Castro cedes power to his Brother...

[Goat]

Originally Posted by fable

Wow, your buddy's all class. Rents a hooker for a week and brags about it?

Hookers are people too yo! Girl's just trying to make a buck. Because you don't believe it's acceptable doesn't mean shyte.

[mapleleaf4ever]

Originally Posted by fable

Wow, your buddy's all class. Rents a hooker for a week and brags about it?

Apparently it's rather common amongst People that visit there. A lot of People with oodles of "class" out East apparently. lol

[inside]

Castro is the man!

[SEAN!]

Originally Posted by fable

Can you elaborate mate?

a few hastily prepared examples, the last one is the best even though it is clearly biased just because it points out what the state is legally allowed to do to its people
http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/humrts.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Cuba
http://www.reed.edu/~sugarmas/211midterm.pdf
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/Rea...e.asp?ID=22514


the only thing the revolution has done is created is a system where the upper class and social mobility is determined soley by one's allegiance to the party and state apparatus. also unlike in our country if you oppose the government you are shot or put in jail without trial. it is no utopia, if anything its worst.

[fable]

Originally Posted by SEAN!

a few hastily prepared examples, the last one is the best even though it is clearly biased just because it points out what the state is legally allowed to do to its people
http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/humrts.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Cuba
http://www.reed.edu/~sugarmas/211midterm.pdf
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/Rea...e.asp?ID=22514


the only thing the revolution has done is created is a system where the upper class and social mobility is determined soley by one's allegiance to the party and state apparatus. also unlike in our country if you oppose the government you are shot or put in jail without trial. it is no utopia, if anything its worst.

Thanks for replying Sean. I think there is obviously a massive difference in perspective between the two of us. But wikipedia!? Gross mate, GROSS!

Here’s my take:

I have no doubt in my mind that Cuba has its share of problems, like all countries imperialist/capitalist or otherwise. Cuba still sees its share of bureaucratic corruption, and this reality has been growing of late. There is also level of community unrest and dissatisfaction across Cuba.

But what makes Cuba SO important in terms to resistance, revolution or evolution of the idea of socialism in general is the process it still continues amidst massive US oppression/attack, and more importantly who is carrying out the process.

Castro aside, Che's history aside, Camille's history aside - the primary driving force of the political growth and strength since the overthrow of Batista has and always be the regular working/poor Cuban people. The youth, the poor, the regular Cubans. Even dissatisfied Cubans as dissent is actually encouraged in a constructive, vocal manner within grassroots debate or dialogue.

It must be pointed out that asides from internal problems, most reports of human rights infringements are grossly misinformed, and your comment about dissenting against the government also is grossly misinformed, almost to the point of being a lie. Although there is an expected support of government action, it is the intermediate steps that are far more important. Because the eventual government action is determined by the people. by the countless city blocks that each have their own representation or "Centers for the Defense of the Revolution" or "CDR's" The idea that you will be thrown into jail because of your political beliefs is a fallacy. Because the process that is enacted before any final decision is made within the government involves 100% of community participation

We also cannot automatically look at Cuba's political process through the eyes of what socialism was "advertised as" The utopian socialist ideals where around before Marx and have long been dissected and newly articulated. Cuba, its government, its people have NEVER communicated their social and political progress as utopian or even as a widespread model for the world, rather they have communicated their APPROACH of developing a political system that is specialized for their own environment and eventually and ultimately for humanity. When considering humanity and what it could entail we need to separate ourselves from our capitalist background, because the system in which we live under in this continent has NEVER been about the empowerment or betterment of regular people. It has ALWAYS been about profit, and quest for profit, the path of popular economics has NEVER been about equality, and because of the lack of equality, there is the lack of unity, and without unity, no substantial change has been able to occur without being labeled as "radical" or "extreme"

But I want to return to the comments about human rights infringements or totalitarianism. I have already briefly communicated the REALITY of the level of politicization and subsequent participation of regular Cuban people. And when I mean regular Cuban people, I mean ALL classes of Cuban people including the poorest of the poor, what I don’t include is the rich, spoiled, bitter and opportunistic exiles in Miami.

Most of the misinformation has spread from one source and one source only - the US! But as we already know from every other major political American campaign, such campaigns are dictated by self-interest and always involve half-truths and lies. SINCE DAY 1.

