brave new world and other futuristic type books

[sidekick]

i'm reading brave new world right now (aldous huxley) and it got me thinking about humanities future.

i don't think these books got it quite right. i suppose at the time in which they were written those futures were possible. huxley's idea of the assembly line ford type human production and orwell's idea of the fascist totalitarian oppressive government. but i don't think those apply anymore really.

in most of the books i have read that try to say something about our future, they give our government all the power. it's usually some sort of oppressive regime in which the citizens are completely passive and controlled by an all-reaching all-seeing government body.

i think, if anything, our government is coming to have less and less power over us. people nowadays would never allow an orwell like government situation to happen. If we're even struggling with stem cell research right now, i don't see how huxley's human production line could really be feasible in anywhere but the truly distant future.

i think a book written about the future now, would have to give the corporations all the power. government would be the complete pawn of giant companies that controlled everything from what we bought, to what we learned in school to what we did with our free time. i mean, it already seems like that's what is happening right now. the government is seemingly losing it's control over something it has created (in the corporation). this is an idea that was brought up in that movie 'the corporation' as well.

so yeah, i guess at the time huxley and orwell were on the money, but those futures don't really scare me right now because i don't believe them to be possible. what scares me is my new vision of a corporate future.

any thoughts?

[decypher]

National ID cards, chips in your passport, Information act 2 revisions - it all sounds very Orwellian to me.

edit: i believe futuristic books would have to have Governments where there is no divisions between business, state and religion.

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by decypher

National ID cards, chips in your passport, Information act 2 revisions - it all sounds very Orwellian to me.

yeah, i'll give you that one. i agree that the government does do orwellian type things once in awhile. but i really really can't see it getting as far as total control orwell-style; at least in western society. there would be huge revolts against that kind of thing and i just don't think governments have enough power to do all that anymore.

if we are going to be controlled orwell-style by something, it's going to be corporations and not our government.

edit: i agree with what you said in your edit. but i think that it would be the corporations controlling and pupetting the government and NOT the government taking control of companies and turning them into propaganda machines.

[soma]

it's all about the soma

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by soma

it's all about the soma

i think media is our modern soma. especially television.

[decypher]

Well with the amount of money that these big corporations control, and how they cross borders, they definately already control alot of the inner workings of governments.

As well as the revolting thing, i believe the youth is so entrenched in commercialism that it would be nearly impossible to have that snowballing of popular revolt without some sort of long time oppression. All the entertainment just give the youth even more reason not to give a fuck. This "orwellian" tactics are more hidden now behind many agendas, no one even knows about it really.

[sidekick]

also:

it's funny how all those books really scared people about conformity, and how control comes through conformity. but individuality seems to have become the new conformity. everyone goes out and becomes a consumer of some sorts trying to make themselves different from everyone else, and it doing so everyone becomes conformists anyway. it's all this big cycle. someone does something to rebel against 'the system' and then it catches on and everyone starts doing it and it becomes conformist again.

so if we're going to be oppressed in our future, it's going to come through individuality and not conformity, i think.

[esoter1c]

As Above, So Below.

Thesis VS. Anti-Thesis=Synthesis.

Bsically your mind is not controlled by you.

You are controlled by your mind.

Jiminy Cricket=Insanity ie:Your "Conscience".

We need to be controlled whether you agree or not, humans are fuckin stupid.

Don't think that there's anything "NEW" about the "NWO", there isn't.

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by 3507321C

We need to be controlled whether you agree or not, humans are fuckin stupid.

it's just humans controlling other humans; according to your logic, if all humans are fucking stupid, shouldn't that be just as stupid?

come back to me with that statement when there are higher beings controlling us, then it'll make sense.

[wum]

Originally Posted by 3507321C

As Above, So Below.

Thesis VS. Anti-Thesis=Synthesis.

Bsically your mind is not controlled by you.

You are controlled by your mind.

Jiminy Cricket=Insanity ie:Your "Conscience".

We need to be controlled whether you agree or not, humans are fuckin stupid.

