US troops in Fallujah

[CodaDrummer]

Originally Posted by tvmann

Big thing on the news today was a US marine shooting dead an unarmed wounded and down Iraqi guy in a mosque. Someone got it on video and it was released to the news, so they are investigating.

That must go on all the time but it never gets reported.

Someone here had a link to a similar incident several months ago during the first part of the war, showing video of US guys shooting an unarmed Iraqi soldier who was wounded and surrendering. Then afterwards they bragged about it. Does anyone still have that video or the link? It should be brought to the attention of the media, I never saw anything on the news about that incident.

Whoa! I saw that today at work, during lunch.

A bunch of soldiers storm a large room and two unarmed and wounded men are propped up against the wall.

"Look, he isn't dead, he is faking..."

They edited it so the picture stopped moving but you could still hear the sound. Gun shots ring out.

"Now he's dead!"

These guys were unarmed and in need of medical attention... but what the fuck do these guys care, the whole city is in need of medical attention. Inhumane pricks.

[miss.myra]

The fact that Margaret Hassan, an aid worker was SHOT in the head by her captors was also gut wrenching to read about.

In this war, I feel like I'm finally at a point where I've stepped back from taking sides, and I'm just horrified by the things I see each side doing- all for their cause.

The sickest part to me, is how desensitized the public has become to everything. If we put religion, politics, everything like that aside, we need to still feel something from people dying- whether it's someone who is injured and helpess being shot by a soldier, or some person getting beheaded by captors on film that is intended to be broadcasted to the world. We need to realize that each side is becoming desperate enough in fighting for their cause that they feel is right that they are taking these measures- but at the same time, it's happening so much that so many people I know just don't even react to that, and THAT bothers me.

[sNyx]

Originally Posted by ebbomega

If it's kill or be killed, I'd do it.

Hell yeah! So if it's kill or have "your fellow American people" killed. Does that make a difference? In the eyes of a "whole america" does not killing thousands in the 9/11 account for killing tens of thousands in another country.

ps; not directed to your ebbo -used your comment as a crutch

[ebbomega]

Originally Posted by sNyx™

Hell yeah! So if it's kill or have "your fellow American people" killed. Does that make a difference? In the eyes of a "whole america" does not killing thousands in the 9/11 account for killing tens of thousands in another country.

ps; not directed to your ebbo -used your comment as a crutch

Not taken to me.

I agree that the whole Kill-or-be-killed mentality in America is pretty funny.

Remember right after 9/11 when everybody was all gung-ho about war and stuff?

I remember someone saying that they wanted to walk up to all the protesters and punch them in the face until they did something about it to prove a point... I think my reaction was to report them to the analogy police... More like, howzabout I punch you in the face for 20 years, and then when you hit back I drop a bunch of bombs on you....

I don't condone America's presence in Iraq. Everybody's saying that it'd be irresponsible for America to pull out now. I think it's been irresponsible that they've let all this bullshit go on for well over a year now.... More people just dying... for what cause? Putting a solid government that's gonna collapse under the guerrillas the second that America pulls its troops out? Wait a minute. This sounds familiar. Vietnam anyone?

[jono]

A buddy of mine was talking about how sweet it would be if Fallujah made a stand like the Alamo.

Then they could make a movie about it and Americans could relate to it and everyone would be on the same page.

"And all the races sing do dodo do dododo do dodo do dododo!!!"

[Senior]

Originally Posted by Goat

Posts and news reportings like this piss me off. Not the fact a soldier blew someones brains out, but the huge ordeal they create about making war humane.

I don't agree with war period. Even hurting people, sometimes, bugs me. When war comes about though. You kill the son of a bitch before he/she kills you.

One more civilian dies in war, woop dee friggin doo. What's the count now? 10000+
I'm sure he got the easy way out compared to the thousands that have been bombed, pillaged, shot at, burned, and looted out of their homes.
Let the poor shit have his peace in death he couldn't have in life, don't make a media debacle out of it.

Blah.
Fuck.

Different estimes currently put the civilian death toll at 15,000 plus and up 100,000+ if you include combatants.

