The age of cynicism...

[Senior]

Originally Posted by Revolver

the world is full of cynics,the world of full of optimists. its up TO YOU to determine wich frequencey your brain taps into.

that's basically my outlook. a great book for putting this to a World view is "The European Dream" by Jeremy Rifkin

The European Dream: How Europe's ... - Google Book Search

[esoter1c]

[Senior]

Originally Posted by esoter1c

Hey Ho!!!!!

[djmarkpaul]

Originally Posted by Revolver

anyway mark you see what you project.

Ofcourse...but where's the correlation?

Saying I see what I project is fine...but your carte blanche statement of I see what I project doesn't solve anything.

Should I just ignore the cyncism and learn to love the bomb?

I'm sorry but this is exactly the problem as I see it now John.

In this case, you haven't even attempted to link how the cynicism of an individual (think of dealing with someone really high on their ego that just mocks anyone that disagrees with them and just contantly makes a joke out of the issue in question) that is unwilling to see things as someone they disagree with, simply because they don't like that person for whatever given reason.


Do you agree with this brand of self inflated cynicism yourself?

A yes or no will do if you don't want to really get into it.

Originally Posted by Revolver

anyway snap out of your holy then thou,im so tortured and misdunderstood by the world that i must be a genious on a higher level of thinking thing.

Snap out of your preconception that I have a holier than thou attitude, because I don't. I welcome people to proove me wrong, the self inflated cynic doesn't.

I do however, think this is a subject of deep concern for me and most people on this board are an example of what I'm suggesting when they slam me instead of my arguement.

Originally Posted by Revolver

basically you say,in that one bit there, that if we dont get your way of thinking then we have forgotten how to dream.

Stop making this about me and stick to this as a study of human behavior. This is alot bigger than me, and I don't like turning into a subject that is about my psyche...although ofcourse I am the brush to this palette, see beyond it. Stop shooting the messenger and you will better understand the message.

What I meant with that comment was, that the specific type of cynical attitude that laughs in the face of what we should all be concerned of as global citizens, is a demoralized attitude that I feel has lost touch with the innocence we all experience in youth. When I say forgotten how to dream...I'm not talking literally either, I meant that in more of a poetic sense.

Originally Posted by Revolver

fuck off with that shit. everyone has their own way of thinking. the idea is to share ideas and exchange with them not completely dominate and instruct them how to think

Though this is what you're doing right now.

[djmarkpaul]

Originally Posted by ebbomega

^^ And that explains the reactions to this thread perfectly

It does...an unwillingness to respect those we disagree with, thanks for the paradox.

[djmarkpaul]

Originally Posted by Senior

way to start that trend! and you sound way preachy/pseudo intellectual.

coming here to just shoot the messenger huh Senior?


I almost expected more from you.

/cynicsm

[ebbomega]

Originally Posted by djmarkpaul

Again sort of my point...the cynical attitude suggests that human nature is inherently flawed. I don't buy that arguement because it's not very self empowering.

The strive to overcome humanity's limitations are very self-empowering to me. Yes, society is fucked up. What can I do to change it? Be better than it.

I wish I could believe the opposite, that humanity is not inherently flawed, but too much has happened in my life and in the history of the world for me to consider that statement even has a shred of validity to it.

I don't like the idea of it being flawed so much though as limited. Limited by our own perceptions, upbringings and capabilities - that which we see, that which we have seen, and that which we have the potential of seeing. Overcoming those limitations is where stellar human beings come from - Ghandi, Mandela, Jesus, etc. That alone is enough to motivate me to be a better person.

I definetly can agree with the statement though, if we look at a more homely image of the family unit in say, the nuclear family era, compared to the single mom crisis we have today.

Though this realization of how bleak things are on a global level isn't met with an attitude that truly strive to change the path we're on, which is what I'm commenting about.

Again, I don't think this has changed so much as our perception has. People didn't want to look at the prostitutes, the lepers, or the lower class and their strifes - premarital pregnancy, domestic violence, substance abuse - so they didn't. Nowadays, there's too much evidence of these strifes that it's impossible to avoid it.

That being said, defeatism does suck. And I agree that it is a problem, but that's really something for you to figure out on your own. If you can't look past all the crap in the world to see the good things in life, nobody's going to ever be able to show you, you kind of need to figure that stuff out for yourself.

