Is institutional schooling the opiate of the masses?

[ebbomega]

Originally Posted by azazel

And how are you so certain that school HASN'T effected you to a large extent again?

Who said I was talking about myself? I'm easily programmed and I know this.

I'm just certain that you have no evidence to say that this is true for the whole populous, or even really the masses.

[tiedye]

Originally Posted by azazel

But to flesh things out if I must, an opiate is something that has a dulling effect on people.

My experience with opium tea was anything but dulling.

[decypher]

Originally Posted by azazel

first of all I'm not trying to write a dissertation (this is not hwk), so you can stop trying to counter/contradict everything you see. I didn't write my complete ideas in the OP because I want to hear what other people have to say. ;)

But to flesh things out if I must, an opiate is something that has a dulling effect on people. Based on all the people I see in a state of arrested development, I posit that school is the culprit.

yes but how does it do that? You have no point. How is school dulling? Because it opens doors and opportunities for some? Because some people learn to think critically? I don't quite see how everyone in school is a passive dupe. There's so many things wrong with that statement. Some people may be easily impressionable but others are not at all. Everyone takes on their education with their own biases and backgrounds. This phenomena your trying to explain goes into many other issues. So by saying school is the culprit for some sort of illusory reality that you seem to see in everyone is largely reductionist.

[pstylez]

Originally Posted by ebbomega

My point is you can't make sweeping generalizations like that without looking like a fool. You keep ignoring the exceptions to the rule, and it's a surefire way to undercut your position by exhibiting such a blatant bias.

Having a bias is okay, but failing to admit or acknowledge such a bias is very detrimental to an argument, particularly when it's being reviewed by peers (or marked by a TA).

And I still think using the phrase "opiate of the masses" is hella cliche.

OKAY...

#1 Generalizations are generalizations because the exceptions to the rule are factored in. It is a given if you generalize, that the exceptions to the rule are factored in.

#2 "opiate of the masses," although cliche, was coined because of the ability to "enslave" others attitudes, behaviors, knowledges and religions is real and palpable. Not only real and paplable, but ever present in any movement involving a group of dedicated members.

Yeah.

[azazel]

Originally Posted by decypher

yes but how does it do that? You have no point. How is school dulling? Because it opens doors and opportunities for some? Because some people learn to think critically? I don't quite see how everyone in school is a passive dupe. There's so many things wrong with that statement. Some people may be easily impressionable but others are not at all. Everyone takes on their education with their own biases and backgrounds. This phenomena your trying to explain goes into many other issues. So by saying school is the culprit for some sort of illusory reality that you seem to see in everyone is largely reductionist.

wiki "government re-education camp" and read my response to R Wellbelove

[azazel]

Originally Posted by pstylez

OKAY...

#1 Generalizations are generalizations because the exceptions to the rule are factored in. It is a given if you generalize, that the exceptions to the rule are factored in.

#2 "opiate of the masses," although cliche, was coined because of the ability to "enslave" others attitudes, behaviors, knowledges and religions is real and palpable. Not only real and paplable, but ever present in any movement involving a group of dedicated members.

Yeah.

I wish we didn't get caught up in these side debates ;)

[azazel]

psytlez, you opinion on the matter?

[ebbomega]

Originally Posted by pstylez

OKAY...

#1 Generalizations are generalizations because the exceptions to the rule are factored in. It is a given if you generalize, that the exceptions to the rule are factored in.

GENERALISATIONS ARE GENERAL? You don't say.

But they're also dangerous because you begin saying things that aren't necessarily true.

#2 "opiate of the masses," although cliche, was coined because of the ability to "enslave" others attitudes, behaviors, knowledges and religions is real and palpable. Not only real and paplable, but ever present in any movement involving a group of dedicated members.

The word "control" takes 5 less syllables and gets the same idea across and makes you look less like an armchair philosopher.

[azazel]

education: Pharisees in their ivory towers (equivalent of Ph.d's) who could not recognize Jesus.

first-hand revelation (experience): John the Baptist, who lived in the desert and ate locusts, and would baptize Jesus.

[azazel]

Originally Posted by ebbomega

GENERALISATIONS ARE GENERAL? You don't say.

But they're also dangerous because you begin saying things that aren't necessarily true.



The word "control" takes 5 less syllables and gets the same idea across and makes you look less like an armchair philosopher.

stop nit picking dude

[pstylez]

Originally Posted by azazel

stop nit picking dude

Well said azazel.

Originally Posted by ebbomega

GENERALISATIONS ARE GENERAL? You don't say.

But they're also dangerous because you begin saying things that aren't necessarily true.



The word "control" takes 5 less syllables and gets the same idea across and makes you look less like an armchair philosopher.

The entire "opiate of the masses" phrase is a preference term. The proper use of this term is based on opinion. People will either save 5 syllables or use those 5 syllables depending on how they decide to impact their audience.

The funny thing is you mentioned generalizations again which keep reinforcing my argument. The only time generalizations are dangerous is when you talk to somebody who is not analytical in their thinking or if emotions get involved.

