:keeping Canada safe? Policy of oppression?

[fable]

1)

Security Certificates are documents issued under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act (the “IRPA”) that enable the deportation of permanent residents, refugees, and temporary visitors from Canada without substantive judicial review. Security Certificates initiate a judicial process bereft of the procedural safeguards that justify the exercise of judicial and executive authority in a democratic state, including the right to disclosure of the case, the right to confront and cross-examine one’s accusers, the right to a public trial, and the right of appeal. Deportees are stripped of the right to reasonable bail and are subject to lengthy terms of pre-trial incarceration during their mostly futile battles to remain in Canada. They may face torture or execution in their destination country upon deportation. The Certificates are in effect a railroad from Canada which subject a deportee to expulsion from this country at the whim of the government executives and with the oversight of a judge presiding over a secret trial.
________________________________________ _________________________
The existence of Star Chamber proceedings unfettered by public accountability is anathema to fundamental due process protections and is an embarrassment to the roots of our democratic principles. It is time for the BCCLA to join the many Canadian critics in conspicuous condemnation of these medieval proceedings and in calling for legislative reform

.

Currently there are atleast five men being held under Security Certificates

-the following link summarizes the plight of this five men and specifically on Mohamed Harkat who reportedly was detained in solitary confinement for close to 350 days before finally being moved to Maximum Security. To date there has been no tangible evidence put forth explaining why.
http://www.zerra.net/freemohamed/con...hp?content.180

-Amnesty International link
http://www.amnesty.ca/take_action/ac...rtificates.php

-Government of Canada link
http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/newsroom/...tificat-e.html

[mugwump]

safety > freedom

[fable]

Originally Posted by mugwump

safety > freedom

ELOBORATE YOU LIBERTERIAN BASTARD! :)

[Vitamin-X]

Terrorism is a new game....Requires new rules.

Personally I can't evision myself ever being taken in this way.
The people who have to fear are those of certain ethicities that are
identifiable with terrorism; just as three strikes was made for black
people. This kind of lawmaking is targeted.

[mugwump]

Originally Posted by fable

ELOBORATE YOU LIBERTERIAN BASTARD! :)

a padded cell is the safest place in the world

[fable]

Terrorism is a new game....Requires new rules.

STEP AWAY FROM THE PAUL WOLFEWITZ MANIFESTO!!!

The idea of "terrorism" is so fucking convoluted and inherently racist, that even the most apathetic and cynical of citizens in this day and age cant help but illicit at least a faint "eye rolling" or "snicker" when they hear or read the word.

Your completely correct about "new rules," but they take credit from legislature that was around since the early ninties, both here and in the US. The premise of these "new rules" are put in place, because as the imperialist drive, and new capitalist experiments take place in third world countries, the number of refugees, and the size of resistance to the government will increase.

The trully disgusting thing, is that the countries that refugees are despertly trying to enter, either illegally, or by putting themselves in a position of pure financial enslavement, are the very same countries that have a large part to play in the reasons why there is instability in the first place.

[mugwump]

Originally Posted by fable

STEP AWAY FROM THE PAUL WOLFEWITZ MANIFESTO!!!

The idea of "terrorism" is so fucking convoluted and inherently racist, that even the most apathetic and cynical of citizens in this day and age cant help but illicit at least a faint "eye rolling" or "snicker" when they hear or read the word.

Your completely correct about "new rules," but they take credit from legislature that was around since the early ninties, both here and in the US. The premise of these "new rules" are put in place, because as the imperialist drive, and new capitalist experiments take place in third world countries, the number of refugees, and the size of resistance to the government will increase.

The trully disgusting thing, is that the countries that refugees are despertly trying to enter, either illegally, or by putting themselves in a position of pure financial enslavement, are the very same countries that have a large part to play in the reasons why there is instability in the first place.

is everything inherently 'racist' 'capitalist' and 'oppressive' to you?

[Vitamin-X]

Some of that may be true.^^

Yet quite honestly, I don't really concern myself with what goes on
in the third world or developing countries. I do however expect my government to take measures to protect me and my family from outside forces who wish to attack us. To not take actions neccessary to prevent or punish terror attacks due to a fear of being called racist would be ludacris.
This looks to be the purpose of these new certificates.

