Arguments about Morals/Ethics/Religion/Food

[*spacecase*]

So the thread about PETA's new add got me thinking about this one...

Whenever people argue about shit like vegetarianism vs. meat eating or pro-life vs. pro choice, or christianity vs islam etc... it's really pointless.

You can never, ever convince a die-hard-meat-eaters-are-evil-vegetarian that it's ok to eat meat. (not saying all vegetarians are like this.. quite the opposite... but there are some that are very keen on preaching )

You can never, ever convince a pro lifer that a woman should have the right to choose and abortion should be legal.

You probably can;t convince die-hard atheist to suddenly become religious.

You can;t change people's opinion about really personal issues such as religion and their personal ethics and morals.

That's not to say debate is wrong......

but after awhile, circular arguments are just annoying. Everyone has a right to believe what they want. yaay! freedom!!!!!

and for the record:
i'm pro-meat eating (but i agree we eat too much meat in our society)
pro choice
and anti organized religion.

BUT THATS MY RIGHT, DAMMIT!!!!! and no one can change those opinions.(tho many have tried)

[skittles_0307]

No one can CONVINCE someone of anything IF you truly believe in something..
Of course its a difficult disscussion and debate. I do believe even if you do not agree with someone elses choices, beliefs and whatnot, that you should always keep an open mind.
Its not appreciated when someone cuts down your beliefs, morals etc, so just be respectful, and learn about other things instead of being ignorant

[Sykonee]

Originally Posted by *spacecase*

and for the record:
i'm pro-meat eating (but i agree we eat too much meat in our society)
pro choice
and anti organized religion.

MARRY ME!!! :D

Seriously, though, I've found that in arguements like this, you actually can, and sometimes even do, end up changing the other's opinion. The thing is, however, they will rarely admit to it. Why? Because it will then disprove everything they've been debating for and to reverse their opinion will cause them to become a hippocrite, thus weakening their stance on any arguement.

Sometimes an individual will defend their stance so adamently, dispite being proven wrong, that they actually begin to believe it as fact; all just to save face.

[miss.myra]

I really don't mind discussing issues like those with other people, especially if we don't agree (if it's a rational discussion and not a heated argument)

Even though I may not agree with the person, a lot of the time I am able to gain perspective or learn new things about something- and maybe the person on the other side has a bit to gain from me, too.

[alia]

Originally Posted by miss.myra

I really don't mind discussing issues like those with other people, especially if we don't agree (if it's a rational discussion and not a heated argument)

Even though I may not agree with the person, a lot of the time I am able to gain perspective or learn new things about something- and maybe the person on the other side has a bit to gain from me, too.

same here, even better if they can break your model of the universe with an argument.. wich you can then incorperate into a new world view.. for the next time :)

besides its good to get your old ideas and beliefs out of the dusty backroom and into the sunlight occasionally to see if they are still valid for you.

one of the most attractive things in someone else is (in my opinion) the ability to discuss an opinion rationally.. and if need be.. agree to disagree, without any negative feelings..

if you attack my idea you are not attacking me. its just an idea.

A.

[theCookee]

my opinion in most cases, i figure, whats the use?
such debating just tires me, and makes me irritable.
blech =P
Id rather save my breath to say dirty things to my lover, which would lead to a "omfg I just busted my 3rd nut" fuck.
Ill tell ya, its gets you much further in the pursuit of Happiness =)

[stringbeans]

good post! :D

after reading through pages of that PETA thread the argument really went no where. you're right, it just turned into a circular argument with the same facts/opinions being presented over and over.

and just for the record, im pro meat, pro choice, and anti organized religion as well

[mugsy]

i applaud.
i enjoy a good debate, but when similar points are made and my character is attacked i tend to get a little bit upset and i want to say mean mean things.
its wonderful for people to have varying opinions and views, its what makes my passion (art) so amazing, you can love peice while the rest of the world hates it.
agreeing to disagree is a great thing too, i dislike it when people dont allow it to happen, and continue to push there ideas. its rad to have ideas, but sometimes when the debate is over\agreement to disagree has been made, i think the ideas should be put on hold for later discussions.

anywho, im pro-choice when it comes to most every aspect of life - as in everyone has the right to opinion\idea\thought. i think religion and faith can be a wonderful thing in the hands of the right person, that women have the right to make their own decisions when it comes to their body as do men, and everyone has the right to their own menu choices, wether it be a vegan diet or a mostly meat diet.