Don't think that there's anything "NEW" about the "NWO", there isn't.

in fucking English for fucks sake

[wum]

Very simply put, Democracy is a false god, and it only lasts until the people figure out that they can vote for a share of other people's wealth. That my friends is called Socialism, which is the central plank to INTERNATIONAL COMMUNISM.

This is more than just wealth redistribution. This is the gov't holding you by your balls, and like a pathetic starving dog, you're grateful for whatever table scraps you get. The goal is financial, physical, and ultimately spiritual control.

Everyone do themselves a favor and read some books on Communism and tell me you don't see parrallells in todays society.

[esoter1c]

Originally Posted by Sidekick

it's just humans controlling other humans; according to your logic, if all humans are fucking stupid, shouldn't that be just as stupid?

come back to me with that statement when there are higher beings controlling us, then it'll make sense.

Well Sidekick im not going to go deep but yes those who rule us are in contact with Adepts not aliens but those who have attained higher spiritual positions.

AS FOR YOU WUM I GIVE UP !

[manousos]

Originally Posted by Sidekick

i'm reading brave new world right now (aldous huxley) and it got me thinking about humanities future.

i don't think these books got it quite right. i suppose at the time in which they were written those futures were possible. huxley's idea of the assembly line ford type human production and orwell's idea of the fascist totalitarian oppressive government. but i don't think those apply anymore really.
....
...
..
any thoughts?

Keep in mind that....
Animal Farm and 1984 were written as open letters criticzing any totalitarian regime, primarily the Soviet Union under Stalin's (treacherous) regime. Orwell was a orignally communist but hated what communism was becoming and how its principles were being abused by single men in power in countries like Spain and the USSR. While the story in 1984 takes place 36 years after it was written, Orwell was trying to demonstrate two things:
- that many of the totalitarian ideals found in that book were already being strickly imposed (under the penalty of execution) in Stalin's USSR.
- and people should be carefull of what kind of society they should strive for (ie careful what you wish for)

Brave New World was written as a response to Orwell's vision of the future as seen in 1984. You should also check out Brave New World Revisited, which is Huxley just revisiting his ideas and re-assessing his expectations according to how the times had (politically) progressed.

[wum]

Originally Posted by 3507321C

Well Sidekick im not going to go deep but yes those who rule us are in contact with Adepts not aliens but those who have attained higher spiritual positions.

AS FOR YOU WUM I GIVE UP !

[Grapes]

The crux of Orwell's 1984 wasn't in whether he nailed specific details about technological advances.. it was how he documented the nature of totalitarian control and submission of the general public, COMBINED with some guesses (fairly accurate ones!) about how those natural human tendencies (thirst for absolute power, absolute power corrupting absolutely, perpetual war leading to a perpetural administration) would look translated through advanced technology.

Brilliant book.. I feel like reading it again actually.

[automatic]

Originally Posted by Sidekick

i'm reading brave new world right now (aldous huxley) and it got me thinking about humanities future.

in most of the books i have read that try to say something about our future, they give our government all the power. it's usually some sort of oppressive regime in which the citizens are completely passive and controlled by an all-reaching all-seeing government body.

go read bruce sterling's "schismatrix" if you want a vision of a fractured human future with no central control.....possibly my favourite hard sci-fi futurist work....

[esoter1c]

Bruce Sterling himself has called his Shaper/Mechanist novel Schismatrix "my favorite among my books." It is a detailed history of a spacefaring humanity divided into two camps: The Shapers, who prefer genetic enhancements, and the Mechanists, who rely on prosthetics. Sterling also published five Shaper/Mechanist stories between 1982-84, which have been collected with the novel in this compendium volume. This book represents the definitive collection of what is arguably Sterling's most intense work, offering a hard, gritty look at humanity as it pushes and claws its way to the stars.

Sick !

Def need a Movie based on the book.