The funny thing about people is they almost always assume that if you generalize then it MUST be about them when the core meaning of the word takes into account the people in the margins.

[azazel]

Originally Posted by azazel

psytlez, you opinion on the matter?

:idea:

[pstylez]

Originally Posted by azazel

:idea:

What matter? There is matter? What is matter?

[jenai]

Originally Posted by robyn

wouldn't it be fun if opium was the opiate of the masses

my opiate is chlor-tripolon aka chlorpheniramine. :p

i itch less, am sedated, and wake up with a smile on my face.

it's a popular otc antidepressant, really.

[P.A.R.T.Y]

I chose to embrace social Marxism in H.S. and was austrisized by peers, who thought I should be concentrating on the latest fashion. I spent a lot of time in the library reading 1-sided books on communism in which they made every communist leaded (Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Fidel, etc.) out as enemies.
I realized that school was an institution of lies and a way to keep kids locked into the system. It's not quite as bad as Japan (that's a gong show) but the freedom of thought it controlled by the teaching material the teachers are required to teach.
The secret was to understand it was bullshit, excel, get a scholarship and go to University. Like Rhia said, only 16% make it and the rest are left with the minimum wage job.
There is a light at the end of the tunnel for those who realize that school is just another form of social hierarchy. The real lessons of life come in the form of experience. It's up to everyone to do something with their lives, make something of themselves, progress into the beauty that is humanity.

[robyn]

Originally Posted by P.A.R.T.Y

I spent a lot of time in the library reading 1-sided books on communism in which they made every communist leaded (Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Fidel, etc.) out as enemies.

yeah i've never understood why historians treat stalin so unfairly. in reality he was no worse than hitler.

[rawb]

Originally Posted by P.A.R.T.Y

I realized that school was an institution of lies

CRAWWWWLINNNNGGGGGG INNNNN MY SKINNNNNNNNN
THHHESEEE WOUNNNNNDS THEYYYY WILLLL NOTTTT HEAAAAAAL

[decypher]

Originally Posted by P.A.R.T.Y

I chose to embrace social Marxism in H.S. and was austrisized by peers, who thought I should be concentrating on the latest fashion. I spent a lot of time in the library reading 1-sided books on communism in which they made every communist leaded (Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Fidel, etc.) out as enemies.
I realized that school was an institution of lies and a way to keep kids locked into the system. It's not quite as bad as Japan (that's a gong show) but the freedom of thought it controlled by the teaching material the teachers are required to teach.
The secret was to understand it was bullshit, excel, get a scholarship and go to University. Like Rhia said, only 16% make it and the rest are left with the minimum wage job.
There is a light at the end of the tunnel for those who realize that school is just another form of social hierarchy. The real lessons of life come in the form of experience. It's up to everyone to do something with their lives, make something of themselves, progress into the beauty that is humanity.

I think there's a difference in fighting for a social democratic society and revering Mao lol. I think you have your t-shirt ideology and your policies mixed up. Did you live through Mao and what the cultural revolution became? I should let you have a chat with my father. You're over simplifying everything.

How can you say it's up to everyone to make something for themselves and then talk about communism and social welfare in the same breath. LOLSATHON.

ps. social marxism was the latest fad when you were in highschool.

[P.A.R.T.Y]

“History is written by the victors.” Winston Churchill.

Hardly any other students took any interest in politics at all. I was a civil libertarian, I had a subscription to western standard, I debated with my teachers.

I was not trendy or trying to be cool. I just wanted to know why I had one book laying out the facts of communism and a school library books with scary pictures of Stalin, telling me communism was evil.
So, good luck with your analysis. Maybe you can equate my interest in politics to my rampant drug use, ooops, I was 16.

[NinjaBoy]

Originally Posted by P.A.R.T.Y

“History is written by the victors.” Winston Churchill.

Hardly any other students took any interest in politics at all. I was a civil libertarian, I had a subscription to western standard, I debated with my teachers.

I was not trendy or trying to be cool. I just wanted to know why I had one book laying out the facts of communism and a school library books with scary pictures of Stalin, telling me communism was evil.
So, good luck with your analysis. Maybe you can equate my interest in politics to my rampant drug use, ooops, I was 16.

I'm pretty sure we all had the same school books. Yes it presented soviet Russia as fairly evil dictatorship.

But it was. Soviet Russia was not a true communist society (and I don't think one could exist). The only difference between Soviet Russia's dictorship and other facist dictatorships was the slogans on the propaganda poster.

And I'm sorry they had "scary" pictures of Stalin. But he was fairly evil. Yes I know you said "History is written by the victors" (not sure why you would use a winston churchill quote while condeming public education which Chruchill was a champian of), but it's true. He killed people. A lot of people.

___________

I can't stand how pseudo intellectuals sit around and tout communisim, and condem the current society we live in.

They sit around talking about alternative politics to make themselves feel better for getting shitty grades. People like this are no better then the establishments they condem. They sit around with their clique mocking people who don't share their ideals, convinced they are sheep.

