Gwynne Dyer explains Iraq

[fable]

Originally Posted by decypher

Ok, don't tell me what i ought to study.

Can a prescriptive statement of what ought to be really be derived from what is? -- hume

My energies are right where they need to be. Sorry i don't want to enter the assimilating forces of your grass roots movement. I applaud what you do but as the above statement points out, you are attempting to derive your own conclusions from what is and so do many other people.

To say a conflict analysis that debates other points of view is useless is reactionary in itself. oh the irony in so many ways.

I was simply throwing some other knowledge out there for people to make up their own minds.

Saying my education means nothing is a pretty flacid assertion resting in shallow waters. Everyone has their own route to attainment. I'm still early in my education and being into philosophy i can see multiple viewpoints in any argument.

There's hypocricy behind every face of rhetoric. Words are but words and people use them to their advantage in every aspect.

...


I believe this is a better path for me to have a larger understanding in the end. I enjoy increasing my abilities at harvesting information and thinking in complex systems. To say what i do is nothing is unfounded. I have a vested interest in my family of which is a driving force in my studying. I also feel for the downtrodden as you do. Just because i do not participate in your movement doesn't make my path any less passionate. I do not need to follow.

I am quite proud that i have the oppurtunity to study at university and possibly use that to live abroad and work on these issues with large organizations. As you get older you realize not to take something like that for granted.

"1,2 many vietnams"

[cubed]

In closing, Kam will most likely bring a great deal more social change to this world than Shakeel and the other extremists sipping latte's at Joe's combined.


PS- Tell Joe I say hi, and be sure to ask him about the lesbians.

[Revolver]

Originally Posted by decypher

Saying my education means nothing is a pretty flacid assertion resting in shallow waters. Everyone has their own route to attainment. I'm still early in my education and being into philosophy i can see multiple viewpoints in any argument.
.

thats the most refined responce(complete ownage) ive read in a long, long time...

ha.

[fable]

Originally Posted by cubed

In closing, Kam will most likely bring a great deal more social change to this world than Shakeel and the other extremists sipping latte's at Joe's combined.


PS- Tell Joe I say hi, and be sure to ask him about the lesbians.

Most of the active organizers in this city are also undergrads at the very least, I have two professional degrees. Education is good, and a given, an expectation not to be confused with strategy. Post secondary education in this day and age needs to be tempered with action and invovlement with the most unglamorous and dirty, and shitty layers in society Im sure Kam will assist in making some significant change in his life. I hope he does. Hence the remark about fighting on multiple fronts.

Please do not refer to me as an extremist again.

[Noah]

Originally Posted by decypher

I have a vested interest in my family of which is a driving force in my studying.

Ahh yes, the vary reason there is war. Family. Is it not?

[robyn]

Originally Posted by decypher

I would think Iran would have played a larger role in regime change for Iraq.

Iran is a Shia theocratical state and Al-Qaeda subscribes to a radical sunni ideology. The sunnis held the power in Iraq under Saddam and now the Shia's hold the power with shia cleric Al-Sadr's militia having huge governmental sway.

Some say this has and will bring Iraq closer to Iran. So if Al-Qaeda was responsible for regime change as said, it didn't really play into their hands and i doubt they would have lacked that sort of foresight.

kameron, i disagree. the major players in al qaeda are politically motivated and using islam as a tool to motivate and recruit the little mujahadeens and further their own agendas. they don't care what kind of muslim you are.

i don't actually know what we're talking about here. i just wanted to demonstrate the we can have an effective discourse WITHOUT FUCKING YELLING AT EACHOTHER BECAUSE WE ARE INSECURE.

[Senior]

Originally Posted by fable

My personal thoughts are that what you believe in as orginizations for change and building are really about careerism and personal benefit. It exists in the status quo, where charity and palatable development for a relatively small demographic are substituted for actually fighting for self-determination of all oppressed nations.

*I missed the link for The Pivot Legal Society. Some of our organizers have worked together with PLS in the past (via the APC) and perhaps will work again in the near future, but matters of criticism will be internal only.

Using Happy Planet and a Vancouver MLA is not something I would recommend to continue using as a platform to have your points taken seriously. Neither is Vision Vancouver.

Name just one thing you have done to help oppressed people. You are so quick to shoot down the work of people like the Renewal Partners but I have yet to see you walk the walk. Besides protesting at the art gallery what exactly have you accomplished.