I can probably speak for most of society when I say I could care less if the government held a hundred men for a thousand days; as long as it prevented an attack. It's the "do what you must, keep it quiet and keep the trains running on time" attitude.

[fable]

is everything inherently 'racist' 'capitalist' and 'oppressive' to you?

Do you think a simple yes or no, would answer that fucking question? I dont.

But for the sake of conversation and at the risk of stereotyping, generalizing, and over simplifying my beliefs, then YES, i think that a disporportionate percentage of ALL governmental policy whether domestic or foreign, combined with a large percentage of large corporate ideals in practise, ARE in some way or form either racist, capitalist(redundant point) or oppressive to atleast one specific community at any given time.

Clarify things for you?

What about you? Care to reciprocate the generalization, over simplification and stereotyping of your own thoughts and beliefs of our Canadian government and big business structure?

[mugwump]

Originally Posted by fable

Do you think a simple yes or no, would answer that fucking question? I dont.

But for the sake of conversation and at the risk of stereotyping, generalizing, and over simplifying my beliefs, then YES, i think that a disporportionate percentage of ALL governmental policy whether domestic or foreign, combined with a large percentage of large corporate ideals in practise, ARE in some way or form either racist, capitalist(redundant point) or oppressive to atleast one specific community at any given time.

Clarify things for you?

What about you? Care to reciprocate the generalization, over simplification and stereotyping of your own thoughts and beliefs of our Canadian government and big business structure?

I think the illuminati has a beef with everyone, whites and Jews included.

[fable]

Originally Posted by mugwump

I think the illuminati has a beef with everyone, whites and Jews included.

hahahahaha! touche-

[dabbler]

that link is bullshit, just keeps relating to the "he doesn't advocate violence" line, which
a) he could be lying, just cause he says that doesn't make it true.
b) he obviously did something wrong, no one would be in his situation without cause
c) there are MANY ways to be considered a "threat to national security"
d) he admits to being a patriarch of a white supremesist group (which is odd, considering that his name would indicate he's not white)
e) who the fuck cares? he's a rascist asshole, with many connections to the wrong people, let him rot without due justice

by posting this link, are you contending that this is wrong of the government to do?

[fable]

Yet quite honestly, I don't really concern myself with what goes on
in the third world or developing countries.

But if you and a large population of Canada presumabley dont care about such countries then why does Canadian Government care so much that they have operations and millions of dollars invested in such nations? Last time i checked a loose interpretation of what government is under a "democratic society" is a body that represents our needs as a nation and orchestrate the administration of the sytems and processes to meet those needs.

-you dont care, and perhaps a large population dont care/ but a government that is suppossed to represent what you and many others care or dont care about is pouring millions into other countries for "redevelopment" for "rehabiliation" and for "reconstruction" and of course to "bring democracy"

I can probably speak for most of society when I say I could care less if the government held a hundred men for a thousand days; as long as it prevented an attack. It's the "do what you must, keep it quiet and keep the trains running on time" attitude.

Do you say this out of anger? Because, you had mentioned before that you belived that such policy as security certificates was there protect you - "protect me and my family" and you also stated that to ignore such policy because of the fear of racism would be "ludicris" You then went so far as to explain that you could care less if "the government held a hundred men for a thousand days" as long as YOU felt protected along with YOUR family. Am i correct?

So from this, would i be warranted in assuming that YOUR NEED FOR PROTECTION OOUTWEIGHS THE PRINCIPLES OF DEMOCRACY AND MORE IMPORTANTLY BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS?

I think the original fears of attack were orchestrated and exploited, I think it was fed to you alongside ideas of Nationalism and Freedom. I think that somewhere along the way, the government some how managed to convince you that the assault on basic human rights was acceptable in the name of Freedom. YOUR FREEDOM AT THE COST OF ANOTHER.

Im glad you feel protected.

[dabbler]

^^^^ what he was referring to was if those holding those men would prevent an attack.... as in IF THEY WERE GOING TO ATTACK SOMEONE, WHY SHOULDN'T THEY BE HELD?

or you think they should be free to do what they want until AFTER the attack?

