They are a more modern phenomenon... but they did happen in world war two... just not as intense as we have seen in the last 50 years. Remember when war was country Vs. country... ah the good ol days.

Yup... OH U.S.S.R. HOW I KNEW THEE WELL!

[ebbomega]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Would life be better for the Iraqee people if Sadam was still in power? I really can't answer that...

I don't know either, but I do find it annoying that the US took it upon themselves, without international consent, to make that decision for us.

[Veni*C]

^^ i really hope your not for bush.

[Veni*C]

thank god.

just out of curiosity .. what kind of republican ideals do u support?

[decypher]

the US government and there 'think tanks' have been waiting for an excuse like 911 to start forcing their form of democracy on other countries.. gives them more power, and allows them to control smaller countries economically.. Its recorded that the US was planning on doing this even before 911... so whether u believe that the US is trying to 'liberate' the people of other countrys or not, the fact is they are only supporting there interests.. same way they allow there corporations that reside in the US to exploit people in other countries. and where is this all leading? they'll never erradicate such a massive, organized, and spread out movement. Fighting terrorism is their excuse for turning the US into a military state, and revoking the libertys of it's people.. im not anti-american. I just wish more american's realized what their brutal government was doing, or at least gave a flying shit

[Krusha]

politics is just a legal mafia ... the main difference is that the media is on there side , I find it pathetic reading all these half baked arguments over left vs right politics ... everything you guys are saying has been said before , social engineering isn't hard to achieve when one controls the left & right puppets

turn off your TV

and read

[Sir_K]

Originally Posted by Senior

The majority of Iraqis are turning on them and the Occupation forces are getting their asses kicked.

I would hardly call it a majority yet, but it very much certainly has the potential to be. Shi'ites and Sunnis both have armed factions within their communities now, and the moderates and neutrals would rather turn a blind eye to them and silently cheer them on than assist the US occupiers in any way to stop them.

Its amazing what isnt reported in the news. The British Envoy to Iraq left in frustration weeks ago because he felt that Paul Bremner completely ignored him and any recommendations he made or opinions he stated. Real nice for a "closest ally". This was only reported in the news recently, once the western media had to acknowlege that things in Iraq are far more fucked up than the US Army was telling them.

Heres a doozy: A reporter in Iraq stated that the whole US contingent in the CPA is brutally partisan. He said he frequently heard in the halls "We'll really screw the democrats with this" and "Well get the Democrats good". Iraq is a complete disaster. Obviously they have their political allegiances at home, but in a country so fucked up by American intervention you would think that the best way to "fuck the democrats" would be to actually make things work.

On the ground even supporters of the US's intentions to install democracy completely dispise Paul Bremner. Paul Bremner is basically a direct minion of the Republican party, chosen by Karl Rove to keep the oil-tycoons happy for their support in the upcoming election. He has been known to frustrate even the obviously corrupt and widely despised CPA by blocking reforms which are much needed to appease the people in order to keep the CPA from being threatened by extremist forces such as those Sunni and Shi'ite insurgents. These are reforms that the CPA doesnt even really want to pass, but feels are needed to somewhat appease the people to provide some legitimacy to the government where there is basically none.

So what you have on the ground in Iraq suddenly (most of which isnt reported) is news on the ground that Bremner is vetoing resolutions which are demanded by the people. The CPA is frustrated as hell with him, the Brits are frustrated as hell with him, and the Iraqi people now on the ground feel vindicated in their suspicions that the US war was for oil and economic control, rather than weapons of mass destruction, liberty and humanitarian intervention, and basically feel powerless.

It is important to remember that the population of Iraq is almost symmetrically opposite to the population of G7 nations like Canada, the US and Britain. They did not have a baby boom after World War II, so unlike us (in the G7 around 50% of the population turned 50 or older last year) they have an extremely large bubble in the 16-25 age group. Most of these people are frustrated, feel powerless, and are unemployed. These same demographics apply to Palestine, which as all have noticed has no shortage of frustrated young people willing to die to better their people's cause.

Unlike the 50+ age group, when that age group gets frustrated, they dont hunker down in their houses and do their best to get by. They take up arms, they arent afraid to die, and they fight, both out of peer pressure and a need to fit in somewhere, and for a feeling that they are working towards a noble goal other than scrounging for food like a vagrant.

Bremner is a blundering idiot who eroded whatever political capital the Americans ever had. Closing down a newspaper vindicated the Iraqi fears that there has never been any intention of installing democracy and the news was so sweet to Iraqi ears that the news traveled like wildfire. Vetoing CPA initiatives to keep the peace in the name of American interests made it worse. Vowing to have veto power for several years after the handover of power made it even worse.