Interestingly enough Jim Green founded DERA and was the driving force behind the creation of nearly all of Vancouver's social housing. He then went on to become a founding member of Vision. Do you even know what Vision stands for? Try reading this and tell me what you disagree with, http://www.votevision.ca/about/

It's funny that after reading through www.mawovancouver.org/ the only thing talked about was pickets, protests, and rallies. I'm just curious here but who are these 50 groups that MAWO is composed of? Interestingly enough stopwar.ca listed all of their affiliates http://stopwar.ca/about/member_organizations.html

[esoter1c]

Originally Posted by Noah

Ahh yes, the vary reason there is war. Family. Is it not?

Only if you're related to Jesus/Allah.

[decypher]

Originally Posted by robyn

kameron, i disagree. the major players in al qaeda are politically motivated and using islam as a tool to motivate and recruit the little mujahadeens and further their own agendas. they don't care what kind of muslim you are.

That's a good point. I was just going on what i've read about relations between the two sects and Al-Qaeda.

[fable]

Originally Posted by Senior

Name just one thing you have done to help oppressed people. You are so quick to shoot down the work of people like the Renewal Partners but I have yet to see you walk the walk. Besides protesting at the art gallery what exactly have you accomplished.

Interestingly enough Jim Green founded DERA and was the driving force behind the creation of nearly all of Vancouver's social housing. He then went on to become a founding member of Vision. Do you even know what Vision stands for? Try reading this and tell me what you disagree with, http://www.votevision.ca/about/

It's funny that after reading through www.mawovancouver.org/ the only thing talked about was pickets, protests, and rallies. I'm just curious here but who are these 50 groups that MAWO is composed of? Interestingly enough stopwar.ca listed all of their affiliates http://stopwar.ca/about/member_organizations.html

I didnt realize that pace dictated the most effective path towards change. Nor do I look at my own contribution in terms of 'what can i get done before Im dead,' rather I think in terms of what will be the most impactful and what will create a leadership that will be able to substain and not crumble. I dont have any hotels, or libraries named after me, I dont have a charity fund, nor have I ever performed at a concert that brought in millions. Pickets and rallies are only a small part of the equation. They are a tactic, not a goal.

Senior, we have our paths mate, and if my critisisms are harsh, it is because I know what movements have been succesful historically and what the Status Quo left really means here in Canada. I believe the one that I share with others is the only trully independent one in Canada. MAWO is not the only group I work with, but it has been around for only three years, and the gains it has made have been amazing considering that it exists completely independant of any previous or current structure in Canada including Vision. People can throw around radical and extremism as much as they want, but I focuss on the fact that coallitions like MAWO are independant.

I also work with
http://www.firethistime.net
http://www.vancubasolidarity.com

as well as Free The Cuba 5 Committee Vancouver, Indigenous Rights and Action Progect...and the rest of the MAWO list, including Antiwar clubs at Cap, Langara, UBC and Douglas, CUPE, BCTF, CMG, TWU etc etc and almost the entire list that is on the site. You need to look again. The site is getting updated but will be back up soon. Last time I checked our list also includes Stopwar.

As for Jim Green I feel he is a corrupt jackass, and his name is mud in most of the DTES. He is as infamous as the Portland hotel society and as dirty.

ez

[fable]

One more thing senior, and perhaps this will clarify my anger, frustration or even apathy towards the orginizations you work for or support -that is, that I feel that social democracy as a whole and the structures that it has built is almost as bad as the meth thats going around the dtes these days. That being, its a distraction, an addiction that helps people feel like they are involved, and saps away any radicalization that has built in their souls as a direct result of being fed up with the fucked up conditions around them. Vision, the NDP, whatever. These are orginizations that are not built to empower people, rather they are built to siphon (sp?) away the intelligence, resolve and drive to make change from potential leaders and organizers.

I support and will always support your personal need to make change in this world. I hope your intelligence and humour keep you in this battle until you die. But I cannot and will not support the likes of any current SQL orginization that carries out the previously mentioned agenda. We've already lost so many good people that way.

ez

[ebbomega]

"please do not refer to me as an extremist again"

Pipings for social change, complaints against governmental lies at just about every single debate that involves the word "government", ability to latch onto any Conspiracy Theory that seem to come up, sincere refusal to EVER look from a different perspective, and overstating opinions as facts.

These are all qualities of an extremist.

[cubed]

Originally Posted by fable

Please do not refer to me as an extremist again.

But Shakeel, YOU ARE!

You envision things far too black and white, I've told you this on numerous occasions.

There are gray shades throughout this world that you don't see or even care to see for that matter.

[fable]

Originally Posted by cubed

But Shakeel, YOU ARE!

You envision things far too black and white, I've told you this on numerous occasions.

There are gray shades throughout this world that you don't see or even care to see for that matter.

You are completely right James, sometimes there is indeed shades of grey.

But when it comes to the destruction of human lives there is only black and red.