To me it's just that it seems too typical for our generation of young adults to just give a shit about their own game, caring about the world in a truly heartfelt manner has become passe, or if anything, a passing trend with breif intervals of action between the inaction (hurricane katrina, new orleans flood, etc) and many attitudes on this board are a relfection of this.

You're contradicting yourself though. Either I'm too concerned with the errs of the world and depressed because I can't do anything about it, or I'm too concerned with myself so I'm apathetic to all the problems of the world. But those are of course the extremes. The true key to life is to find a balance in which you both serve yourself and serve others.

There's a reason the Tao is called "the middle way"

[ebbomega]

Originally Posted by djmarkpaul

It does...an unwillingness to respect those we disagree with, thanks for the paradox.

I was more thinking, an unwillingness to waste our time on that which is truly meaningless.

Talking about life is like dancing about architecture.

(Apologies to Zappa)

[Revolver]

Originally Posted by djmarkpaul

Stop making this about me and stick to this as a study of human behavior. This is alot bigger than me, and I don't like turning into a subject that is about my psyche...although ofcourse I am the brush to this palette, see beyond it. Stop shooting the messenger and you will better understand the message.

LOL....ok hrmm...take a look at this :

Originally Posted by djmarkpaul

...maybe my folks didn't tell me enough jokes....

Originally Posted by djmarkpaul

, I would have to say, especially in the west, that cynicism (that is of a self inflated variety)

Originally Posted by djmarkpaul

Personally, I'd rather see romance and random acts of kindness take over this current obsession of cynicism we have...and I don't think people would have to laugh any less either.

Originally Posted by djmarkpaul

It may come off a bit preachy, and if you think so...I say to you, if you can't see where I'm going with this even just a little bit, you've forgotten how to dream. How truly sad for you...and yet, you still don't know even as you read this.

Originally Posted by djmarkpaul

I can't help but feel we are all miracles in progress, you already beat about 10 million sperm just to get here...how much more proof do you need?

Originally Posted by djmarkpaul

As I see it

Originally Posted by djmarkpaul

As I see it, humour is too often a mask people wear not to confront an emotional imbalance they have. In this case, the imbalance just seems to be maturity, which is what's lacking and has little to do with age. It's funny (in a cynical sort of way) how people seem to do a great deal of unlearning there sense of humour as they were when they were a child.
time for my day nap.

look at all of those:

me
the way i see it.
i think
i feel
I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I

the entire scope of this thread is based on your outlook and how we are chumps cuase we dont subscribe. thats what its about.

some people challenge it and have made some remarks in jest to you and you come out with viscious insults rather then a dialog.

you are simply THE BEST person to have a dialog with i have ever met in all of my worldy travels and all of the thousands of differnt personalites ive dealt with over my years in sales...

its not like what im saying is anything new. ive said this too you many times in person over the years.

yes, some of what you say has merrit and i understand where you are comming from. but it is the way you go about it all.....

[djmarkpaul]

Originally Posted by Senior

and just for the record I don't at all agree with this "everyone is a cynic emo shit." there is so much amazing stuff going on right now that I'm truly excited about and so are many others. my life is far from being ruled by cynics.

Your reading into what I'm saying too much and extracting your own meaning...I never said everyone is a cynic emo shit...I do think that self inflated cynicism is far too rampant however....either you agree or disagree. Tell me how, or don't, but stop trying to make this about me.

[djmarkpaul]

Originally Posted by dabbler

won't back up what in person? it's not that what you said has no merit, it's that you come across as insane. I've told you that 'in person' many times. As nice as you are 'in person' you are still pretty crazy, and I doubt that you would deny that, am I right?

Get over yourself man, you've never called me insane in person, if you did, I'd call you on it, I'd make you proove it, or I'd get you to shut your mouth if you were just talking shit.

The problem is, you don't want to look at me through any other lens other than the one that views me as being 'crazy'.

So why am I crazy dabby...because I don't agree with you? Because I study fringe topics that scare or uncomfort most people??

That's hardly crazy man, and just goes to show your level of character.

Now then...either debate the topic at hand or stay out of this thread...it's tiring that a fair amount of people that I would say are guilty of the brand of cynicism, are using their view of me as a way out to be able to civilly debate this issue.

