Nas - Hiphop is Dead ('06 release)

[Wood]

^Run DMC & Beastie Boys sought commercial success earlier & in a much bigger way than Wu Tang Clan. Wu is a really bad example of an artist moving away "from legitimate art to a more profitable market" as you put it. Their debut sold platinum with no commercial radio or MTV support - purely on the strength & originality of their art. A lot of people tend to gauge hip hop's authenticity as if it's inversely proportional to it's commercial success... which is a huge discredit to a genre that has re-written the rules for making a commercially successful record.

"DJs/MCs that have been around since the beginning of DefJam and the whole late 80s New York scene (Run-DMC, The Beastie Boys, Afrika Bambaata, etc) are hardly around anymore and they're about as real as hip-hop gets."

This very debate re: the authenticity of hip hop was around back then too... and i doubt anyone bore the brunt of it back then more than the Beastie Boys. Obviously being white didn't help their cause, but it was more their commercial success that branded them as phonies and bought them a wealth of disses on other people's records. Even fellow Caucasian rappers 3rd Bass took shots at them. Now, to people of that same mentality, they're "as real as it gets". Ironic. I loved them then, i love them now, just like i love Luda, Lil' Jon, Pitbull, etc. I'm also a big fan of Zion I, Ugly duckling, and lots of other even lesser known rappers. I don't measure their "realness" by what label they're signed to or how many records they sell.

anyways, haven't checked the Nas album yet but that single is heat! can't wait to get my vinyl copy, that instrumental's gonna get rinsed...

[Goodfellow]

Originally Posted by tiedye

Well.. I think the album's crap, personally. I also think it's a completely commercial release. Just because he's calling out pseudo-purists and saying he doesn't like the direction hip-hop is going doesn't mean he isn't making a buck or two while being backed my a major label. DefJam Records is about as commercial as it gets these days; their past, in my opinion, does not credit the present. I mean, look at the artists they have signed. Everyone from LL Cool J to Redman & Method Man, if I'm not mistaken, and please... Russell Simmons' history is notorious.

The statement is meant to be hostile and egg people on; I get it. I just don't think he is really looking at the natural progression of hip-hop. Since artists like the Wu-Tang Clan emerged, it was clear that the hip-hop community had moved their focus from legitimate art to a more profitable market, which inevitably would help them improve their economic standings. The majority of the target market obviously agrees.

DJs/MCs that have been around since the beginning of DefJam and the whole late 80s New York scene (Run-DMC, The Beastie Boys, Afrika Bambaata, etc) are hardly around anymore and they're about as real as hip-hop gets.

Anyways, that's my 3 minute stoned rant. Your thoughts?

*awaits the inevitable reeming from the hip-hoppers*

edit: Oh, and for the record, I'm into hip-hop acts like Abstract Rude, People Under the Stairs, Run-DMC, The Beastie Boys, and KRS-One.. stuff like that. So that might cast light on my opinion.

Well I'm not gunna get into a big winded response with you, I wasn't posting up this album trying to say "OMG look at this album it's sooooo much better than all the classic albums in hiphop in the last 10 years" I was merely puttin it out there, because it's a solid album.

If you look at actual rap "skill" Nas blows the doors off beastie boys. Sure I will always love beastie boys, but they have very simple structure and rhyming.

I make beats and rap everyday, I know how long it takes to make beats that good and to rap abstract with mostly multi word rhymes. That's why I appreciate the album, I don't really care how "commercial" it is.

[tiedye]

Originally Posted by Wood

^Run DMC & Beastie Boys sought commercial success earlier & in a much bigger way than Wu Tang Clan. Wu is a really bad example of an artist moving away "from legitimate art to a more profitable market" as you put it. Their debut sold platinum with no commercial radio or MTV support - purely on the strength & originality of their art. A lot of people tend to gauge hip hop's authenticity as if it's inversely proportional to it's commercial success... which is a huge discredit to a genre that has re-written the rules for making a commercially successful record.