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by manousos

Keep in mind that....
Animal Farm and 1984 were written as open letters criticzing any totalitarian regime, primarily the Soviet Union under Stalin's (treacherous) regime. Orwell was a orignally communist but hated what communism was becoming and how its principles were being abused by single men in power in countries like Spain and the USSR. While the story in 1984 takes place 36 years after it was written, Orwell was trying to demonstrate two things:
- that many of the totalitarian ideals found in that book were already being strickly imposed (under the penalty of execution) in Stalin's USSR.
- and people should be carefull of what kind of society they should strive for (ie careful what you wish for)

Brave New World was written as a response to Orwell's vision of the future as seen in 1984. You should also check out Brave New World Revisited, which is Huxley just revisiting his ideas and re-assessing his expectations according to how the times had (politically) progressed.

first: "Brave New World" was NOT written as a response to Orwell's vision of the future, since it was written in 1936 and Orwell's "1984" was written in 1948 (he got the title by simply reversing the last two numbers of the year he wrote it in)

second: yeah, if you read my first post i said in there that they are products of their time. i understand exactly what Orwell and Huxley were talking about in their books. i was just saying how RIGHT NOW i don't think these books apply to our situation as much anymore. at the time they were written they were completely plausible futures; i was asking people if they still thought they were plausible futures with all the changes that have happened since they were written.

[ebbomega]

#1: Esoteric, as much as I love Shambles please change your fucking sig so it doesn't always screw with the margins like that.

#2: If you want a book that's about as prophetic of the future as it gets, check out Neal Stephenson's 1992 post-cyberpunk novel Snow Crash. Compare:
CIC Database vs. Google.com
Metaverse vs. Internet
L. Bob Rife vs. Dubya
US Government vs. any assembly-line thinker job (like, say, call centre tech support)
and so forth. Almost scary how dead-on it was. And a fucking awesome novel.

[ebbomega]

Originally Posted by manousos

Brave New World was written as a response to Orwell's vision of the future as seen in 1984. You should also check out Brave New World Revisited, which is Huxley just revisiting his ideas and re-assessing his expectations according to how the times had (politically) progressed.

An interesting argument considering BNW was written before 1984.

But thanks for coming out!

edit: Fuck. Beat me to it.

[ebbomega]

Originally Posted by Sidekick

i think media is our modern soma. especially television.

"Media doesn't exist to help eliminate the bad things in our world, but rather make us accept them."
(not verbatim)
- Self-destruction dude in Waking Life.

[sidekick]

^sweet. i'll definitly have to pick that one up.

and yeah, i agree with ebbo. esoteric, or excuse me, 3507321C, you gotta make you signature smaller.

[wum]

Originally Posted by Sidekick

yeah, i'll give you that one. i agree that the government does do orwellian type things once in awhile. but i really really can't see it getting as far as total control orwell-style; at least in western society. there would be huge revolts against that kind of thing and i just don't think governments have enough power to do all that anymore.

if we are going to be controlled orwell-style by something, it's going to be corporations and not our government.

edit: i agree with what you said in your edit. but i think that it would be the corporations controlling and pupetting the government and NOT the government taking control of companies and turning them into propaganda machines.

what makes you think they won't go all the way?

what we have today is essentially neo-mercantalism. The pharmaceutical lobby is the most powerful in the US and flexes the FDA as a way to curb competition from non-patented drugs.

the same people who are major stock holders in these companies are also people sitting on the board of education, pushing for things like the "Freedom Initiative" which is forced psychological testing.

Just look at how how teachers are trained to "diagnose" kids with ADD so they can be subsequently put on a cocktail of drugs

Tyranny pervades every part of our lives, and the people running it are obsessed with control. During Mao's era they confiscated cooking implements and made it illegal to prepare your own food.

Now the monopolization of food has become more sophisticaed where the courts keep ruling in favor of Monsanto and their terminator crops.

wake the fuck up man.

the nature of people who seek power is to always want more.

[Grapes]

^ That was your best post on FnK so far. It was legible, it was insightful, it wasn't littered with implausibilities... well done.

[wum]

Originally Posted by Grapes

^ That was your best post on FnK so far. It was legible, it was insightful, it wasn't littered with implausibilities... well done.

you mean really OMG huzzah Im gonna shed a tear thank you Grapes