globalization

[SEAN!]

Originally Posted by wum

the best way to address this problem is to start from the beginning. Were these people always poor and desperate? No. What changed?

yeha they were...we all were in the same state 250 years ago. the industrial revolution improved the lot of the western world. itll come to the rest of the world and globalization will be the driving force

[Splinter]

Originally Posted by SEAN!

unlikely, you dont run out of oil like turning a light switch on/off...prices will go up it will become unaaffordable and then we'll move on to soemthign else.

Such as?

There is nothing to replace oil at this point.

[Moon]

Originally Posted by Sidekick

i don't really see that happening all too easily if things continue as they are going now. sure they get wages from the corporations, but it's still not enough for a lot of them to live on, plus they have to usually work long hours in unsafe conditions and at very young ages.

i think if they're going to become self-dependent and learn to manage their own economy they're going to need the corporations to either pay them fair wages or they're going to need to use their workforce to mine, farm, and produce their own goods to trade to other countries at a fair price.

keep in mind a fair price for minimum wage in a 3rd world country does not equate to the minimum wage here in canada due to the huge difference in the cost of living expenses. but this is a complex problem and i hate this topic to death. lol. but japan for example wouldnt be where it is today without the transnational corporations. they democratisized the country and full out adapted to the capitalist economic model. and just flourished. we gotta be aware alot of these 3rd world countries today have been opressed by authoritarian regimes for decades. that shit hasn't worked and will never work. communist and socialist regimes may be a great idea n all, but the inevitability of an authoritarian government developing is pretty much set. pretty much goes with south korea as well. south korea was dealing with the jap occupation for over 30 years.... after ww2 the north took on the soviet model and the south took on the capitalist us model. look how all that turned out.

i'd much rather have economic freedom rather than political freedom and economic oppression. guys like lenin predicted that imperialism was the last phase of capitalism... but i hope that capitalism through transnational corps unites the world together universally. the us may wanna call the shots in the end who knows. but it's gonna go down to who has the most money.... and countries like china and india are on the rise.

go capitalism! fuck communism

[mapleleaf4ever]

Originally Posted by SEAN!

unlikely, you dont run out of oil like turning a light switch on/off...prices will go up it will become unaaffordable and then we'll move on to soemthign else.

Like the Souls of the unpure and the Bodies of all that resist the Rule of the Powers that be. lol Soylent Green anyone?

[wum]

Originally Posted by SEAN!

yeha they were...we all were in the same state 250 years ago. the industrial revolution improved the lot of the western world. itll come to the rest of the world and globalization will be the driving force

Materially poor compared with today's standards, but were they starving to death or living in slums?

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by Splinter

Such as?

There is nothing to replace oil at this point.

let me remind you that 20 years ago there were no computers, a hundred years ago there were no cars, etc... the human race evolves pretty quickly and our technology is evolving faster and faster as we go on. just look at how far we have technology-wise in the past 20 years! just because there are no answers at this point, doesn't mean that there won't be in the future.

as sean said, you don't just run out of oil one day. prices will go up, it will become extremely expensive and governments and corporations are going to have to adapt and evolve if they're going to stay alive. and if there's anything we can learn from the past it's that corporations want to stay alive...they'll do anything they can to solve problems that threaten the demise of their companies.

technology might not hold all the answers, but i believe we will find some answers to this problem in the future.

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by k-pryde

but i hope that capitalism through transnational corps unites the world together universally.

ugh. i can't believe you just said that. globalization has the potential to unite the world, but transnational corporations definitly do not. they have the potential to take advantage of the poor parts of the world and provide products for the richer, but that's about it i would say.

yeah, i understand that the living costs in developing countries is different, that is why i said FAIR and not EQUAL wages. but as it goes, most of the time they still don't get paid enough money to live a good life and support their families. would it really be THAT hard for companies like Nike and Gap and Kathy Lee to pay them an extra dollar an hour or give them more than 8 cents per shoe/shirt they make? i'm sure they can afford that and it would really boost those people's standard of living.

transnational corporations could work well, too i think. but just not the way they are working right now. it's too easy for them to take advantage of weak governments and desperate people. they're built to make money and produce goods and they'll do this finding the cheapest way possible to make the largest quantity of goods at a sufficient quality level. that is why i think that transnational corporations are NOT built to unite the world, but are built to make the rich countries richer and the poor countries poorer (with the illusion that they're helping them).

once the people in those developing countries reach a certain economic level, they're going to want more from their employer. they're going to want better working conditions and perhaps higher wages, etc... the power of these huge corporations is that they can just threaten to leave and go to another country where the people are just as desperate.

ps. i'm not a communist, just someone that wants to see capitalism work for everyone.

[SEAN!]

Originally Posted by wum

Materially poor compared with today's standards, but were they starving to death or living in slums?

yes they were, its called the malthusian trap in economics. you should try to find and read douglas c north & robert paul thomas' 'The rise of the western world: a new economic history.'

[SEAN!]

Originally Posted by Sidekick

once the people in those developing countries reach a certain economic level, they're going to want more from their employer. they're going to want better working conditions and perhaps higher wages, etc... the power of these huge corporations is that they can just threaten to leave and go to another country where the people are just as desperate.

this is a legitimate concern but when we look at what has actually happened in developing countries such as S korea, taiwan, china, vietnam, bangladesh, and the new members of the EU large scale capital shifts from rich too higher wage poor countries has not occured. companies who focus entirely on wage cost may move elsewhere but thats good for the recipient companies but typically before that happens other higher wage secondary and tertiary industries develop and replace em, which is dope because these industries tend to pay more and pollute less.

this is what has historically happened and what currently continues to happen, taiwan and south korea have wage rates that are like 70-80% of the prevailing wages in north america and south korea has extremely militant unions which makes the CAW look like fuckin pussies but multinationals havent left them and their dominant position has largely been reduced by the creation of local multinationals like hyundia, samsung, lg, acer etc


if anyone should be worried it should be the rich world, cuz countries like brazil, china, india and russia will stomp us in about 30-40 years

[stephen_c]

Originally Posted by SEAN!

this is a legitimate concern but when we look at what has actually happened in developing countries such as S korea, taiwan, china, vietnam, bangladesh, and the new members of the EU ...

south korea and taiwan are definately not developing countries.

Originally Posted by SEAN!

if anyone should be worried it should be the rich world, cuz countries like brazil, china, india and russia will stomp us in about 30-40 years

in the case of china,
make that 10 years.
they are hard working, intelligent
and highly driven by money.

we in canada need not worry.
our economy is largely resource based.
as long as we continue to oppress the natives for their land and resources,
we'll be sound as a pound.