When my character is attacked naturally I will stand up for myself...but the last thing I want is for this thread to become about me.

[djmarkpaul]

Originally Posted by Senior

Mark, I have no problem with you as a person and I honestly doubt anyone on here really does but please son...


GET OFF THE

So do you agree or disagree that we live in an era where the youth and young adults are by comparison to other times more cynical?

What is wrong with my original post?

[yoko*]

Originally Posted by djmarkpaul

I bet you're one of those people that believes that they can't control who they love too huh?

Originally Posted by djmarkpaul

No...but it does pave a new path for the future...unless you're too cynical to think that's possible.

Considering that we are discussing ideas here, these are weak and unnecessary argumentative "strategies"

Originally Posted by djmarkpaul

Well honestly, it's odd you say this, but I 100% disagree. Attitude is everything, change the way you look at the world, and the world you look at changes. How ironic but blaming exterior phenomenon for one's own attitude in the end holds no ground with accountibility.

That's like telling someone that they are sad because they are frowning, and suggesting that they smile in order to achieve happiness.

I think you should really think about what "100%" disagreeing with the view that experiences may influence attitudes, implies. We are NOT always aware of nor capable of mastering our own attitudes. Influential experiences will shape them:

Could you actually argue that traumatized victims of violence for example, should just "change their atttidues" towards society and their victimizers, and that their personal trauma is a chosen attitude that they should be held accountable for? Our attitudes to some degree are chosen, but I think there are also external factors which shape them.

Cynicism is far too abstract a concept that I doubt it can be operationally defined. It thus fails to be an adequate or powerful explanation of social states. The direction in which you point your blaming finger covers far too much abstract territory. Your ideas in themselves, however well-meaning, won't effect any change if you can't concretely define the concepts you are addressing. You also do not consider whether your perception of a rise in cynicism is really grounded in reality or whether it is merely your own perception. Also, if a definition of cynicism can be formulated and it's rise can be demonstrated, there is no way for you to test its relation to the state of society, especailly if this abstract concept of cynicism, can't be measured.

How would you know whether cynicism is merely a symptom, or a cause? To imply that it is a cause suggests that there is a causal link between attitudes and social states, where a negative attitude is causing a "negative state". But that theory entirely ignores the fact that it may go both ways, or in the reverse direction - that a cynical attitdue is brought about by a social state which provokes cynicism.

The problem with the notion of "social improvement" is that it's subjective. Everyone has their own ideas of how society is and how it should be changed. Others will see problems in others areas, and would propose other solutions - but hopefully not something as abstract as a "War on Cynicism".

[yoko*]

Originally Posted by djmarkpaul

I do however, think this is a subject of deep concern for me and most people on this board are an example of what I'm suggesting when they slam me instead of my arguement.

Stop making this about me and stick to this as a study of human behavior. This is alot bigger than me, and I don't like turning into a subject that is about my psyche...although ofcourse I am the brush to this palette, see beyond it. Stop shooting the messenger and you will better understand the message.

Oh, the hypocrisy.

Originally Posted by djmarkpaul

I bet you're one of those people that believes that they can't control who they love too huh?

Originally Posted by djmarkpaul

Originally Posted by djmarkpaul
No...but it does pave a new path for the future...unless you're too cynical to think that's possible.

[djmarkpaul]

Originally Posted by Revolver

WORD!!!! see mark its all in what you project.

-------

if your nothing but a cynical bastard who wallows in weed smoke and ferments in your own stink while you watch nothing but illuminati and conspiracy docs then thats all your wolrd will be.

but if your out adding good energy out into the logos and into and off of other people then the logos will return that energy back too you.

it sounds wishy washy and new agey but it really seems to be that way.

the world is full of cynics,the world of full of optimists. its up TO YOU to determine wich frequencey your brain taps into.

You're still making this about me...This is supposed to be an overview about the society at large. Moving from one point of being to another.

Obviously you attract what's predominantly on your mind. Thing is, I see the type of cyncism I described rampant on this board...so should I sit idlely and not mention a thing simply because I'm rocking the boat?

I dont buy that...there needs to be a sense of balance. We need to be able to talk about what's right AND what's wrong with the world without stepping on each others toes simply because we disagree.