As far as your whole "woop dee friggin doo" attitude that's pretty disgusting. These are all real people with families and lives that are being torn from them. But hey I guess it's easy to be so calloused and spoilled when you live a rich western country.

If the US wants to start combating terrorism I think they need to take a long hard look at their role in the world and how they effect peeople. The US Governments has a long history of propping up brutal, undemocratic dictatorships around the world. The US and the EU for that matter are leading the globalization charge that has seen millions fall into poverty since the WTO was first implemented in 94'. I'm not saying that America or American people are all evil more the tallest flower theory. America is a super power and their actions will be closely scrutinized. If the US continues on their current path of crying about how everyone hates them for no reason and using the 9/11 attacks as justification for unlimitted war it will be their own down fall.

[ebbomega]

If the US wants to combat terrorism, they should stop funding it.

"Acts of terrorism occur every day. And, more often than not, it's at the hands of the United States."
- Amnesty International, back during the Clinton Administration.

Now, then. How long before this puppet government turns on us? It took about 2 administrations for Hussein to give America the shrug-off... what about these guys?

[decypher]

^^ Or maybe they can supply their puppet regime with money and weapons and get them to attack Iran. Oh wait that was 1980.

[Senior]

Originally Posted by decypher

^^ Or maybe they can supply their puppet regime with money and weapons and get them to attack Iran. Oh wait that was 1980.

I think they usually like to supply both sides with weapons if possible though.

[decypher]

Originally Posted by Senior

I think they usually like to supply both sides with weapons if possible though.

MORE MONEY!!!

[Goat]

As far as your whole "woop dee friggin doo" attitude that's pretty disgusting. These are all real people with families and lives that are being torn from them.

The war 'over there' isn't right. No war is ever right. And yes, it really sucks that man and the tens of thousands of other people lost their lives and homes. It's an incredibly sad story.
Here's the thing about life. People die all the time. People die horrendous sensless deaths all the time. Not because they deserve it, but because the worlds a tough bitter place outside of the G7.
People are outraged over his unfair death. Put that into perspective though. Look at the conflicts that have arisen in Nicorauga, Vietnam, Kosovo, Rhodesia, Sudan, the middle east, and eastern block countries. Look at the cases of famine and genocide in Russia and Africa, where religion and tribalism have led to the the slaughter of entire cultures, let alone the Aids epidemic wildfire going on. What'd humanity and good will do for them. We sent them a couple million dollars worth of food and more weopons to help them kill each other.
That wasn't one person dead, those were millions. That man took a bullet in the head. It just so happened to be caught on camera. The news will make a bigger deal out of it then it's worth and some soldier is going to find himself up a shit creek. It sucks big time.
What happened to him shouldn't have happened to anyone, period. Declaring killing an outrage during war is naive and ludicrous. One mans unfair death during a time of such extreme conflict shouldn't be such a surprise to people. You think war is humane? Grow the fuck up.

[ebbomega]

"You must spread some Karma around before giving it to Goat again."

[Senior]

Originally Posted by Goat

The war 'over there' isn't right. No war is ever right. And yes, it really sucks that man and the tens of thousands of other people lost their lives and homes. It's an incredibly sad story.

Exactly so why act like such an ass and trivialize their loss?

Originally Posted by Goat

Here's the thing about life. People die all the time. People die horrendous sensless deaths all the time. Not because they deserve it, but because the worlds a tough bitter place outside of the G7.

Are you trying to educate me on the world? Try again.

Originally Posted by Goat

People are outraged over his unfair death. Put that into perspective though. Look at the conflicts that have arisen in Nicorauga, Vietnam, Kosovo, Rhodesia, Sudan, the middle east, and eastern block countries. Look at the cases of famine and genocide in Russia and Africa, where religion and tribalism have led to the the slaughter of entire cultures, let alone the Aids epidemic wildfire going on. What'd humanity and good will do for them. We sent them a couple million dollars worth of food and more weopons to help them kill each other.