In the current political climate, ironically, all the Bush Administration really wants to do at this point is set up a functioning democracy and get the hell out before election time - but the staunch self-interest in the name of party supporters dictated by Karl Rove is shooting their own aspirations in the foot. By staunchly trying to retain control over the country and the government and it's people for economic and political interest, they are undermining the very goal that they are trying to achieve for political interest.

The quagmire in Iraq at this point is almost unstoppable. In order to quell the uprising and keep it from becoming a popular uprising or civil war, the Americans have no choice but to use brutal and overwhelming force.

Sadr and his supporters understand this, and are fighting from Mosques in the name of Allah. Therefore the Americans have to drop laser guided bombs and fire rockets on Mosques in order to give an overwhelming show of force.

These images that are being shown on Al-Jazeera of Mosques with bombs dropped on them riddled with bullet holes is the very thing that will make the blood of any Muslim Iraqi boil with anger, even if they beleive Sadr should stand down. And this will do nothing but fuel insurgents from both the Sunni and the Shi'ite factions to arm and join the jihad.

Not surprisingly, the Kurds in the north are the only US experiment in Iraq that worked. These people are happy with the US, because they have been funded and trained by US special forces and the pentagon ever since 1990. Even though that experiment worked, the lack of Iraqi military and police and the creation and enforcement of the no-fly zones allowed the only Al-Queda training camp in Iraq to be created - in the no-fly Kurdish zone of Iraq. But hey, this could have been an old black ops training camp for the Kurds prior to the 91 Gulf War, and Al-Queda just picked up some abandoned real estate. Wouldnt be the first time the US helped Al Queda.

The United States refuses to pull out and allow Iraq to become a failed state that becomes a haven for terrorists. The United States is the failed state. They created and propped Mushareef, Saddam, The Saudis, The Kurds, allowed the Taliban to take over Afghanistan, tried to overthrow the government in Venezuela, succeeded in Equador, and allowed war criminals wanted by the UN to take over Haiti. The US has the worst record in the world for directly or indirectly creating terrorist havens, and to make matters worse the CIA even perfected the terrorist training program during the cold war and trained and funded and armed hundreds of people, if not thousands, in subersive tactics. Now the blowback has reached extreme levels as you have previously CIA funded, trained, and armed extremist militants who have been cut off, abandoned, and they are major pissed.

Its really too bad for the American people. I do not feel angry with them, but rather feel sorry for them. I beleive that simmilar to what happened in Spain, there will be a magnificent terrorist attack prior to the election, thousands will die unneccesarily and innocently.

Hopefully this will actually wake up the average American to stop their patriotic flag waving for a year or two and to take a serious, critical review of their governments foreign policy activities, the actions of their various intelligence agencies like the CIA and NSA, and take a brutal look at both parties and their political system as a whole.

The American society has failed, and unfortunately Canada is headed in the same direction. When business interests and the wealth of 3% of the population can basically force the government to ignore the people that it represents, and both major candidates and their respective parties have obvious conflicts of interest which make them unfit to lead the people, and voter participation and buy-in of the democratic society is at an all time low because people dont beleive they can affect change, the political system as a whole is headed for disaster.

Some interesting information sources and things to look up:

CCTV-International / Media from the other side of the political spectrum
http://www.cctv-9.com/new/ViewingLoc.../cctv9-300.asx

Tale of the Tape: Kerry Versus Rove
http://www.washingtondispatch.com/article_8677.shtml

Let's Make Enemies: Bremer's Tricks That Allow the US to Hold on to Power
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0402-01.htm

Republican Priorities on War & Peace
http://www.issues2000.org/Celeb/Repu...ar_+_Peace.htm

[Goat]

^no shit

[SEAN!]

vietnam was far from low intensity....over 50,000 american troops died in that war and three million vietnamese...my mom was telling me how every day on the news they would list the name of causilties for the day and ever day they had atleast 20 names...iraq is no where as bad.


but still you gotta admit the situation is fucked, it is similar to iraq in the fact that the theory behind invading was wrong and corrupt. as well as the fact that the american people/government went into a war with people who have a culture and values which they have absolutely no clue about.

[miss.myra]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Why are you so anti-american? Topple the big red machine because they are all connected to each other? More like prevent a domino effect for the rest of south-east asia. As for bush's re-election many things depend on him getting back into office, a stable Iraq being one of them. Try again.