Yes, a lot of things in school sucked. You brought up your peers being more conerned over fashion then anything else, which I find hard to believe. But I probably didn't brood in the corner trying to tell myself they were all sheep, and found people in school who shared the same values as I did. I took this healthy situation, pay attention in class, formed my own opinions. Learned great lessons, as well as some knowledge that was outdated, or useless. But in the end I took my education, and combined it with my real world experiences and came out on top. Which is why I'm living my dream, instead of sitting in a coffee shop complaining about classes (which means jack shit once you worry about making yourself better rather then what other people have).

You might not agree with some of the politics taught in later levels, but school is nessesary. Without the years of schooling leading up to those levels, you wouldn't be able to understand any of those politics that you either agree with or don't.

Society provides a free education and the support 99% of people need to make it through said education. It's not a zombie factory, it's not a house of lies. Like anything in life, you take it and combine it with your real life experiences rather then bitching.

[robyn]

Originally Posted by P.A.R.T.Y

I was not trendy or trying to be cool. I just wanted to know why I had one book laying out the facts of communism and a school library books with scary pictures of Stalin, telling me communism was evil.

you honestly can't understand why a theoretical discussion of communism and an account of a regime where hundreds of thousands died needlessly might draw different conclusions?

[yoko*]

I think we're talking about liberal arts education/courses here though. I mean, there actually is such thing as useful practical technical education with applications to REAL LIFE problems that can be solved materially.

liberal arts courses tend to deal with social values and so the perceived "problems" and their perceived "solutions" are never agreed upon by all. They are instead discussed to death while no real social change is materialized.

Scholars in the liberal arts never lack the courage to point out what's wrong in society, but as soon as it comes to solving the problems they "discover", they retreat into their shells. I guess this is why liberal arts prepares you well for law school. It teaches you to identify problems where they doesn't exist and to argue for any perspective under the sun.

[rawb]

Originally Posted by yoko*

I think we're talking about liberal arts education/courses here though. I mean, there actually is such thing as useful practical technical education with applications to REAL LIFE problems that can be solved materially.

liberal arts courses tend to deal with social values and so the perceived "problems" and their perceived "solutions" are never agreed upon by all. They are instead discussed to death while no real social change is materialized.

Scholars in the liberal arts never lack the courage to point out what's wrong in society, but as soon as it comes to solving the problems they "discover", they retreat into their shells. I guess this is why liberal arts prepares you well for law school. It teaches you to identify problems where they doesn't exist and to argue for any perspective under the sun.

:love:

[azazel]

Originally Posted by yoko*

I think we're talking about liberal arts education/courses here though. I mean, there actually is such thing as useful practical technical education with applications to REAL LIFE problems that can be solved materially.

liberal arts courses tend to deal with social values and so the perceived "problems" and their perceived "solutions" are never agreed upon by all. They are instead discussed to death while no real social change is materialized.

Scholars in the liberal arts never lack the courage to point out what's wrong in society, but as soon as it comes to solving the problems they "discover", they retreat into their shells. I guess this is why liberal arts prepares you well for law school. It teaches you to identify problems where they doesn't exist and to argue for any perspective under the sun.

I'm actually talking about the institution of schooling itself. I'm trying to separate "schooling" from "education" as it were.

my story: I ran into an old friend at Starbucks. We got caught up with each other and she was telling me how she was quitting her lucrative job at a defense contractor to become a yoga teacher. Here was a girl who basically had it 'made' as I was led to believe because she pulled all the grades in elementary and high school and even uni. Her parents pushed her every step of the way because 'education was important' and she used to joke all the time that her framed degree was one of their grand kids. While she was successful academically, she often confided to me how much she hated school. Anyway, high school segued into university with nothing in between (life experiences, traveling, etc) and she studied computer science because it was 'hot' at the time.

Anyway, she graduated and got a job and within 1 year she found the work so "soul destroying" (her words) that she became clinically depressed. The only thing that she could find solace in was her yoga and she decided to take that on instead. In the meantime, her parents disowned her for "throwing away her life" and the education that they paid for (that she never wanted in the first place).

I guess my point is that the current generation is literally spending 22 years getting themselves groomed for a job that they have no idea about. The time spent in the four walls of a classroom is so long that doesn't just lead to ADD, but total distortion of reality. If instead my friend was allowed to experience things on her own (like yoga) much earlier in life, she would have found her calling and it would have saved her a lot of anguish and missed opportunities.

[yoko*]

Originally Posted by azazel

I guess my point is that the current generation is literally spending 22 years getting themselves groomed for a job that they have no idea about. The time spent in the four walls of a classroom is so long that doesn't just lead to ADD, but total distortion of reality. If instead my friend was allowed to experience things on her own (like yoga) much earlier in life, she would have found her calling and it would have saved her a lot of anguish and missed opportunities.

The entire experience of "The current generation" is not embodied in your one-person example of a girl who was brainwashed by her parents to pursue education simply because it's the right thing to do, and not because she had an academic or career objective in mind.

Some people spend more than 22 years in academia to reach a career or personal objective or because they enjoy learning what they do.

The only people who are wasting their time in the schooling system are those who drag their feets through the experience for the sake of someone other than themselves.