I often enough respect your opinion John, but I do feel you bolster this type of cynicism yourself far too often. Perhaps if you were less cynical yourself, you may see that the original post culminates with the point that I'd like to see romance and a civil approach to those we disagree with to replace this cynicism.

So am I being negative by attempting to do that?

[Revolver]

Originally Posted by djmarkpaul

I often enough respect your opinion John, but I do feel you bolster this type of cynicism yourself far too often. Perhaps if you were less cynical yourself, you may see that the original post culminates with the point that I'd like to see romance and a civil approach to those we disagree with to replace this cynicism.

word.

but BAH...

im at peace with mine,and others, cynicism

you would enjoy life alot more if you did the same.

[djmarkpaul]

Originally Posted by Revolver

look at all of those:

me
the way i see it.
i think
i feel
I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I

Maybe I used the word I too much in the original post...but certainly the point that was being made was still made...and people chose rather to focus on my character rather then the point at hand.


People could have just agreed or disagreed...but instead, the cynicism flourished from the get go.

Fact still remains, as an individual, these are my views....if I were to say them without the use of I...I may have sentence fragments, or they might come off like even more of a decree of gospel ...and yet still I'm accused as being preachy!

*cynical laughter*

Put yourself in my shoes for a second.

If you attack my character, I will stand up for myself....wouldn't you?

Maybe I put too much focus on this from my individual perspective...but the ironic thing was I did that out of a sense of respect that we all see the world differently.

Originally Posted by Revolver

the entire scope of this thread is based on your outlook and how we are chumps cuase we dont subscribe. thats what its about.

Hardly...I don't think people are chumps...I see them as miracles in progress...I guess you just wanted to view what I wrote in a negative light rather than seeing the merit in what was written.

Originally Posted by Revolver

some people challenge it and have made some remarks in jest to you and you come out with viscious insults rather then a dialog.

Hate to call this bullshit John....but I really don't see that at all. Feel free to believe it, but the proof's in the pudding. I always engage in debate with someone that is willing to post more than one line to mock/make fun, and I will do it tastefully as long as respect is prevalent.

Originally Posted by Revolver

you are simply THE BEST person to have a dialog with i have ever met in all of my worldy travels and all of the thousands of differnt personalites ive dealt with over my years in sales...

its not like what im saying is anything new. ive said this too you many times in person over the years.

yes, some of what you say has merrit and i understand where you are comming from. but it is the way you go about it all.....

So I say I too much...and that means that anyone who may be a subject of this cynicism I mentioned should just hurl insults at me because it's how I got used to the english language?

I've got a better idea...believe whatever you want...but if you really want to proove your point, take my original post, and rewrite it without the use of I....go on, you'll see it will take you 3 times longer to write...and I'm not about to do that because people want this to be a focus of someone's ego rather than our collective psyche.

[tiedye]

Hey.. I saw a Dr Strangelove reference in there. Neat.

[djmarkpaul]

Originally Posted by yoko*

Considering that we are discussing ideas here, these are weak and unnecessary argumentative "strategies".

They aren't weak or unnecessary...but if it helped proove my point and discouraged yours I can see why you'd think that way.

Originally Posted by yoko*

That's like telling someone that they are sad because they are frowning, and suggesting that they smile in order to achieve happiness.

What are you going on about?

Originally Posted by yoko*

I think you should really think about what "100%" disagreeing with the view that experiences may influence attitudes, implies. We are NOT always aware of nor capable of mastering our own attitudes. Influential experiences will shape them:

K lets run with this...

Originally Posted by yoko*

Could you actually argue that traumatized victims of violence for example, should just "change their atttidues" towards society and their victimizers, and that their personal trauma is a chosen attitude that they should be held accountable for? Our attitudes to some degree are chosen, but I think there are also external factors which shape them.

Good point...though if we are to mature as a society, we have to realize that we are creators of our reality. Being a victim is just one version of that reality, one which you may claim to be a victim of circumstance, but even then the struggle is internal.

When a traumatizing event occurs, you either sink or swim. You can allow a negative event to consume you or you can empower yourself by not letting what happened to you happen again (this may seem cold cause I would imagine its really hard not to feel like a victim, if say, you're raped, but the only people that get over it are the ones willing to look beyond that scope).