For 2 seconds please remember that these are real people you're talking about. Their country has been invaded and they are being killed. As we all know the Americans are not welcome there already and when they do things like this people get pissed off. As for Nicorauga you could ad Panama and Guatemala to the list of Central American countries that have been vicitmized by state sponsered terrorism at the hands of the US, does that make it any better they are at it again in Iraq? Vietnam is supposed to be another great reason that we shouldn't care what's happening in Iraq? WTF!

Originally Posted by Goat

That wasn't one person dead, those were millions. That man took a bullet in the head. It just so happened to be caught on camera. The news will make a bigger deal out of it then it's worth and some soldier is going to find himself up a shit creek. It sucks big time.

People relate better to what they can see, so yes a wounded person being ruthlessly executed will make waves. This is exactly the reason that photo's of the coffins coming home to the US, the wounded soldiers on both sides, and the civillian vicitms in Iraq are kept out of the media as much as possible by the Pentagon.

Originally Posted by Goat

What happened to him shouldn't have happened to anyone, period. Declaring killing an outrage during war is naive and ludicrous. One mans unfair death during a time of such extreme conflict shouldn't be such a surprise to people. You think war is humane? Grow the fuck up.

I think that every single person killed in that current conflict is an outrage. It's an unjust war being fought for all the wrong reasons and I'm not going to sit by and agree with it. By "grow the fuck up" do you mean become a desensitized little prick that could care less people are being murdered? No thanks.

[Psycho_Laughs]

it's war.
war has different rules. it's not the same as regular life. acts done during war time can be justified by the simple fact that it is war time. thats why soldiers are tried in a martial court not a civil court.

seriously, you're all gung ho about people dieing in iraq, and how the US are a bunch of pricks and blah blah blah.

what about places where people die more often at hands of their own people, where there is no war? sao paulo, or mexico city? people die of violent deaths every 2 hours in these cities. why don't i ever hear anybody talking about them?

suddenly dieing at the hands of a soldier is more tragic than dieing at the hands of some fuckwad on the street who wants your shoes. or being killed because your robber got pissed off you didn't have more than 10 bucks in your wallet.

of course people are desensitized. if you had to care about every tragic story happening out there, you'd never stop being outraged.

the best lesson you can learn from horrible things happening is appreciate the fact that you, and most of the people you interact with won't have to face conditions like that.

[Senior]

Originally Posted by Psycho_Laughs

it's war.
war has different rules. it's not the same as regular life. acts done during war time can be justified by the simple fact that it is war time. thats why soldiers are tried in a martial court not a civil court.

seriously, you're all gung ho about people dieing in iraq, and how the US are a bunch of pricks and blah blah blah.

what about places where people die more often at hands of their own people, where there is no war? sao paulo, or mexico city? people die of violent deaths every 2 hours in these cities. why don't i ever hear anybody talking about them?

suddenly dieing at the hands of a soldier is more tragic than dieing at the hands of some fuckwad on the street who wants your shoes. or being killed because your robber got pissed off you didn't have more than 10 bucks in your wallet.

of course people are desensitized. if you had to care about every tragic story happening out there, you'd never stop being outraged.

the best lesson you can learn from horrible things happening is appreciate the fact that you, and most of the people you interact with won't have to face conditions like that.

I don't see what you're getting at? Because I have a good life I should just be happy and not care about anything else?

[decypher]

Originally Posted by Psycho_Laughs

it's war.
war has different rules. it's not the same as regular life. acts done during war time can be justified by the simple fact that it is war time. thats why soldiers are tried in a martial court not a civil court.

The winners of the war put the losers on trial. So how are we to know everything that each side does?

Originally Posted by Psycho_Laughs

seriously, you're all gung ho about people dieing in iraq, and how the US are a bunch of pricks and blah blah blah.

what about places where people die more often at hands of their own people, where there is no war? sao paulo, or mexico city? people die of violent deaths every 2 hours in these cities. why don't i ever hear anybody talking about them?

suddenly dieing at the hands of a soldier is more tragic than dieing at the hands of some fuckwad on the street who wants your shoes. or being killed because your robber got pissed off you didn't have more than 10 bucks in your wallet.