The US has placed the most suffocating of blockades on Cuba. More extreme than any economic sanctions in history. More than even the economic sanction placed on Iraq that was responsible for at least 3 million deaths! The US not only sets a blockade between the US and Cuba but enforces such a policy between almost ALL other countries across the world at the risk of loosing valuable trade options with the US itself! 40 years of BLOCKADE! If there was ever a more obvious perpetuation of poverty, corruption and human suffering it could only be perhaps the various imperialist war campaigns that have been launched, which in terms of shear length, could then also only be the Israel apartheid regime over Palestine.

And even despite the falling of the Soviet Communist bloc, Cuba was able to survive through their "special period"

Yes Cuba struggles, but it is a more honest and humane struggle than anywhere else in the world in terms of longevity. If you really want to know what is at the core of the suffering in Cuba or corruption look across the border mate.

Cuba is an example for the rest of the world because of their struggle and longevity in resistance to imperialism, monopoly capitalism, whatever you want to call it. But whether you are a blind slave to popular economic or not, you would be outright lying to yourself if you believe that imperialism/capitalism is the greatest enemy on the planet and the single unifying reason of the worlds suffering.

Cuba is an example because of what they are able accomplish DESPITE the capitalist illusions that are propagated across the globe - "Western Social Democracy" "Multiculturalism," "Humanitarian Economics," "Democratic political participation of young people," etc etc ALL BULLSHIT and HOLLOW in this continent.. Yes there is hunger, there is poverty, there is struggle in Cuba, but it is amidst a struggle more honest than anything we have hear. The shear disparity of quality of life across class demographics should be enough to make obvious the bullshit nature of Western Capitalist criticism of Cuba.

I think you raise important points SEAN! and instead of going our usual route of bullshit dialogue I invite you out to a Cuba solidarity, or informational event. It would be an honor to have you attend. Like I mentioned before you are extremely knowledgeable and I think if you attend such an event you would gain some insight into Cuba at the very least.

I have had members of the Cuban government share food in run down backyards of organizers houses discussing politics and the participation of politicized young people with me on several occasions. The same goes for members of the Venezuelan government. 18 of my close comrades have been to Cuba at least once, and have worked there with the political parties and organizations down there. And there is no doubt in my mind that through these experiences as well as working with such organizations as Vancouver Communities in Solidarity with Cuba, Free the Cuban 5 Coalition, La Surda Latin American Collective, Canadian Cuban Friendship Society, and International Bolivarian Circle I have had somewhat of an expansive, relative experience with learning about the true nature of social politics in Cuba without yet being able to spend time in Cuba.

But I have my own criticisms nonetheless of the political process in Cuba, as well as many questions that still need answering. So im involved, and I invite you out and soon as possible to an event, and we can discuss more.

ez
shak

[fable]

Originally Posted by Goat

Hookers are people too yo! Girl's just trying to make a buck. Because you don't believe it's acceptable doesn't mean shyte.

Er, not funny mate. But just in case you are as big an idiot as you come off to be, it wasnt the prostitutes I was condeming, it was the sick fucks, or non-men who expoite them and perpetuate the whole system in general.

[crookedking]

Originally Posted by fable

Wow, your buddy's all class. Rents a hooker for a week and brags about it?

is that the sort of thing that you would keep to yourself?

[SEAN!]

Originally Posted by fable

Thanks for replying Sean. I think there is obviously a massive difference in perspective between the two of us. But wikipedia!? Gross mate, GROSS!

Here’s my take:

I have no doubt in my mind that Cuba has its share of problems, like all countries imperialist/capitalist or otherwise. Cuba still sees its share of bureaucratic corruption, and this reality has been growing of late. There is also level of community unrest and dissatisfaction across Cuba.

But what makes Cuba SO important in terms to resistance, revolution or evolution of the idea of socialism in general is the process it still continues amidst massive US oppression/attack, and more importantly who is carrying out the process.

Castro aside, Che's history aside, Camille's history aside - the primary driving force of the political growth and strength since the overthrow of Batista has and always be the regular working/poor Cuban people. The youth, the poor, the regular Cubans. Even dissatisfied Cubans as dissent is actually encouraged in a constructive, vocal manner within grassroots debate or dialogue.