"DJs/MCs that have been around since the beginning of DefJam and the whole late 80s New York scene (Run-DMC, The Beastie Boys, Afrika Bambaata, etc) are hardly around anymore and they're about as real as hip-hop gets."

It's true the Beastie Boys and Run-DMC went for the commercial success long before these people did, but I think a lot of credit is owed in this regard because that success was earned through pioneer work. Those two groups were the first officially signed hip-hop groups, I'm pretty sure. Of course they started world tours before any other groups, and the Beasties were trend setters from the get-go, mostly due to their controversial nature which the fans responded to immensely (ie. Mike D's Volkswagen emblem which resulted in hundreds of fans stealing the symbols off of VWs everywhere). What I was getting at with the Wu-Tang was the merchandising aspect of it. Keep in mind it has been some time since I've read anything about this, but I am sure it was them who began to market self-inspired products to be eaten up by the fans before it became a prominent aspect of hip-hop. They even had several stores opened, although to their credit they did do a lot of it to give back to the black community. Mostly what I dislike is the move towards the present "crunk" style.

This very debate re: the authenticity of hip hop was around back then too... and i doubt anyone bore the brunt of it back then more than the Beastie Boys. Obviously being white didn't help their cause, but it was more their commercial success that branded them as phonies and bought them a wealth of disses on other people's records. Even fellow Caucasian rappers 3rd Bass took shots at them. Now, to people of that same mentality, they're "as real as it gets". Ironic. I loved them then, i love them now, just like i love Luda, Lil' Jon, Pitbull, etc. I'm also a big fan of Zion I, Ugly duckling, and lots of other even lesser known rappers.

In my opinion, although I do completely agree with the caucasian point, is that a lot of the hate for the Beasties' had to do with the fact that nobody was doing what they were doing, as well as their sense of humour which was obviously a love/hate quality. They pushed a lot of envelopes in the production of their music. I mean, just look at Paul's Boutique compared to the other albums released that year. Anyways, I didn't bring them up in my original post to start glorifying them. They were just an example.

I don't measure their "realness" by what label they're signed to or how many records they sell.

No, of course not, but how can someone be comfortable with a man calling out the hip-hop scene when he's label-mates with some of the most commercial, sold-out members? Obviously he's calling everybody still putting albums out because nowhere in the album did he specify. Oh, and please.. Kanye's on the album. If that doesn't raise an eyebrow, I'm pretty much beating a dead horse.

[tiedye]

Originally Posted by Goodfellow

Well I'm not gunna get into a big winded response with you, I wasn't posting up this album trying to say "OMG look at this album it's sooooo much better than all the classic albums in hiphop in the last 10 years" I was merely puttin it out there, because it's a solid album.

If you look at actual rap "skill" Nas blows the doors off beastie boys. Sure I will always love beastie boys, but they have very simple structure and rhyming.

I make beats and rap everyday, I know how long it takes to make beats that good and to rap abstract with mostly multi word rhymes. That's why I appreciate the album, I don't really care how "commercial" it is.

I was just putting it out because I don't agree that it's a solid album, and any good debate uses well-known reference points. As for actual rap skill, if I were to start an arguement about that, I'd be shooting my mouth off about something I can't personally do, so I won't. I'll just say his skills don't appeal to me. Although I will say that if he's not breaking grounds, he's got nothing on the classics.

I'm glad you're making beats and I hope you put out something that turns heads, seriously. I just hope you don't contradict yourself in your music like you just did. You stated in your original post that most people on here like "commercial bs" and that this was not that, now you're saying you don't care about whether it's commercial or not.

Anyways, enjoy your music because after all, it's your music, right? I'll never criticise anyone for their taste in music, but I'll gladly make my personal taste vocal (or visible in this case).

[Goodfellow]

Originally Posted by tiedye

I was just putting it out because I don't agree that it's a solid album, and any good debate uses well-known reference points. As for actual rap skill, if I were to start an arguement about that, I'd be shooting my mouth off about something I can't personally do, so I won't. I'll just say his skills don't appeal to me. Although I will say that if he's not breaking grounds, he's got nothing on the classics.