[e_BoY]

Originally Posted by miss.myra

I really don't mind discussing issues like those with other people, especially if we don't agree (if it's a rational discussion and not a heated argument)

Even though I may not agree with the person, a lot of the time I am able to gain perspective or learn new things about something- and maybe the person on the other side has a bit to gain from me, too.

roger that

[mapleleaf4ever]

I try to avoid getting into arguments with people about Religion and that whole Abortion Issue. The only thing I actually enjoy is a good Political debate. Other than that I sum my opinion of arguments with this quote:

"I may not agree with what you say, but I will fight to the death your right to say it."
- Voltaire

P.S. I might have screwed it up a bit... but I agree with it.

[rawb]

i love getting oppinions of people who have opposing viewpoints than i do, as we can breifly look at the world from another perspective. you will either strengthen your position or you may gain new insight that can help you form some new ideas. if you fear or dislike people discussing with you your moral views you either don't know how to walk away from a conversation, or you have a closed mind.

ps: you're all stereotypical left wing youth. ditch the hippy and add some spice to your life.

[*spacecase*]

Originally Posted by rawb

i love getting oppinions of people who have opposing viewpoints than i do, as we can breifly look at the world from another perspective. you will either strengthen your position or you may gain new insight that can help you form some new ideas. if you fear or dislike people discussing with you your moral views you either don't know how to walk away from a conversation, or you have a closed mind.

ps: you're all stereotypical left wing youth. ditch the hippy and add some spice to your life.

I have a very open mind.

I just don;t enjoy debates that go nowhere.(the abortion debate especially) Everyone has a right to an opinion, but after you have been disagreeing for stupidly long periods of time - let it go. agree to disagree.

I don;t fear discussing my moral views with other people, but after a certian point neither of you is going to learn anything else.

my parents were hippies. I've grown up being "left wing" (but i didn;t realize that as a little kid) .... when i look at the alternative to that, i have to say i prefer where i stand.

the funny thing is, most people are left wing when they are young, but then they turn to the right-wing as they get older. (Thats why so many ex-hippies are now business people)

i look at the friends i have that are stereotypical Right wing youth - they seem like the ones that need spice added to their lives.
(also, i live in calgary....... there's not too many left wing youths here... its not the majority by any means. i;'m in the land of rednecks. )

[robyn]

Originally Posted by *spacecase*

I have a very open mind.

How's being anti-organized religion being open minded?

ps: He's right, you're a total stereo-type. Sometimes people who get sucked too far into the left wing are just as close minded and irritating as those who are too far into the right.

[mapleleaf4ever]

The Grey Area is a nice place to be... not as many assholes here. :)

[*spacecase*]

Originally Posted by robyn

How's being anti-organized religion being open minded?

ps: He's right, you're a total stereo-type. Sometimes people who get sucked too far into the left wing are just as close minded and irritating as those who are too far into the right.

when religion is used as an excuse to cause a war, it bugs me. when religion is used as a sheild for hatred, it bugs me.
i didn;t say i didn;t like religious people. Lots of good friends of mine are christian or catholic. i just don;t like when people hide behind the bible (or the koran or whatever their book of choice is ) to spread homophibia or limit a woman;s right to choose.

i think religion and spirituality can be a wonderful force in someone's life. I think having God in one's life can be a positive force. does that mean i have to agree with any one religion ? no.

and i apologize if i am annoying and "stereotypical". but oh well. i feel like expressing myself.

(but if i was a sterotype.... i'd be wearing lots of hemp, have dreads, smoke lots of weed, be a vegan, listen to college radio 24/7, vote for the communist or green party and go to art college. thats the obvious left wing stereotype, isn;t it? shrug.. i dunno)

[robyn]

Originally Posted by *spacecase*

and i apologize if i am annoying and "stereotypical". but oh well. i feel like expressing myself.