That is a product of our society as a whole. You think people just go around killing people for stuff because they can't make money? You don't know the in depth implications of the surroundings and enviroment they grew up in. Think about the abudance of psychos in north america and what they do to people. Mutilation, Rape, Murder, its all twisted. The States can't even even fix their own problems at home.

So death at the hands of a desperate person, compared to death of a civilian by a regimented soldier, both are just as bad. In a way both have been indoctrinated in different ways. One is a victim of this so-called civilized society we live in, the other is a drone for the military who thinks he is freeing people by shooting at everything that moves. The reason we should care is that the government does not care about the freedom any group of people, in fact its just the oppisite. They US government is only concerned about controlling the world economically and politically. Squash any resistance, rape resources, and have a firm grip on leading the direction of this planet.

It seems as if you don't care if someone dies in your own backyard or across the planet, so what do you care about? Yeh, see the US has their own defination of freedom, and it involes everyone cooperating with their demands or suffer.

[Psycho_Laughs]

Originally Posted by Senior

I don't see what you're getting at? Because I have a good life I should just be happy and not care about anything else?

no, because you can see other people are suffering you should look at your life and be glad, and quit your bitching since you're not in the position they are in.
they have the right to complain. you should be glad you don't have to.

[Goat]

I think that every single person killed in that current conflict is an outrage.

Yes it's an outrage. And you know what, just like vietnam, nicorauga, and geneva people protested. People have had rallies, sent relief money food and weopons. They've written letters to the president, the news networks, and lobbyists. Pro war media showed brave soldiers fighting for freedom. Anti war media showed burn victims, mass graves, and public executions. And you know who kept on fighting, regardless, time after time? The government. You think any government is going to pull out because of a few nasty pictures of someones corpse? fuck no.
They don't give a shit what people think as long as taxes get paid and the industrial and aggricultural sectors continue on each and every morning.
No movie of someone being unfairly executed is going to change their minds.
That poor schmuck got it. That's a sad story. You know what's also a sad story. The homeless and hungry we have in each and every one of our cities. The people who lose their lives in my backyard. Individually i couldn't have stopped that mans death. I can accept the fact there is nothing i could have (realisticly) humanly done to save him. Not one damn thing. I know that war is going to continue on regardless of what i think. I know alot of people are going to die, and that sucks. As for outrage, i have neither the time nor energy to feel outraged over something i can't change.
What can i change and influence? The poor schmuck who doesn't get enough to eat every night.The woman who's husband beats her, the animal that is neglected; the things in my backyard.

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Tthe courage to change those that I can
And the wisdom to know the difference

[Senior]

Originally Posted by Goat

Yes it's an outrage. And you know what, just like vietnam, nicorauga, and geneva people protested. People have had rallies, sent relief money food and weopons. They've written letters to the president, the news networks, and lobbyists. Pro war media showed brave soldiers fighting for freedom. Anti war media showed burn victims, mass graves, and public executions. And you know who kept on fighting, regardless, time after time? The government. You think any government is going to pull out because of a few nasty pictures of someones corpse? fuck no.
They don't give a shit what people think as long as taxes get paid and the industrial and aggricultural sectors continue on each and every morning.
No movie of someone being unfairly executed is going to change their minds.
That poor schmuck got it. That's a sad story. You know what's also a sad story. The homeless and hungry we have in each and every one of our cities. The people who lose their lives in my backyard. Individually i couldn't have stopped that mans death. I can accept the fact there is nothing i could have (realisticly) humanly done to save him. Not one damn thing. I know that war is going to continue on regardless of what i think. I know alot of people are going to die, and that sucks. As for outrage, i have neither the time nor energy to feel outraged over something i can't change.
What can i change and influence? The poor schmuck who doesn't get enough to eat every night.The woman who's husband beats her, the animal that is neglected; the things in my backyard.

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Tthe courage to change those that I can
And the wisdom to know the difference

Hey props for helping people in your community.

On the other side of things mass oposition lead to the US withdraw from Vietnam and prevented Canada from going to Iraq.