Originally Posted by yoko*

Cynicism is far too abstract a concept that I doubt it can be operationally defined.

This is exactly why I specified it to be a brand of cyncism, which is of the self inflated variety.

Originally Posted by yoko*

It thus fails to be an adequate or powerful explanation of social states. The direction in which you point your blaming finger covers far too much abstract territory. Your ideas in themselves, however well-meaning, won't effect any change if you can't concretely define the concepts you are addressing.

But I have, though eloboration may be necessary to better get the point across.

Originally Posted by yoko*

You also do not consider whether your perception of a rise in cynicism is really grounded in reality or whether it is merely your own perception.

Actually my first line is a disclaimer of this, but nice try. However, it may be my fault still for not clarifying enough. To be fair, there is no way to measure this on a statistical viewpoint as it is now for this thread, it's obviously a point of reference based on perception...or atleast I thought it was.

As such, I welcome any personal views others may have on this...I wanted to know if I'm alone in this or if others feel that cynicism is on the rampage, if you will (that's not to say there aren't alot of good aspects in our collective psyche that are going alongside this progression).

Originally Posted by yoko*

Also, if a definition of cynicism can be formulated and it's rise can be demonstrated, there is no way for you to test its relation to the state of society, especailly if this abstract concept of cynicism, can't be measured.

Actually there is a way to test it, it's called observing your reality and considering the psyche of those around you, wheather they are loved ones, the youth, co-workers, whatever, it can be done. Then look at the bigger picture, look at the values that generations have had over the decades, the impressions the certain fashions have imprinted on the psyche of humanity, do it until our current age.



You can measure it in a historical sense as just mentioned, and in your own life and your own experiences, and to me that is valid...experience afterall is the primary data for being.

If enough people are concerned and make dialogue of this, rather than just making oneliner jokes to serious subjects, or just disway any type of conversation to occur on harsher global issues, I feel it will tremendously affect our society for the better.

Originally Posted by yoko*

How would you know whether cynicism is merely a symptom, or a cause? To imply that it is a cause suggests that there is a causal link between attitudes and social states, where a negative attitude is causing a "negative state". But that theory entirely ignores the fact that it may go both ways, or in the reverse direction - that a cynical attitdue is brought about by a social state which provokes cynicism.

Well it's funny you attempt to invalidate my point when I actually agree, yes...it's both....and that's what makes it so abstract.

If we see it as a symptom, there is a lack of accountability to move from the hardships that we have collectively as a society and dealing with it maturily. Instead I find too many would rather just love the bomb and laugh at our flawed nature, accepting these flaws instead of improving on them...not a very empowering approach, so I challenge it.

That said, it's still a symptom of shovelling the hardships of our ancestors that lead us to the here and now...a means to cope if you will. I see it as primarily selfish means to cope with a nature that is flawed, but doesnt have to be.

So if we're looking towards the past, it's more a symptom, and if we're looking more into the future, it's more of a cause.

We have to know where we were to know where we are going...I feel there is alot more to our conciousness to experience if we just try to mature collectively and end this obsession in cynicism (I think of some pop music, tv pundits, and fashion mags to be a few working examples).

Originally Posted by yoko*

The problem with the notion of "social improvement" is that it's subjective. Everyone has their own ideas of how society is and how it should be changed. Others will see problems in others areas, and would propose other solutions - but hopefully not something as abstract as a "War on Cynicism".

I don't want a war on cynicism....I don't think cyncism should end, and in many ways, maybe we need to be more cynical.

That said, self indulgent cynicism would be much better off for just about everyone if replaced with a respect for romance and the ability to agree to disagree. Do you agree?

[djmarkpaul]

Originally Posted by yoko*

Oh, the hypocrisy.

Would you sit idlely when you're being insulted?

[djmarkpaul]

Originally Posted by ebbomega

The strive to overcome humanity's limitations are very self-empowering to me. Yes, society is fucked up. What can I do to change it? Be better than it.

Kind of the whole point of this thread. As I was saying though, accepting human nature as being inherently flawed, and becoming better than it seem a little defeatist. Why not try to do both?