How can you use a term like 'domino effect' in one breath and then in the next try to say this is not like Vietnam?

[SEAN!]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Why are you so anti-american? Topple the big red machine because they are all connected to each other? More like prevent a domino effect for the rest of south-east asia. As for bush's re-election many things depend on him getting back into office, a stable Iraq being one of them. Try again.

haha the domino affect didnt take into consideration fundamental social cultural political and economic differences between the vietnamese and the rest of south asia, that is why that theory was flawed...just like the theory that the iraqis would love coalition forces once they invade their country and install democracy.

the failure to understand the way people percieve your intentions and their reaction to american actions is a key reason why america constantly gets involved in hopeless wars like these ones...they should just fuck off ina foreign policy sense

[Sir_K]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Really good post. What your saying is The United States takes sides with whoever seems to fit their interests at the time like Ruwanda, Somolia...

Actually, that's not at all what I am saying, but close.

Iraq is just a textbook case study of our democratic system gone wrong. While it may be the US, most of the G7 faces the same problem in the future if change is not affected. Unfrotunately for the average American citizen, the shit is hitting the fan in a big way, and they're on the wrong side of the fan.

Due to the US's economic power, the US is the democracy in the modern world which has advanced its course the most quickly.

In the United States, the division between the rich and poor has been steadily widening ever since the Reagan Administration. Clinton's administration didnt really reverse the change either, so this isnt a Republican problem only.

When you get a high density of wealth in the hands of a small group with their own interests, and very low wealth density in the hands of the majority of the electorate, you get a system that does not work. President Eisenhower warned long ago that extremely large and powerful businesses and corporations could destroy democracy, and what we are seeing with Iraq, Afghanistan, and basically the entire terrorist problem is the surfacing of exactly that.

The American policial system is dominated by one thing. Money. Constantly in the news about the US election (and to a lesser extend, Canadian politics as well) is the amount of money that has been amassed by the participating political parties. This money is used for advertising, influence peddling by donors, and doesnt even come close to the amount of soft money and influence being peddled by strong supporters (who support political ideologies because they will profit from them). A perfect example of soft money and influence is the American media - they profit bigtime from war. Advertising revenues go sky high because Americans are sitting down every night watching the news in fear of having a friend or relative being killed in the conflict. Viewership of television was at an all-time record high on September 11. And viewership translates into dollars for that industry.

If you take that to the Iraq conflict now, Halliburton, ExxonMobil, AT&T, all these major US players pay big taxes and make huge political contributions, and Iraq is a great opportunity for them to dominate a market with little competition for decades to come by being installed as the incumbents.

Bremner was basically appointed by Karl Rove to keep these special interests happy.

Whats going on in Iraq is basically the same thing going on in the US although less "politically correct". Huge business interests dominating the government, not giving a shit what the people think, and with an opportunity to write the constitution, you're getting one hell of a glimpse of where the US and G7 political systems are really heading.

Corporate government creates terrorism and fuels the anger created by injustice and a government that does not serve the people. It does serve business special interests very well, however.

Take a look at the US record alone. This doesnt even include other G7 nations own involvement in geopolitik meddling:

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Haiti is a haven for large shipping companies and provides cheap labour. The US allowed UN war criminals to take over and oust a democratically elected government there. Expect some pissed off Haitians to start hitting the US now, since the minimum wage raise was repealed and they're basically back to square zero as a people.

Equador has significant oil reserves. The populous in Equador is already making geurilla style strikes on US oil company interests because they feel screwed by the current government - the US assisted the same guerillas who recently took over Haiti in the overthrowing of the Equadorian government.

Pakistan is full of Islamic extremists who hate America. Preseident Musharref was supported by the US even though the people hate him because he overthrew an elected governmnet in a military coup.

Afghanistan was full of extremists who were trained by CIA operatives in subversive tactics to fight against the Soviets during the Afghanistan war. The US pulled the plug and abandoned the country, realizing that since the Soviets pulled back and protected Turkestan's oil reserves the Afghani insurgents and black-ops operatives would not be able to encroach on the USSR border and build a pipeline from lower Turkestan through Afghanistan and Pakistan so oil could be shipped.

Saudi Arabia, lest we forget, is basically all of the 9/11 hijackers nationality. The brutal Saudi royal family has been profiting heavily from the sale of oil and their relationship with the US, but has neglected to spend much of the proceeds on their own people. While the division between rich and poor in that country grew, and the people were held in check from overthrowing the royal family because of US protection, hatred for America raged in the hearts and minds of most.