It must be pointed out that asides from internal problems, most reports of human rights infringements are grossly misinformed, and your comment about dissenting against the government also is grossly misinformed, almost to the point of being a lie. Although there is an expected support of government action, it is the intermediate steps that are far more important. Because the eventual government action is determined by the people. by the countless city blocks that each have their own representation or "Centers for the Defense of the Revolution" or "CDR's" The idea that you will be thrown into jail because of your political beliefs is a fallacy. Because the process that is enacted before any final decision is made within the government involves 100% of community participation

We also cannot automatically look at Cuba's political process through the eyes of what socialism was "advertised as" The utopian socialist ideals where around before Marx and have long been dissected and newly articulated. Cuba, its government, its people have NEVER communicated their social and political progress as utopian or even as a widespread model for the world, rather they have communicated their APPROACH of developing a political system that is specialized for their own environment and eventually and ultimately for humanity. When considering humanity and what it could entail we need to separate ourselves from our capitalist background, because the system in which we live under in this continent has NEVER been about the empowerment or betterment of regular people. It has ALWAYS been about profit, and quest for profit, the path of popular economics has NEVER been about equality, and because of the lack of equality, there is the lack of unity, and without unity, no substantial change has been able to occur without being labeled as "radical" or "extreme"

But I want to return to the comments about human rights infringements or totalitarianism. I have already briefly communicated the REALITY of the level of politicization and subsequent participation of regular Cuban people. And when I mean regular Cuban people, I mean ALL classes of Cuban people including the poorest of the poor, what I don’t include is the rich, spoiled, bitter and opportunistic exiles in Miami.

Most of the misinformation has spread from one source and one source only - the US! But as we already know from every other major political American campaign, such campaigns are dictated by self-interest and always involve half-truths and lies. SINCE DAY 1.

The US has placed the most suffocating of blockades on Cuba. More extreme than any economic sanctions in history. More than even the economic sanction placed on Iraq that was responsible for at least 3 million deaths! The US not only sets a blockade between the US and Cuba but enforces such a policy between almost ALL other countries across the world at the risk of loosing valuable trade options with the US itself! 40 years of BLOCKADE! If there was ever a more obvious perpetuation of poverty, corruption and human suffering it could only be perhaps the various imperialist war campaigns that have been launched, which in terms of shear length, could then also only be the Israel apartheid regime over Palestine.

And even despite the falling of the Soviet Communist bloc, Cuba was able to survive through their "special period"

Yes Cuba struggles, but it is a more honest and humane struggle than anywhere else in the world in terms of longevity. If you really want to know what is at the core of the suffering in Cuba or corruption look across the border mate.

Cuba is an example for the rest of the world because of their struggle and longevity in resistance to imperialism, monopoly capitalism, whatever you want to call it. But whether you are a blind slave to popular economic or not, you would be outright lying to yourself if you believe that imperialism/capitalism is the greatest enemy on the planet and the single unifying reason of the worlds suffering.

Cuba is an example because of what they are able accomplish DESPITE the capitalist illusions that are propagated across the globe - "Western Social Democracy" "Multiculturalism," "Humanitarian Economics," "Democratic political participation of young people," etc etc ALL BULLSHIT and HOLLOW in this continent.. Yes there is hunger, there is poverty, there is struggle in Cuba, but it is amidst a struggle more honest than anything we have hear. The shear disparity of quality of life across class demographics should be enough to make obvious the bullshit nature of Western Capitalist criticism of Cuba.

I think you raise important points SEAN! and instead of going our usual route of bullshit dialogue I invite you out to a Cuba solidarity, or informational event. It would be an honor to have you attend. Like I mentioned before you are extremely knowledgeable and I think if you attend such an event you would gain some insight into Cuba at the very least.

I have had members of the Cuban government share food in run down backyards of organizers houses discussing politics and the participation of politicized young people with me on several occasions. The same goes for members of the Venezuelan government. 18 of my close comrades have been to Cuba at least once, and have worked there with the political parties and organizations down there. And there is no doubt in my mind that through these experiences as well as working with such organizations as Vancouver Communities in Solidarity with Cuba, Free the Cuban 5 Coalition, La Surda Latin American Collective, Canadian Cuban Friendship Society, and International Bolivarian Circle I have had somewhat of an expansive, relative experience with learning about the true nature of social politics in Cuba without yet being able to spend time in Cuba.

