Fixing Stanley Park vs fixing the problems in Vancouver

[lildonkey]

The fucking majority of addicts downtown are there because they arn't doing anything to get themselves out of their current living situations. There are MANY programs funded by the government to assist in the rehabilitation of the crackheads.

[miss.myra]

I see nothing wrong with people wanting to do good for what they feel strongly about.

It's obvious a lot of people in this city feel a strong connection with the park and feel they want to give back.

Did you feel the same way when millions around the world donated money for South East Asian tsunami victims? Hurricane Katrina victims? South Asian earthquake victims? How about people who regularly donate to causes that may not be evident in our own back yards such as aids in Africa? Endangered species in some far away rainforest? It's all a matter of perspective and what people feel they wish to give to, and with the condition of the world today, I don't think it's right to frown on people who are actually doing good- even if you think there are more worthy causes. To someone else's perspective there ALWAYS is a more worthy cause.

[.anya]

I think the question Winston was orginally asking is one which can't really be answered because it will ultimately be a value judgement (kind of what Myra is getting at). Both issues are important and relevant, and trying to determine which one is more worthy of our time and money is futile.

And it feels weird to read people making these blanket statements about homeless people, because it reminds me a lot of how I used to think. There is a lot more that centers around public policy issues that can be said about homelessness and welfare and any type of social aid programs. There is an element of choice in most people's case, but there are also many people out there who are mentally ill, and since a lot of treatment facilities have been shut down, we can't just expect these people to disappear.
I think I actually have less sympathy for homeless people that the average joe, buuut I am also a lot more aware of how public policy affects those that are less well off. So, as Sean said, the government cannot provide a band-aid solution to social problems, but it can sure influence the conditions under which we make choices.
'Choice' is not something in an isolated vacuum. Our choices are 'limited' (realistically) by a variety of factors which most people don't even question (financial stability, upbringing, social climate, etc etc). So saying that homeless people choose to be so isn't totally fair.

[Ree Fresh]

Originally Posted by SEAN!

A band aid solution is all the government can do, they cant do anything about people who are born handicapped, addicted to drugs or having a learning disablity which will limit their opportunities. They cant prevent people from having low self esteem, being depressed and self medicating with drugs. They are rarely able to take kids away from bad parents and the group/foster homes that are the alternative will never be perfect. So what do you expect the government to do? Some people are just born with a limited future and there really is nothing the system can do about it.

any social program that was developed to combat those problems would just be a money pit with no tangible results. all the government can really do is mitigate some of the harm.

The government can do a lot. And if ppl are asking for solution... we have a tone of them, we just cant get the funding or suport. There is only so much we can do, but I see a lot of kids who arnt even getting what they need or deserve. These kids are stuck in an 8-12 year old mind set and education.

There are some programs out there, but a lot of them have been cut. What these kids need is a bridge program from highschool to the real world. All they need is a little bit more guidence and life skill education so they are tought how to find a job, maintain a job, know basik skills for a job and how to take care of them selfs in an apartment. These ppl are not like you and I, these kids are in grade 12 and cant multiply or read a book passed a grade 3 level. They are nieve and very vunerable. They dont learn from their mistakes like we do.

As for kids who grow up in poverty... again child care and luch and breakfest programs are being cut. Why would a single mother work 9-5 if shes spending all her money on child care? How are these kids supose to learn if there hungry?

How would any human brain be able to deal with these kind of situation with out feeling the slightest bit deprest or haveing a low self esteam? Some kids do manage, but its too hard for some.

These ppl arnt asking us pay for everything while they do nothing, all they need is a little bit of guidence and support.

[Ree Fresh]

Originally Posted by miss.myra

I see nothing wrong with people wanting to do good for what they feel strongly about.

It's obvious a lot of people in this city feel a strong connection with the park and feel they want to give back.

Did you feel the same way when millions around the world donated money for South East Asian tsunami victims? Hurricane Katrina victims? South Asian earthquake victims? How about people who regularly donate to causes that may not be evident in our own back yards such as aids in Africa? Endangered species in some far away rainforest? It's all a matter of perspective and what people feel they wish to give to, and with the condition of the world today, I don't think it's right to frown on people who are actually doing good- even if you think there are more worthy causes. To someone else's perspective there ALWAYS is a more worthy cause.