In Iran, the US backed the Shah dictatorship's rise to power in order to gain access to oil reserves and for cold war reasons. The dictatorship was brutal. There was a popular uprising which led to the current Islamic regime, which is better than the previous for the average person. Iran is now on the Axis of Evil, and has been accused of supporting terroism. More likely, the average Iranian just hates America because of what the Shah did with US dollars.

Iraq has two stories. First the US backed Saddam Hussein becuse of their failed experiment in Iran, and funded the Iran-Iraq war for cold war concerns. Saddam overthew an elected government in Iraq much the same way as the US backed Shah in Iran. The brutal regime prevailed, with a dismal record of human rights. Then during the Gulf 1991 war, the US encouraged the Shi'ites to uprise against Saddam promising to take Saddam out, then when Kuwait was liberated and protected (they have a TON of oil), they changed their mind and backed out. Thousands of Iraqi Shi'ites were killed by Saddam. Ironically, Sadr's father that the US are tearing down pictures of, was the guy who answered the US call to uprise against Saddam, and was killed. Now, more of the same. The US backed CPA has little concern for the average people, and disparity fo wealth has grown to extremes. The enviroment on the ground in Iraq is a perfect breeding ground for terrorists - a little educated, impoverished, majority of young people who feel they have no control over the political process. And the US is once again the backer.

Even new balkan states of the old USSR the US created as somewhat of a terrorist breeding ground. After the US finally won the cold war using the CIA, you had huge amount of anti-governmnet insurgents trained and funded by the CIA, now cut off and with the USSR busted up, looking for something to do else be labelled as "no longer required". Many of them were Islamic radicals found through the Afghanistan war. The US-brokered "democratization" of Russia left about 90% of Russia's wealth and natural resources in the hands of 8 oligarchs (most of them previously KGB double-agents or CIA operatives), who are all now multi-billionaires. Vladmir Putin's current mission is to clean it up and redistribute the wealth in a more fair way. These people are still fighting against Russia, even though the policial system has changed.

Israel is a somewhat different beast. There are a lot of very rich Jews in the United States, and they form a very powerful lobby group. The Jewish are very organized and very well educated, and very well funded. For a politician to turn their back on this special interest group is suicide, so staunch support for Israel is the order of the day. Israel is very agressively against the Palestinian cause, and fought a war with Egypt over it. This shit is in the news every day, with the security fence and west Jerusalem being the most recent. But this push against the Palistinians has been going on every day for the past two decades, which creates another breeding ground for terrorists.

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The special interests deeply rooted in the US government have influenced all of these actions, little by little over time, for self interest. Whether these are the oil companies, the military contractors. US foreign policy since the Reagan Administration has been somewhat of a corporate free for all on nations which have not already been saturated with US products.

For countries to survive under our current economic system, the GDP has to grow. For GDP to grow, more stuff has to be sold. American citizens already have their cellphones, microwaves, cars, computers, VCRs, DVDs, and dont need any more of them. For more stuff to be sold, more markets need to be opened up. Rising oil prices have a negative impact on GDP (gross domestic product, which is a calculation of the value of all business transactions by a country's businesses).

It's not the politicians themselves, it's the political reality of the world in which they operate. It's not the US Democrats or the US Republicans; it's the whole US system of government.

Corporate government is basically profit at the expense of the people. The corporate interests have gotten away with their strategies for quite some time because they have largely done things through subversive methods out of the US public's eye in far away backwards countries that US citizens couldnt really give a shit about.

What you have now is blowback to the extreme; these two decades of US Foreign policy directed by corporate and powerful special interest groups has created such a large number of people who feel so injusticed by the US for varying reasons that they feel the need to lash out.

And what is the most sad is that most Americans not only dont even know where their tax dollars have been going for the last 20 years, but they dont even really care. The Americans as a people had better wake up and take a hard critical look at their place in the world, or the radicals will no longer be considered radical, because there will be so many people who hate the Americans that terrorism will be unstoppable until the US, or the world, is destroyed.

[Veni*C]

Originally Posted by ~Veni_C~

thank god.

just out of curiosity .. what kind of republican ideals do u support?

OK.. someone just gave me bad karma for saying this???

i said THANK GOD .. cause he is NOT in support of bush you stupid nob!!!

learn how to read who ever gave me that bad karma!

PS. next time u give bad karma.. have the balls to sign your name and write an actual reason why u gave it to the person instead of
" i cant belive you fucking just posted that" <---