But I have my own criticisms nonetheless of the political process in Cuba, as well as many questions that still need answering. So im involved, and I invite you out and soon as possible to an event, and we can discuss more.

ez
shak

have you ever stopped to think how the CDR's are a pretty effective tool in disseminanting propaghanda or co-opt dissent. look the facts are right there in front of you, just take a look at the cuban constitution, these people are not free, they are oppressed and they are poor. The term 'revolution' is simply a paraphrase for 'we'll we've kicked out the last assholes who you thought treated you like shit, now just wait and see what we have in store for you. but hey its okay we have a funky new ideology to justify our actions.'

shit, if you look at the works of louis althusser, who is an ardent marxist, you can see the exact state apparatuses which he critiqued as oppressive and necessary for the survival of the capitalist system, exist in all socialist states. Only these institutions are far more powerful and cemented into every day life in these contries then they are in capitalist western democracies. Maybe if you had a clue, you'd realize that the cuban revolution and chavez's "boliviarian revolution" is more akin to the enslavement of a country by a populist political party then any attempt to free the working class. All this discourse about helping the working class is an attempt to conceal what is really just a grab for power.

If you take a critical look at the numbers, the de facto and de jure stutcture of the judiciary of these countries and their institutions and you will realize that you are wrong and they live like. I could tell you the life stories of my uncle who had to escape from a socialist country because of social, political and economic oppression. Cuban's have to live like that every single day, while those of us who live in the 'evil' western world live extremely enviable life styles. why would you want to trade what you have now for a country where people tell you what to do, what to think, where you dont own anyhting, yet you still have to work every day and the government determines what compensation you get. that type of situation is essentially slavery.

Anyway all debate with you is pointless, you an extremist fundamentalist, and as such you are completely brainwashed.

p.s the u.s itself is the only country with a blokade on cuba, canada dose about 1 billion usd of trade with them a year. why would i go to a cuban solidarity movement meeting, so i could listen to abunch of misinformation spouted by a bunch of angry activist who dont know shit?

As for the cdr's the have a similar sysatem in china, where citizens are allowed to petition the government in beijing about problems in their community. only the people who do our routinely beaten or killed by party officials in their community.

[fable]

Originally Posted by SEAN!

have you ever stopped to think how the CDR's are a pretty effective tool in disseminanting propaghanda or co-opt dissent. look the facts are right there in front of you, just take a look at the cuban constitution, these people are not free, they are oppressed and they are poor. The term 'revolution' is simply a paraphrase for 'we'll we've kicked out the last assholes who you thought treated you like shit, now just wait and see what we have in store for you. but hey its okay we have a funky new ideology to justify our actions.'

shit, if you look at the works of louis althusser, who is an ardent marxist, you can see the exact state apparatuses which he critiqued as oppressive and necessary for the survival of the capitalist system, exist in all socialist states. Only these institutions are far more powerful and cemented into every day life in these contries then they are in capitalist western democracies. Maybe if you had a clue, you'd realize that the cuban revolution and chavez's "boliviarian revolution" is more akin to the enslavement of a country by a populist political party then any attempt to free the working class. All this discourse about helping the working class is an attempt to conceal what is really just a grab for power.

If you take a critical look at the numbers, the de facto and de jure stutcture of the judiciary of these countries and their institutions and you will realize that you are wrong and they live like. I could tell you the life stories of my uncle who had to escape from a socialist country because of social, political and economic oppression. Cuban's have to live like that every single day, while those of us who live in the 'evil' western world live extremely enviable life styles. why would you want to trade what you have now for a country where people tell you what to do, what to think, where you dont own anyhting, yet you still have to work every day and the government determines what compensation you get. that type of situation is essentially slavery.

Anyway all debate with you is pointless, you an extremist fundamentalist, and as such you are completely brainwashed.

p.s the u.s itself is the only country with a blokade on cuba, canada dose about 1 billion usd of trade with them a year. why would i go to a cuban solidarity movement meeting, so i could listen to abunch of misinformation spouted by a bunch of angry activist who dont know shit?

As for the cdr's the have a similar sysatem in china, where citizens are allowed to petition the government in beijing about problems in their community. only the people who do our routinely beaten or killed by party officials in their community.

I know you have something more than pointing out that Canada does in fact trade with Cuba. (Of which is common knowledge, what isn’t common is the level of US interference in any possible trade between Cuba and other nations)

Im also sorry to hear about your uncle. Im even more sorry to hear, that his trials and tribulations (im assuming in eastern Europe?) have somehow clouded your judgment about socialist ideals. However, if we go back to my last post,you'll see that in no way shape or form did I say that whatever socialist plan currently entrenched in Cuba is perfect.

I have trouble taking you seriously when you insult in terms of generalizations and stereotypes and in the same breadth quote every major rumor concocted in the hallowed halls of the US administration.