[fable]

Originally Posted by ebbomega

"please do not refer to me as an extremist again"

Pipings for social change, complaints against governmental lies at just about every single debate that involves the word "government", ability to latch onto any Conspiracy Theory that seem to come up, sincere refusal to EVER look from a different perspective, and overstating opinions as facts.

These are all qualities of an extremist.

I have lived a thousand perspectives and lived through hundreds of experiences that I shouldn't have walked away from. Today I have one perspective, it is broader than you believe and is based on the closest thing to love I will probably ever understand.

And for the record, I did say please.

[ebbomega]

WTF?

Dude, you've lived through ONE perspective, YOUR OWN.

Unless you're the Kwizatz Haderach I highly defy you to prove me otherwise.

Just because you've heard other accounts of what goes on in the world, doesn't mean you've seen things from their perspective.

Out of chance do you by chance live in your parents' basement, because you really sound like you do.

[ebbomega]

Originally Posted by fable

And for the record, I did say please.

For the record I never called you an extremist.

[fable]

Originally Posted by ebbomega

WTF?

Dude, you've lived through ONE perspective, YOUR OWN.

Unless you're the Kwizatz Haderach I highly defy you to prove me otherwise.

Just because you've heard other accounts of what goes on in the world, doesn't mean you've seen things from their perspective.

Out of chance do you by chance live in your parents' basement, because you really sound like you do.

Empathy, dialogue, travel and experience all have the ability to effect ones perspective. Yes, it will always be my own, but nothing is static, everything is moving/changing and in essence so do my collective views of the world around me.

[ebbomega]

Originally Posted by fable

Empathy, dialogue, travel and experience all have the ability to effect ones perspective. Yes, it will always be my own, but nothing is static, everything is moving/changing and in essence so do my collective views of the world around me.

Wow. You didn't take long to move from ideological poli-babble to idealogical hippie-babble.

Thanks for saying in an entire paragraph what I can say in two words:

People change.

You still didn't answer my question.

[fable]

Originally Posted by ebbomega

Wow. You didn't take long to move from ideological poli-babble to idealogical hippie-babble.

Thanks for saying in an entire paragraph what I can say in two words:

People change.

You still didn't answer my question.

1.) Wheres the idealogical?
2.) How can someone engaging in discussion about Iraqi sectarianism accuse someone else of babble?
3.) Top floor, my house, nice view

[ebbomega]

Originally Posted by fable

1.) Wheres the idealogical?

Sorry, maybe "fluffy" was the better word

2.) How can someone engaging in Iraqi sectarianism accuse someone else of babble?

Like this: You're babbling. (see how that works?)

3.) Top floor, my house, nice view

Not exactly if it's exactly that proud of thing to be living on your own when you still argue like your Mommy still cooks your meals.

[fable]

Originally Posted by ebbomega

Sorry, maybe "fluffy" was the better word



Like this: You're babbling. (see how that works?)



Not exactly if it's exactly that proud of thing to be living on your own when you still argue like your Mommy still cooks your meals.

I built the house I live in, and that my parents live in, alongside with my father and brother - not really something I am proud of, but something that gives me a little peace of mind, knowing that I wont need to subject my folks to a "retirement home" later in life. What exactly this has to do with Iraqi sectarian politics and abstract academic dialogue, Im not sure, but the more you talk about it, the more you become irrelevent. Perhaps its the direct result of the "blog" generation, and perhaps its as simple as, you being in love with your wit, but how about switching out of " i write for vice" and back into "what is the challenges we as young radicalized people have to offer and how"

On that train, if you havent already checked it out, read James P.Cannons "Socialism on Trial" I think you would enjoy it. For me, he is one of the best N.American professional organizers in the history of stateside movement building and propagandists.

ez
shak

[ebbomega]

I stopped arguing the actual issues with you because I learned some time ago that trying logical argument about political issues with you is akin to boxing a waterfall. So you'll excuse me if I deviate to semantics for the rest of the thread.

[Senior]

Originally Posted by ebbomega

I stopped arguing the actual issues with you because I learned some time ago that trying logical argument about political issues with you is akin to boxing a waterfall. So you'll excuse me if I deviate to semantics for the rest of the thread.

Sometimes I'm a slow learner but I'm really starting to see it your way.

[Senior]

Originally Posted by fable

"what is the challenges we as young radicalized people have to offer and how"

Radical is a commonly accepted synonym for extreme. Thanks for confirming what others have pointed out.

I asked you before what you stand for and you refused to answer unless I showed up at your coffee night. WTF is with this shit? You have no problem telling me and others that we're all idiots online but if I want to know what you stand for than I have to come see you in person?

From looking back at a few of your posts and your web site I can see that you support the Cuban revolution and hate social democracy. So than you're a communist?

Sorry I'm not jumping up to join your secret revolution.