Sorry, it's just that the stereotype you're coming accross as is so played out and boring. Is it really something different in Calgary? Maybe the west coast has spoiled me.

[Joanne]

Originally Posted by *spacecase*

So the thread about PETA's new add got me thinking about this one...

Whenever people argue about shit like vegetarianism vs. meat eating or pro-life vs. pro choice, or christianity vs islam etc... it's really pointless.

You can never, ever convince a die-hard-meat-eaters-are-evil-vegetarian that it's ok to eat meat. (not saying all vegetarians are like this.. quite the opposite... but there are some that are very keen on preaching )

You can never, ever convince a pro lifer that a woman should have the right to choose and abortion should be legal.

You probably can;t convince die-hard atheist to suddenly become religious.

You can;t change people's opinion about really personal issues such as religion and their personal ethics and morals.

That's not to say debate is wrong......

but after awhile, circular arguments are just annoying. Everyone has a right to believe what they want. yaay! freedom!!!!!

and for the record:
i'm pro-meat eating (but i agree we eat too much meat in our society)
pro choice
and anti organized religion.

BUT THATS MY RIGHT, DAMMIT!!!!! and no one can change those opinions.(tho many have tried)

I have debates all the time about abortion, vegetarianism, religion, etc. it does not mean that I fully agree with all the points that I present, but I feel a lot of them are worth bringing up. and it sure as hell does not mean that I am trying to convert anyone. I think debates are not necessarily there for people to change people's opinions, but to give evidence as to how you arrive to a certain justification or point. if you can't give justification to your point but the other person gives a bunch of justified points against your view, that to ME is not preaching. going up to your door and not leaving until they convince you to convert your beliefs, to ME is preaching.

I don't recall anyone from the PETA ad thread screaming "bloody hell, convert to vegetarianism!". sounds to me like you just don't know the difference between someone who's simply arguing points and a die-hard preacher.

circular argument or not, I still find I enjoy hearing other points from both sides because it either helps me see a different point of view I've never seen before or makes my personal beliefs only stronger. I also find circular arguments really help me realize how unintuitive many things are in life.

but you're right about circular arguments being annoying sometimes though. you can never really convince a person who can't handle a good debate that you're simply giving out points and not preaching.

so for the love of God, IT'S MY FUCKING RIGHT TO GIVE MY POINTS AND NOT BE CALLED A FUCKING PREACHER WHO'S TRYING TO CHANGE YOUR MIND!

--Joanne :P

[Joanne]

Originally Posted by *spacecase*

when religion is used as an excuse to cause a war, it bugs me. when religion is used as a sheild for hatred, it bugs me.
i didn;t say i didn;t like religious people. Lots of good friends of mine are christian or catholic. i just don;t like when people hide behind the bible (or the koran or whatever their book of choice is ) to spread homophibia or limit a woman;s right to choose.

i think religion and spirituality can be a wonderful force in someone's life. I think having God in one's life can be a positive force. does that mean i have to agree with any one religion ? no.

you don't have to agree with a religion to be open-minded. but I would not necessarily be quick to label someone open-minded just because they can like religious people or be friends with them.

--Joanne :P

[Sariel]

What pisses me off is that a lot of people believe that their views on religion, abortion, and vegetarianism vs meat-eating is that most people honestly think their way is the "Only right way to live life" and if you disagree with them, you are going to burn in hell or some other nasty fate... And try to force their opinions on others.

No one has the right to force someone else to their point of view... I once got into a discussion in the middle of the street downtown (Victoria) with a woman about religion.

She told me that if I did not believe in God, I was going to burn in hell.
So I asked her if she believed that God granted man free will. She said "Yes"

So I asked what kind of "God" would grant humans free will, but if they exersised it to not believe in him, he was going to kick their ass to eternal torment.

Not exactly what I would call a kind, loving God who really wants his subjects to have free will...

She never really did come up with an answer... she just went off on a different vein for a while.

Organized religions are the most obvious for trying to make others believe as they do, but I have encountered people that tried to force all sorts of their beliefs on me..

I think Chris Rock said it best in Dogma - It's better to have idea's instead of beliefs. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is much harder to do. People kill for beliefs, people die for beliefs.

Not too many people have died for an idea.