You completely ignored the shear impact of what 40 or so years of economic blockade AGAIN. At no point is anything about said impact in any of your argument? Or is it simply the lack of Nike or Starbucks in Cuba that has you frothing? Is it so easy for you to ignore this? Is relative and almost complete isolation from countries outside of Latin America such a small thing?

I believe I understand with much clarity, the quality of life of Cuban people. I understand there is great poverty; I understand there is unease and frustration. What I don’t understand is your comments about oppressive regimes? What exactly does this oppression look like? If you could give me some tangible and long-standing examples, perhaps this discussion can go somewhere? Or was this another instance of you opening the blinds of what probably amounts to a very small office, sparsely decorated, laden with books and no window?

-Cuba offers and practices free universal education
-Cuba is producing some of the best and most innovative sustainability models in agriculture across the entire world
-Cuba has the highest literacy rate on the planet
-Cuba has put forth more doctors across the world assisting in humanitarian aid and education than any other nation
-Cuba has lower rates of homelessness than any of the major imperialist nations

The only thing that you achieved in communicating in your last post was that the current Political program in Cuba is not perfect. And I agree with you 100%! Its not. But what are you using as a comparison? Ours? A country that still actively oppresses Indigenous peoples? A country that has succeeded in making Imperialist war in the Middle East and actively supports the US and Israel? A nation that undertakes more open pit mining in third world countries than the US, China and Israel put together?

I will continue to keep an invitation for you to come out to any events Im involved with, despite youre dangerous, and prejudiced accusations.

Using such terms as "extremism" and "fundementalist" smacks of a strange irony. In a society and a country where excuses and allowances are made in any and every aspect of the corporate world in the effort of making greater profit, (whether it is as simple as being a workaholic, and as sinister as immoral corporate practice) its amazing that you could call me extreme. For someone as highly educated and active in social reform, I thought you would be above such hollow, irrelevent and baseless remarks.

Nonetheless call me "Extreme" and call me a "Fundamentalist" as much as your heart desires. You wont be the first and you definitely wont be the last. But one last thing SEAN - be ready to back up such accusations when the time comes, and when the times comes, be prepared to act.

[Goat]

Originally Posted by fable

Er, not funny mate. But just in case you are as big an idiot as you come off to be, it wasnt the prostitutes I was condeming, it was the sick fucks, or non-men who expoite them and perpetuate the whole system in general.

It's alright for a girl or guy to lay on their back for money but it's not alright for a guy/girl to talk about the transaction?

Explain that one to me.

[fable]

Originally Posted by Goat

It's alright for a girl or guy to lay on their back for money but it's not alright for a guy/girl to talk about the transaction?

Explain that one to me.

Sure.

Prostitution is a sick fucked up reality. I do not condone it, nor do I find it acceptable. But I also understand that human beings who find themselves in situations where they have to sell their bodies, are seldom doing it because they have huge sexual appetites, or lazy. Usually it comes as a product of ptsd, sexual abuse, poverty, addiction, mental heath issues and adverse conditions that leave a human being in a state of hopelessness.

In light of this reality I am of the belief that the johns, pimps, or perpetuators of the mental, physical, and emotional conditions that convinces a man or women that offering their bodies for money could be an option, are the ones that should be dealt with the most severly - on a personal and societal level.

This does not mean that I think those actaully involved in the sex trade should be absolved of all responsibility, but before we can hope for change, we have to ratify the respective context/enviroment.

Clear enough? If not, why dont you come and join me over a weekend and we can spend sometime downtown on the street, a few strip clubs, some battered women shelters, aa/na/ca meetings, rape relief centers, talk to a handfull of crisis line workers, mental health counsillors, volunteers and prostitutes themselves.

Hopefully we wont get rolled by any number of dealers, pimps, fucked up johns, or pissed off prostitutes.

I have found immersion in the war zone is a great educational tool and cure for naivety, ignorance and jackasses alike.

[Goat]

Do you think strippers and people in the porn scene are also degenerates who have no say over their lives?

[fable]

Originally Posted by Goat

Do you think strippers and people in the porn scene are also degenerates who have no say over their lives?

You're seriously starting to irk me mate. Drop the bullshit, or come up with something thats actaully funny.

[SEAN!]

Originally Posted by fable

I know you have something more than pointing out that Canada does in fact trade with Cuba. (Of which is common knowledge, what isn’t common is the level of US interference in any possible trade between Cuba and other nations)

Im also sorry to hear about your uncle. Im even more sorry to hear, that his trials and tribulations (im assuming in eastern Europe?) have somehow clouded your judgment about socialist ideals. However, if we go back to my last post,you'll see that in no way shape or form did I say that whatever socialist plan currently entrenched in Cuba is perfect.