People can do what ever they want with the money they earn, but I do start to question what the government does with its money. In the begining they said they only needed about 1-2 mill to fix up the park. Lots of companies and Jim Paterson chiped in which I thought was great, but then the government decided to put in an added 2 mill to a a total of 6 mill... isnt that way more than enough? Not to mention that the prime reason to fix up the park so fast is for the buisness who work in the tourisim industry. I start to feel the government cares more about the buisnesses than our situation in streets that has drasticly GROWN over the years.

[Séguin]

The mayor of Vancouver recently met with former NYC mayor Giuliani. Don't worry. They're going to clean up the streets of Vancouver.

[apri_peel]

i agree with rhia, its all about educating people early on
no, a bandage solution won't help, but a solution to educating society is probably what we need.

BC is hungry for labour, but most of it is in customer service industry. those people on the street don't even stand a chance at getting those jobs. some of the bigger guys could try out for construction work, but its hard to do labour jobs if you're hungry.

over the years governments have been shutting down many social programs created for the homeless because of lack of funding, and then ten years later they are looking for easy solutions to hide real problems.

getting many of the homeless people off the streets right now would be difficult, but solution lies in decreasing the numbers that end up on the streets, that is how you make it stop.

most social problems can't be fixed with an easy solution, but governments could start thinking about putting money into preventive solutions

[MC Hammered]

Originally Posted by miss.myra

I see nothing wrong with people wanting to do good for what they feel strongly about.

It's obvious a lot of people in this city feel a strong connection with the park and feel they want to give back.

Did you feel the same way when millions around the world donated money for South East Asian tsunami victims? Hurricane Katrina victims? South Asian earthquake victims? How about people who regularly donate to causes that may not be evident in our own back yards such as aids in Africa? Endangered species in some far away rainforest? It's all a matter of perspective and what people feel they wish to give to, and with the condition of the world today, I don't think it's right to frown on people who are actually doing good- even if you think there are more worthy causes. To someone else's perspective there ALWAYS is a more worthy cause.

I don't feel the same way about people that gave to help rebuild from the natural disasters that you pointed out... but what happened to Stanley Park doesn't even compare. A bunch of trees that fell down compared to the devastation of Katrina? Come on Myra.

I just find it very ironic that the people of this city and province gripe and complain about how our health care system is going to shit and then jump on the bandwagon and to make themselves feel better by donating all this money to clean up Stanley Park... then the gov't steps in and drops another $2 million when "there is no money for the health care
system" :gross:

I hope all those people who shelled out all that money don't have to go to the hospital as they will have lots of time waiting in the emergency room to think about their donation to this 'worthy cause'.

[Senior]

Originally Posted by MC Hammered

I don't feel the same way about people that gave to help rebuild from the natural disasters that you pointed out... but what happened to Stanley Park doesn't even compare. A bunch of trees that fell down compared to the devastation of Katrina? Come on Myra.

I just find it very ironic that the people of this city and province gripe and complain about how our health care system is going to shit and then jump on the bandwagon and to make themselves feel better by donating all this money to clean up Stanley Park... then the gov't steps in and drops another $2 million when "there is no money for the health care
system" :gross:

I hope all those people who shelled out all that money don't have to go to the hospital as they will have lots of time waiting in the emergency room to think about their donation to this 'worthy cause'.

we have a world class health care system, that is reflected by the fact that it is our governments largest expenditure. BC alone spent $11,500,000,000+ this year on health care. so lets no compare apples and oranges.

is spending all this money on Stanley park decadent? in my opinion yes, and I wouldn't put my money to it. but if someone else wants to I wouldn't bother getting bent out of shape over it.

[Senior]

p.s. Myra loves feel good causes like this so leave her alone!