I'm glad you're making beats and I hope you put out something that turns heads, seriously. I just hope you don't contradict yourself in your music like you just did. You stated in your original post that most people on here like "commercial bs" and that this was not that, now you're saying you don't care about whether it's commercial or not.

Anyways, enjoy your music because after all, it's your music, right? I'll never criticise anyone for their taste in music, but I'll gladly make my personal taste vocal (or visible in this case).

I maybe shouldn't have said commercial, what I meant was like cookie cutter type albums where you have to "talk about certain things" over certain beats kinda albums.

If you don't think it's a solid album, that's fine. To each their own. I could really care less who likes what, and I'm sure you're the same way.

I just got the unreleased 07 Wu tang album.. it's pretty good, very real. The nas will probably get more plays outta me though, maybe I just like more "hype" beats. Wu tends to be very "1-2-3-4" beats. Neither is wrong or right, it's just a style.

[Bevvy Swift]

Originally Posted by Wood

I don't measure their "realness" by what label they're signed to or how many records they sell.

once again, there you have it.

[tiedye]

Originally Posted by Goodfellow

I maybe shouldn't have said commercial, what I meant was like cookie cutter type albums where you have to "talk about certain things" over certain beats kinda albums.

Then yeah, I see exactly what you mean. It was definately different from a significant majority of what's coming out these days. Everyone always tells me with my taste in music, especially the classic rock and folk music... but what I always tell them is that I'd just be happy to be around for the early days of hip-hop, even though it's not my preferred style by any means - I just have a ridiculous amount of respect for the whole movement in itself. It's a shame I can't look on today's hip-hop and feel the same way.

If you don't think it's a solid album, that's fine. To each their own. I could really care less who likes what, and I'm sure you're the same way.

Yeah man, we're on the exact same page. Like I said, I'll never criticize someone's taste.. sure I'll make the odd trance joke or break someone's balls for listening to Abba but in the end it's all in good fun. I'd expect the same from them for throwing on an Elton John or Elvis Costello record, but it doesn't mean I really think anything of it, nor should they.

[miss.myra]

Originally Posted by tiedye

Well.. I think the album's crap, personally. I also think it's a completely commercial release. Just because he's calling out pseudo-purists and saying he doesn't like the direction hip-hop is going doesn't mean he isn't making a buck or two while being backed my a major label. DefJam Records is about as commercial as it gets these days; their past, in my opinion, does not credit the present. I mean, look at the artists they have signed. Everyone from LL Cool J to Redman & Method Man, if I'm not mistaken, and please... Russell Simmons' history is notorious.

The statement is meant to be hostile and egg people on; I get it. I just don't think he is really looking at the natural progression of hip-hop. Since artists like the Wu-Tang Clan emerged, it was clear that the hip-hop community had moved their focus from legitimate art to a more profitable market, which inevitably would help them improve their economic standings. The majority of the target market obviously agrees.

DJs/MCs that have been around since the beginning of DefJam and the whole late 80s New York scene (Run-DMC, The Beastie Boys, Afrika Bambaata, etc) are hardly around anymore and they're about as real as hip-hop gets.

Anyways, that's my 3 minute stoned rant. Your thoughts?

*awaits the inevitable reeming from the hip-hoppers*

edit: Oh, and for the record, I'm into hip-hop acts like Abstract Rude, People Under the Stairs, Run-DMC, The Beastie Boys, and KRS-One.. stuff like that. So that might cast light on my opinion.

I don't think that NAS is saying that he doesn't like the direction hip hop is going in these days is because people are making money out of it, it's because nobody has anything good to say, people have to trump up an image and beef with other artists to sell records now and I do NOT think that wu tang created that movement in commercial rap at all. Commercial hip hop music that comes out these days is pretty uninspired, and I think that although wu tang was an influence on a lot of the artists out, they should not be at fault. KRS inspired a lot of those artists too, and nobody is blaming him for the chain reaction that has created shitty commercial rap.

Eesh, this thread was old, but had to say that.