I have trouble taking you seriously when you insult in terms of generalizations and stereotypes and in the same breadth quote every major rumor concocted in the hallowed halls of the US administration.

You completely ignored the shear impact of what 40 or so years of economic blockade AGAIN. At no point is anything about said impact in any of your argument? Or is it simply the lack of Nike or Starbucks in Cuba that has you frothing? Is it so easy for you to ignore this? Is relative and almost complete isolation from countries outside of Latin America such a small thing?

I believe I understand with much clarity, the quality of life of Cuban people. I understand there is great poverty; I understand there is unease and frustration. What I don’t understand is your comments about oppressive regimes? What exactly does this oppression look like? If you could give me some tangible and long-standing examples, perhaps this discussion can go somewhere? Or was this another instance of you opening the blinds of what probably amounts to a very small office, sparsely decorated, laden with books and no window?

-Cuba offers and practices free universal education
-Cuba is producing some of the best and most innovative sustainability models in agriculture across the entire world
-Cuba has the highest literacy rate on the planet
-Cuba has put forth more doctors across the world assisting in humanitarian aid and education than any other nation
-Cuba has lower rates of homelessness than any of the major imperialist nations

The only thing that you achieved in communicating in your last post was that the current Political program in Cuba is not perfect. And I agree with you 100%! Its not. But what are you using as a comparison? Ours? A country that still actively oppresses Indigenous peoples? A country that has succeeded in making Imperialist war in the Middle East and actively supports the US and Israel? A nation that undertakes more open pit mining in third world countries than the US, China and Israel put together?

I will continue to keep an invitation for you to come out to any events Im involved with, despite youre dangerous, and prejudiced accusations.

Using such terms as "extremism" and "fundementalist" smacks of a strange irony. In a society and a country where excuses and allowances are made in any and every aspect of the corporate world in the effort of making greater profit, (whether it is as simple as being a workaholic, and as sinister as immoral corporate practice) its amazing that you could call me extreme. For someone as highly educated and active in social reform, I thought you would be above such hollow, irrelevent and baseless remarks.

Nonetheless call me "Extreme" and call me a "Fundamentalist" as much as your heart desires. You wont be the first and you definitely wont be the last. But one last thing SEAN - be ready to back up such accusations when the time comes, and when the times comes, be prepared to act.

its funny, because you're consistently wrong yet you are still so entrenched in the idea that socialist dictatorships are somehow a model to follow.

you can mention starbucks and nike and it only more clearly illustrates that you are just another one of the many who oppose everything without understanding anyhting. Especially the policital social and economic ideologies and policies they so vehemently espouse. I dont really care about the lack of capitalism in cuba, it just really irks me to hear unfounded claims and misinformed ideology being spouted like its gospel, especially when its from people who dont even understand the theory or meaning behind what they preach.

You know its funny, you probably are one of those anti consumerist types who mock people who wear branded clothing because you think they wear it because they are seeking a sense of identity. It appears to me that you are the same way with your activism.

as for the economic embargo on cuba, it really is only in effect on us companies and citizens, where as the sanctions on iraq were implemented by the UN so their situation isnt even comparable.

--Cuba offers and practices free universal education
So does:
Australia, Canada, Ireland, Israel, Italy, The United Kingdom, Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Japan, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, Seychelles, South Africa, Spain, Sri Lanka, Sweden, The Republic of China (Taiwan) and one of the states in the U.S

-Cuba is producing some of the best and most innovative sustainability models in agriculture across the entire world
do you have proof other then what david suzuki says? im sure theres some pretty innovative sustainble pratices utilized in canada and everywhere else like, drip irrigation and the prevention of soil erosion. besides, it dosnt really matter since the biggest concern regarding sustainbility is found in our cities and in the way we consume our resources.

-Cuba has the highest literacy rate on the planet
Its not even in the top 25:
http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/r...tion_top25.htm

-Cuba has put forth more doctors across the world assisting in humanitarian aid and education than any other nation
Its not even close, i couldnt find an exact metric for the number of doctors sent around the world but i know the united states gives the most in absolute terms in humanitarian aid and norway gives the most per capita of gdp

-Cuba has lower rates of homelessness than any of the major imperialist nations
the cuban government dosn't have reliable statistics of homelessness, and i couldnt find any so you might be right on that one

as for what oppresion looks like, did you read any thing i wrote? people in cuba cannot speak out against the government, upon fear of death, there is no independant judiciary, you are told where to work, when to work, what to do and you dont get to own any of the fruits of your labour, you are told where to live, if you are not a member of the political party, you have limited access to employment and education, you have to have a permit to travel anywhere in the country, you cannot immigrate out of the country, you are conscripted into the army involuntarily. with all of these facts you still think were opperesed? You should put your money where your mouth is and move to cuba if you think its a moel society.

i think your just too caught up in this revolution bullshit to realize how poorly managed most of those socialist countries are.