Atleast to me there is more of a sense of balance that way, just trying to better yourself seems a little selfish...but sometimes perhaps we need to be a little selfish, or atleast consider our position before others'.

Originally Posted by ebbomega

I wish I could believe the opposite, that humanity is not inherently flawed, but too much has happened in my life and in the history of the world for me to consider that statement even has a shred of validity to it.

I feel ya on that...but in the same time, just settling that we are flawed doesn't embrace the change that seems would be for the best. Many scoff and call it idealism, I call it standing up for what you believe in...if you're going to cater your message for your audience instead of speak from the heart, or say, give up on that belief because it seems to idealistic and instead just accept the corruption, to me, it's like giving up on your dreams.

Originally Posted by ebbomega

I don't like the idea of it being flawed so much though as limited. Limited by our own perceptions, upbringings and capabilities - that which we see, that which we have seen, and that which we have the potential of seeing. Overcoming those limitations is where stellar human beings come from - Ghandi, Mandela, Jesus, etc. That alone is enough to motivate me to be a better person.

I agree. To bring it back to context, would you consider any of those great human beings to be of a cynical variety?

Originally Posted by ebbomega

Again, I don't think this has changed so much as our perception has. People didn't want to look at the prostitutes, the lepers, or the lower class and their strifes - premarital pregnancy, domestic violence, substance abuse - so they didn't. Nowadays, there's too much evidence of these strifes that it's impossible to avoid it.

You raise an interesting point. When we change our perception though...does that not in turn change our reality?

Originally Posted by ebbomega

That being said, defeatism does suck. And I agree that it is a problem, but that's really something for you to figure out on your own. If you can't look past all the crap in the world to see the good things in life, nobody's going to ever be able to show you, you kind of need to figure that stuff out for yourself.

Consider that maybe because we accept this all too commonly as something we have to face alone, that we set up the atmosphere to loose touch of higher moral pursuits as a collective society and view them as idealism?

Though on a personal level, I agree, you need to be able to look past what's wrong so you can still hold true and respect the beauty we have in our life right in front of us, and it's foremost an individual pursuit.

Originally Posted by ebbomega

You're contradicting yourself though. Either I'm too concerned with the errs of the world and depressed because I can't do anything about it, or I'm too concerned with myself so I'm apathetic to all the problems of the world. But those are of course the extremes. The true key to life is to find a balance in which you both serve yourself and serve others.

There's a reason the Tao is called "the middle way"

You made up that contradiction yourself. I don't think being concerned about the errs of the world should make one depressed by default, quite the opposite!

Im all for finding a balance man...sincerely.

[-evil-duerr-]

the sky is falling!

[rawb]

STILL SUCKS o

[djmarkpaul]

^You will make an awesome bitter old man, but you will be lonely and pathetic in your last days.

[yoko*]

Originally Posted by djmarkpaul

Would you sit idlely when you're being insulted?

OH, THE HYPOCRISY PART 2

Why call someone out on straying from the argument and making personal attacks when you're doing the same yourself? And no, your own personal attacks towards me did not prove any point except that it supported my hunch that your argumentative style is weak.

The fact that you've made personal attacks and have also sent me bad karma** leads me to wonder whether you're really here to disucss a subject, or whether you're just here to try to impose your stubborn views upon others while rejecting any ideas that disprove or counter your own.

To summarize,

Your arguments fail in that they deal with entirely abstract and subjective concepts. Abstract concepts such as 'cynicism' cannot be objectively identified within a population for many reasons.

• Firstly, because its identification depends on the one who is doing the identifying, the personal meanings that the identifier attaches to the concept will influence what the identifier deems "cynical".

• Secondly, the dictionary definition of cynicism is in itself broad and abtract, in that it cannot be easily separated from other similar concepts such as pessimism or depression.

• Lastly, it's one thing to distinguish a table from a chair, but a concept such as "cynicism" is a very abstract one which is in itself contextually created. Not all languages have an equivalent word for "cynicism". What I may perceive as cynical behaviour may be interpreted differently elsewhere.

Since you fail to operationally define what cynicism is and how it can be identified or even distingushed and separated from other abstract concepts, the majority of your post dedicated to some abstract ideas about cynicism, especially those which address its measurement, are nullified. You can't measure what you can't define.

VV**