[fable]

that link is bullshit, just keeps relating to the "he doesn't advocate violence" line, which
a) he could be lying, just cause he says that doesn't make it true.
b) he obviously did something wrong, no one would be in his situation without cause
c) there are MANY ways to be considered a "threat to national security"
d) he admits to being a patriarch of a white supremesist group (which is odd, considering that his name would indicate he's not white)
e) who the fuck cares? he's a rascist asshole, with many connections to the wrong people, let him rot without due justice
by posting this link, are you contending that this is wrong of the government to do?
^^^^ what he was referring to was if those holding those men would prevent an attack.... as in IF THEY WERE GOING TO ATTACK SOMEONE, WHY SHOULDN'T THEY BE HELD?
or you think they should be free to do what they want until AFTER the attack?

I only spent two years studying canadian criminal law, so i garantee theres heads here that can probably address your points with far more education, but ill give it crack dabs.

The premise and the hersay that allows Canadian Government to hold five middle eastern men under the SUSPICION of engaging in crime WOULD NOT HOLD UP IN A SINGLE CANADIAN LAW COURT

The differentiation between the cases(or lack of) of the five men in question is based solely on the the SUSPICION of posing a national threat.

North American policy on "Terrorism" has always been confusing, illigitemate and racist. But it wasnt until the war drive of the US, Canada and the UK kicked into high gear in the late ninties/early 2000 that "terrorist attacks" escalated. It is important to note than atleast half of "terrorist attacks" across the world were isolated, misrepresented and are still to this day unclarified. Nonetheless National Security Policy changed after the 9/11 bombing(and although not essentially relevant- even the information about this attack is unclear to this day)

So today, we and the US have National Security policy that has escalated diretly parallel to our own involvement internationally. We have a National Security policy that is mired in conflict, confusion, conspiracy, and rhetoric. These are policies that have succesfully alienated ethnic groups including the most suspected - men of muslim heritage aged 23-45. These are policies that have effectivelly divided not only segments of the parliment but the more importantly the general population.

So, with saying this, what do we have with current Security Certificates and Immigration and Refugee Policy.

a)We have a government who has the power to detain for no reason other than ethnic background and suspicion, men and women who pose a "threat to national security' A level of "national security" that many in the population and even the government are unable to clarify.

b)In the midst of all this, we have policy that would be deemed inhuman and undemocratic in any other context.

c) We have a process that cannot be questioned or evaluated, by any except the people who enact such policy.

You spoke on how the accused was "a rascist asshole, with many connections to the wrong people, let him rot without due justice"

The fact is, that i could accuse YOU of the same thing, but you would never rot in prison iwithout due justice, whereas they would, because the real racism is how canadian government can put five men in jail, with no rhyme or reason based on a threat that is based on ETHNIC BACKGROUND.

If you were a skinhead (heehee) and preached hate, and uttered threats (which in the case of the accused is complete lies in my belief) you would still have the RIGHT to humanistic justice under societal beliefs, "democracy" and International conventions. Why? Becuae YOU ARE A CAUCASIAN CANADIAN. Its not racist to call you this, whats racist is why someone who isnt, isnt affored the same rights YOU HAVE.

or you think they should be free to do what they want until AFTER the attack?

thats fucking really tacky, even coming from you man.

but in reply :

·Being imprisoned indefinitely on secret evidence, though no charges have been laid against them;

·Tried in unfair trials where the evidence is not disclosed to the detainee or their lawyer;

·Denied the right to appeal when the certificate is upheld in a process that uses the lowest standard of proof of any court in Canada;

·Subject to deportation even when they face unfair imprisonment, torture or death.

These are the actions of a government that does not practise humanitarian ideals or racial equality, rather they are the actions of a government that peddles the illusion of "democracy" and enacts anything but.

[mugwump]

If you were a skinhead (heehee) and preached hate, and uttered threats (which in the case of the accused is complete lies in my belief) you would still have the RIGHT to humanistic justice under societal beliefs, "democracy" and International conventions. Why? Becuae YOU ARE A CAUCASIAN CANADIAN. Its not racist to call you this, whats racist is why someone who isnt, isnt affored the same rights YOU HAVE.

This isn't true at all. Any outward expression of a 'white identity' is automatically branded as neo-nazism or white supremicism. If anything, we see minorities, like that black guy on C-SPAN, who openly say things like Whites need to be exterminated off the face of the earth.

The same is true for out of control Muslim imams who preach Jihad and death to their host European countries, and when someone brings attention to this, they are branded as 'nazis' and charged with hate crimes.

You're being controlled by your leftist handlers to hate 'whitey'. good job.