[fable]

Originally Posted by SEAN!

its funny, because you're consistently wrong yet you are still so entrenched in the idea that socialist dictatorships are somehow a model to follow.

Socialist dictatorship? DO YOU know what you are talking about? Or do you just know better than millions of Cubans? Is this a "white mans burden" thing or you giving me some more of your academic assessments? There is a significant difference between thinking that a particular model should be followed and understand the importance of a significant model because of its ability to pose an alternative to age old oppressive and racist practices IN ORDER TO LEARN FROM.

you can mention starbucks and nike and it only more clearly illustrates that you are just another one of the many who oppose everything without understanding anyhting. Especially the policital social and economic ideologies and policies they so vehemently espouse. I dont really care about the lack of capitalism in cuba, it just really irks me to hear unfounded claims and misinformed ideology being spouted like its gospel, especially when its from people who dont even understand the theory or meaning behind what they preach.

Yes, I base all my political work and study on the expansion of several corporations and define its legitimacy, practicality and effectiveness by whether there is a starbucks or nike shop around.
YOUR REACHING SEAN!

You know its funny, you probably are one of those anti consumerist types who mock people who wear branded clothing because you think they wear it because they are seeking a sense of identity. It appears to me that you are the same way with your activism.

No, sadly I did not grow up Caucasian, rich, or yesterday. So as a result racism, class oppression, poverty, mental health/addiction issues, abuse at the hands of Police forces, and empathy for similar conditions around the world are in fact fuel behind my politicization. A rabid addiction to reading probably plays a significant role as well.

as for the economic embargo on cuba, it really is only in effect on us companies and citizens, where as the sanctions on iraq were implemented by the UN so their situation isnt even comparable.

What does this mean? That the lack of ability to trade with other nations for even the most basic of materials and goods is inconsequential?

So does:
Australia, Canada, Ireland, Israel, Italy, The United Kingdom, Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Japan, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, Seychelles, South Africa, Spain, Sri Lanka, Sweden, The Republic of China (Taiwan) and one of the states in the U.S

Really? I’ve lived in Canada, the US, spent an extended period of time in Germany + France, most of my family lives in either Australia(asides from Fiji) and/or along both coasts in the US and in my 28 years I haven’t heard from any of these countries boasts about having Free Universal Education up to and through post secondary?

do you have proof other then what david suzuki says? im sure theres some pretty innovative sustainble pratices utilized in canada and everywhere else like, drip irrigation and the prevention of soil erosion. besides, it dosnt really matter since the biggest concern regarding sustainbility is found in our cities and in the way we consume our resources.

Exactly, so in Cuba where population density is far more of issue sustainability technologies are more profound and necessary. "Other than David Suzuki" Yeah, that David guy doesn’t know shit. Committing his entire life to environmental issues (and getting paid outrageous prices to speak) could only mean that he is a complete ignoramus.

Its not even in the top 25:
http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/r...tion_top25.htm

HAHAHAAHAHAH! How long did it take you to find this link?

Its not even close, i couldnt find an exact metric for the number of doctors sent around the world but i know the united states gives the most in absolute terms in humanitarian aid and norway gives the most per capita of gdp

In relation to young people, population Cuba does in fact a higher relative amount of Doctors around the world. Admittedly I do not understand "gives the most per capita of gdp" means?

the cuban government dosn't have reliable statistics of homelessness, and i couldnt find any so you might be right on that one

Reliable? Like Canadian and US statistics?

as for what oppresion looks like, did you read any thing i wrote? people in cuba cannot speak out against the government, upon fear of death, there is no independant judiciary, you are told where to work, when to work, what to do and you dont get to own any of the fruits of your labour, you are told where to live, if you are not a member of the political party, you have limited access to employment and education, you have to have a permit to travel anywhere in the country, you cannot immigrate out of the country, you are conscripted into the army involuntarily. with all of these facts you still think were opperesed? You should put your money where your mouth is and move to cuba if you think its a moel society.