[Courtney]

I think the Stanley Park thing is just bringing up the bigger issue. I'm very angry with the situation in Vancouver right now. We live in a gorgeous city, and one with a lot of wealth. Yet people just choose to ignore the fact that there is a MAJOR problem downtown, it's the typical out of sight out of mind.
I can't even believe that in one step you are in yaletown and then within a few...hastings. It's ridiculous that we just try to isolate the homeless into one spot and then willingly turn a blind eye.
To those people giving the bullshit "they got themselves in that position"
You know what, that's what everyone thinks and yes, there are many. But a majority of the people on the streets had mental issues to begin with and to say that they deserve to be on the streets is terrible.
I love Stanley Park and I am sad about it but fuck why doesn't anyone get it.
Vancouver, stop being so pretentious and maybe we can actually help someone other than ourselves

[Courtney]

Originally Posted by neoh

There are enough resources to allow people to get off the streets, it's more of a personal choice for the majority of those people then it is a case of getting fucked by our government in my opinion, millions are spent early on things we don't see behind the scenes in the down town east side. You give a junkie a million dollars, he'll still be a junkie, just with a suit and tie who will probably not give to society more then he already is. We can put more clothes on their back and warmer places to sleep, open up more shelters and give out more, but they will still be there tomorrow.

This is my two cents, from what it seems. Then again, what do I know about losing everything and being homeless, right?

INSENSITIVE.
if i was a drug addict I would probably have no faith in myself because of people like you.

[MC Hammered]

Originally Posted by Courtney

INSENSITIVE.
if i was a drug addict I would probably have no faith in myself because of people like you.

If you were a drug addict what you just typed would be that last thing you would be thinking of.

[MC Hammered]

Originally Posted by Senior

we have a world class health care system, that is reflected by the fact that it is our governments largest expenditure. BC alone spent $11,500,000,000+ this year on health care. so lets no compare apples and oranges.

is spending all this money on Stanley park decadent? in my opinion yes, and I wouldn't put my money to it. but if someone else wants to I wouldn't bother getting bent out of shape over it.

Where did BC get $11 billion dollars??

[Senior]

Originally Posted by MC Hammered

Where did BC get $11 billion dollars??

http://www.bcbudget.gov.bc.ca/2006/highlights/

I believe around half of that is transfer payments from the feds and the other half is from BC sales/income tax.

[miss.myra]

Hasn't it already been said that all the money in the world won't get rid of things such as poverty, drug addiction, mental illness, etc.

Even with more money pumped into the DTES it's not going to completely eliminate these problems, although it may do a bit to alleviate them which is always welcome.

Some people may have the same reaction if the fed. gov pledged to put more money into places like the DTES or insite saying it should go to education or healthcare. Others may feel that money put into the aforementioned two is better put to the environment or global warming. As I said, it's all a matter of perspective, and not that I agree or disagree with the point here, you have to put that into mind. Some people on this board don't even believe in donating to charities for causes that aren't in their immediate vicinity, and others disagree. People can jump down my throat all they want and it still doesn't change that this is a matter of perspective and that people have different values of what is or isn't important to them. Look at the replies in this thread, it is clearly evident that a lot of people don't believe there should be more money put towards the problems in Vancouver of drug addiction, poverty, homlelessness, etc.

edit- nobody else has added that Jimmy Pattision can do pretty much anything he would like with his own money.

[MC Hammered]

Originally Posted by miss.myra

edit- nobody else has added that Jimmy Pattision can do pretty much anything he would like with his own money.

Jimmy Pattison gave $1million on TV to get that back as a tax benefit (charity donation) and more in business from the lemmings of BC.

IMO a very smart business decision.

[stephen_c]

"fixing stanley park" <- what does that mean?
aside from removin hazards
and plant seedings where trees have fallen
the rest is up to mother nature.
there's nothin else to do but wait.

logging & tree plantin does NOT cost millions
in fact the former is revenue generating.
as for tree plantin,
we plant over 200 million seedings every year in this province.
i'm sure we can set aside some for stanley park..

[lildonkey]

Originally Posted by miss.myra

I see nothing wrong with people wanting to do good for what they feel strongly about.

It's obvious a lot of people in this city feel a strong connection with the park and feel they want to give back.

Did you feel the same way when millions around the world donated money for South East Asian tsunami victims? Hurricane Katrina victims? South Asian earthquake victims? How about people who regularly donate to causes that may not be evident in our own back yards such as aids in Africa? Endangered species in some far away rainforest? It's all a matter of perspective and what people feel they wish to give to, and with the condition of the world today, I don't think it's right to frown on people who are actually doing good- even if you think there are more worthy causes. To someone else's perspective there ALWAYS is a more worthy cause.

no offense, but comaring the stanley park thing to a tsunami that killed more then 200 thousand people