[dabbler]

so don't you think that the evidence they aren't telling anyone would obviously mean they have good reason? why would they bother if not for GOOD REASON. it's as simple as that. for all the shit it can stir up, they obviously have deemed it important enough to deal with this even illegally, and so purely on that basis, i trust that he is where he should be. and no, you CAN'T accuse me of being a rascist, and then it's the same thing..... he ADMITS it for fucks sake. these aren't random false accusations here.... and if you think they are, what's the motive?

[fable]

easy there partner. If you wanna throw down keep spitting the personal bullshit.

Personal handlers? Is that like the two sugar daddys you got out in westvan? You get the rolex, they get the young stud loving? Didnt i see you on a skytrain add?

Hate whitey? No, silly, its government i hate, and most of them just happen to be white!

Naw but seriouslly, I think the rising anit western culture ideology, or atleast anit 1st world ideology is just being twisted into anti-whitey by goofs like you. The perpetuation of the "white race" takes the cake for longest shift, and just becuase over the last few years theres been a shift change, as a direct result of a 6000% increase of media coverage on middle easter issues, your idea that the new predominant racism is in fact directed to caucasion people IS BULLSHIT! Its going to be eons, before the "white mans burden" switches things around.

[fable]

he ADMITS it for fucks sake. these aren't random false accusations here.... and if you think they are, what's the motive?

Point out the admission dabs, im fucking blind?

Would it be to "conspiracy theorist" that our ever elusive CSIS is threatening further action, such deportation to a specific area in algeria? Or perhaps making the wifes life hell(not that it is already?)

Nonetheless your prior comments were far more expansive then just this one trial.

[dabbler]

"However, there are reasonable grounds to believe that Mr. Zundel is a danger to national security or to the safety of any persons. Although Mr. Zundel has virtually no history or direct personal engagement in acts of serious violence, his status within the White Supremacist Movement is such that adherence (sic) are inspired to carry out his acts in pursuance of his ideology."

[dabbler]

"The Ministers have provided considerable evidence, that cannot be disclosed for reasons of national security, that Mr. Zundel has extensive contacts within the violent racist and extremist movement. Mr. Zundel stated in his testimony that he know the following people slightly, or had professional contacts with them, or had interviewed them as a reporter. Information showed, rather, that he had dealt with them a great deal more, in some cases had funded their activities, and generally had maintained much closer ties than what he had admitted to in his examination or cross-examination."

[Vitamin-X]

Personally I don't see the great problem with ethnically targeting terrorists.
Seriously, like we don't know that 99% of them are muslum.
It makes sense, If you're looking for deer that live in sherwood forest you should hunt in sherwood forest. Not wonder around the country pretending the deer could be anywhere.

If for some reason Canadians enjoyed blowing up chinese buildings and marketplaces would I be "oh my god, I can't believe the chinese are hasselling me"
I doubt it.

When it comes to security I'll get petty, I'm not willing to give up my piece of mind just so potential terrorists can live here.
I don't care if that's considered mean or racist, as long as Canadian body parts aren't raining from the sky, I'll live with it.

[fable]

Well i guess admitting you are a racist, along side sharing narrow minded, stereotype forming, reactionary comments is a step???

good luck.

[fable]

Originally Posted by dabbler

"The Ministers have provided considerable evidence, that cannot be disclosed for reasons of national security, that Mr. Zundel has extensive contacts within the violent racist and extremist movement. Mr. Zundel stated in his testimony that he know the following people slightly, or had professional contacts with them, or had interviewed them as a reporter. Information showed, rather, that he had dealt with them a great deal more, in some cases had funded their activities, and generally had maintained much closer ties than what he had admitted to in his examination or cross-examination."

considerable information....that cannot be shared with anyone except governmental authorities, who represent a government with a clean slate, no blood on their hands, no corruption, and no history of oppression.

HOORAY FOR NATIONAL SECURITY!!! AND THE "WHITE" CANADIAN

Hey first of all Canada is safe, it has not been attacked by any terroist organizations that i can remember of. This isn't the states, where puppets rule the country and make stupid decisions. You are safe in Canada, Canada isn't pissing anyone of or anything like that.

fable you are very opinionated, which is wonderful, but you are making some really rude remarks to the people that don't agree with your opinion. Everyone has a right to say whatever they want, let them have their own opinion, nobody has to agree with you.