Sean! "put my money where my mouth is and move to cuba" Are you kidding me? This degraded into a preschool slugfest pretty quick didnt it? Once again I will mention to you that I have never, and still do not talk in terms of perfection. And when one thinks a specific system can serve as a model, it implies a philosophical, spiritual, inspirational, educational and organizational study could be made above and beyond building a perfect copy. Speaking out upon fear of death!?!?!??! Where do you get this? I already explained to you my experience and continued involvement with various cuban communities, government officials, and political organizers ACROSS Latin America - but what do have that im missing!? Im really curious to know if its anything asides from the National Post or CNN, or a few spoiled uncle tom sellouts in Miami???

i think your just too caught up in this revolution bullshit to realize how poorly managed most of those socialist countries are.

"too caught up in this revolution bullshit" HAHAHAHAHAHA! And what are you busy with SEAN!? I would think extensive work within the communities that we speak off, consistent reading of a wide spectrum of literature and most importantly a solid commitment to being active and participating in a wide array of social justice events (that find me actually LEAVING my house) would in fact benefit me in terms of having a more peripheral view of the problems at hand and an informed, disciplined, organized and active role in educating myself as well as others.

But who knows, perhaps social isolation, wikipedia, tertiary understanding of Marxism with no personal extrapolation of data/or no attempt to put things into context, and a lack of ability to look at things from the perspective of the most oppressed and attacked of peoples...is a good thing?

I would have to say that even if Cuba found itself in a position that was ten times worse, its resistance to contemporary imperialist nations like the US, who have brought their own brand of oppression in various forms whether it be blockade, full on invasion or legislature like the Monroe doctorine is paramount.

Lastly if Fidel Castro is indeed a tyrant, what does this have to do with US trade policy, let alone the rampant and long lasting US paternalism across the globe?

[fable]

And thanks for pointing out the top literacy rates in the world for me. I was under the impression that Cuba was in the top ten. But despite it not being in the top ten, isnt it interesting that its literacy rate is comparable with the largest and most powerful of western nations? I seem to think so.

[Goat]

Originally Posted by fable

You're seriously starting to irk me mate. Drop the bullshit, or come up with something thats actaully funny.

Tough shit.
What I was getting at was I see a huge and healthy difference between someone who markets themselves, an escort lets say, at a couple hundred bucks an hour and someone sucking dick for crack rocks.

I see someone with direction versus someone with heavy duty baggage, in entirely different circumstances. But they're both prostitution.

To compare someone shooting up after giving a lousy handjob to Jenna Jameson or any other Adult Entertainer or public service provider is rediculous.

Places like Amsterdam and parts of Britain have seen a decrease in violence and exploitation of sex trade workers, while governments have pocketed taxes.Not that exploitation is non existent, but it's the same as any other job - someones always trying to fuck you over.

You're not a eunich are you ?

[fable]

Originally Posted by Goat

Tough shit.
What I was getting at was I see a huge and healthy difference between someone who markets themselves, an escort lets say, at a couple hundred bucks an hour and someone sucking dick for crack rocks.

I see someone with direction versus someone with heavy duty baggage, in entirely different circumstances. But they're both prostitution.

To compare someone shooting up after giving a lousy handjob to Jenna Jameson or any other Adult Entertainer or public service provider is rediculous.

Places like Amsterdam and parts of Britain have seen a decrease in violence and exploitation of sex trade workers, while governments have pocketed taxes.Not that exploitation is non existent, but it's the same as any other job - someones always trying to fuck you over.

Heres a summary of your last post. (im guessing you where drunk)

>There is a significant difference between a street prostitute, an escort and a porn star.

>In Amsterdam where prostitution is legalized and has surface level accountability/public visibility, violence is down.

>There is someone always trying to fuck you over, and prostitution isnt any different.

I smell book deal!!

"you're not a eunich are you?"

>I am but a little boy in the shadow of your amazing masculinity!

[Goat]

Long story short:
I disagree with your views. Every prostitute isn't the junky/physical/mental case being exploited by the 'man' you make them out to be.
At the same time, I don't think prostitution is without problems or the spitting image of good ol' fashioned recreational fun.

Instead of you writing long essays i'll never read and you belittling my writing skills. Lets agree to disagree and shut the fuck up already.

[fable]

Originally Posted by Goat

Every prostitute isn't the junky/physical/mental case being exploited by the 'man' you make them out to be.

Turn off "Pretty Women"