Waking people up to what's really happening

[Goat]

So now can you explan me why there is people that have way more than they realy need and spend in a holl life time, and other people that have almosts nothing to live with?

People, going back to the dark ages, have always lived this way. To compete, to prove oneself, to strive to become better, they're all conditions of human nature. Consequentley, not everyone can be a winner.

Communism/Socialism is a great idea but when has it ever succeeded in practice?

and convince other peoples what is bests for them

Convince people to choose absolutely a capitalist or socialist point of view by using cheap right/left wing propaganda? No thanks.

blah, this conversation is over.

[wum]

Not too be rude, but perhaps you could give us your own conclusion to all of this stuff. Governments are corrupt, what else is new? What's their plan? Is it a desperate bid to control the world's last oil resources? Is it just plain imperialism? One World government? What's the point to all of this?

[cyclic]

perhaps in some distant evolved future full of automation and globally harmonized networks where people have been geneticly modified to lose traits like greed , hate etc.

for now we live in a society that rewards such behaviour

we live in a time where certain words and ideologies have been tainted by the failures of the past, i suggest some enlightened modern philosopher types come up with some ideas that are based on the world we live in today rather than trying to hold on to the past as if it was some kind of static entity.

canada has had quite a bit of relative success with socialistic programs (healthcare etc.)

i think this is like some kindof scarey thing for the people who would like to banish the thought of a succesful socialism.

ok, i shut up now.

[Goat]

i think this is like some kindof scarey thing for the people who would like to banish the thought of a succesful socialism.

There's nothing wrong with social enhancing programs. I just don't believe absolute socialism, as pointed out, is any where near realistic. That's my beef.
ps: good post cyclic.

Think what you like, this conversation started going nowhere along time ago.

[wum]

Originally Posted by Goat

There's nothing wrong with social enhancing programs. I just don't believe absolute socialism, as pointed out, is any where near realistic. That's my beef.
ps: good post cyclic.

Think what you like, this conversation started going nowhere along time ago.

social services = inferior product/service + mo' expensive + politicized

We will never have freedom in Canada until we have a libertarian society which allows us to keep the money we EARN. End of story.

[djmarkpaul]

Originally Posted by Goat

maztraz
4. Humour me for a sec, lets pretend people actually start to give a shit, what happens then? who runs the show, what policies would be put into affect to void or counteract existing circumstances?

Division of labor, which has had so much to do with bringing us to the present global crisis, works daily to prevent our understanding the origins of this horrendous present. Mary Lecron Foster (1990) surely errs on the side of understatement in allowing that anthropology is today "in danger of serious and damaging fragmentation." Shanks and Tilley (1987b) voice a rare, related challenge: "The point of archaeology is not merely to interpret the past but to change the manner in which the past is interpreted in the service of social reconstruction in the present." Of course, the social sciences themselves work against the breadth and depth of vision necessary to such a reconstruction. In terms of human origins and development, the array of splintered fields and sub-fields- anthropology, archaeology, paleontology, ethnology, paleobotany, ethnoanthropology, etc., etc. - mirrors the narrowing, crippling effect that civilization has embodied from its very beginning.

Nonetheless, the literature can provide highly useful assistance, if approached with an appropriate method and awareness and the desire to proceed past its limitations. In fact, the weakness of more or less orthodox modes of thinking can and does yield to the demands of an increasingly dissatisfied society. Unhappiness with contemporary life becomes distrust with the official lies that are told to legitimate that life, and a truer picture of human development emerges. Renunciation and subjugation in modern life have long been explained as necessary concomitants of "human nature." After all, our pre-civilized existence of deprivation, brutality, and ignorance made authority a benevolent gift that rescued us from savagery. "Cave man" and `Neanderthal' are still invoked to remind us where we would be without religion, government, and toil.

This ideological view of our past has been radically overturned in recent decades, through the work of academics like Richard Lee and Marshall Sahlins. A nearly complete reversal in anthropological orthodoxy has come about, with important implications. Now we can see that life before domestication/agriculture was in fact largely one of leisure, intimacy with nature, sensual wisdom, sexual equality, and health. This was our human nature, for a couple of million years, prior to enslavement by priests, kings, and bosses.

In short, the answer is simple. Terrance McKenna called it an archaic revival. The other choice really is a 1984 world government and if you can't tell with all the biometrics that are coming out these days and with this so-called war-on-terror then you must really enjoy materialism, so much so that you have been blinded by it. This doesn't mean we get rid of technology, but we do have to put it on hold for a while before it's too late. The choice isn't hard, but time is running out for us to have a say. Freedom of speach only exists if we agree with our country's policies. That's why peaceful protesters get maced in public demostrations and we now have riot cops breaking up entire gatherings instead of targeting soley on the few trouble makers. Consumerism is slavery to those with the biggest appetites. Are you really that apathetic not to care?

[decypher]

Originally Posted by Goat

Jumping on the 'fuck Bush' bandwagon and trying to force feed everyone else a look on a supposedly black and white society is false and as unproductive as the government currently sitting.

I'm no bandwagon jumper, i've been Anti-Bush since day 1.

Nothing wrong with spreading information.

[Senior]

Originally Posted by wum

social services = inferior product/service + mo' expensive + politicized

We will never have freedom in Canada until we have a libertarian society which allows us to keep the money we EARN. End of story.

Can you provide a shread of evidence to back up this statement??? ANYTHING????

[wum]

Originally Posted by Senior

Can you provide a shread of evidence to back up this statement??? ANYTHING????

It's common sense dude. Tax funded programs like public education or tranportation are no different from a monopoly. One, they have a guaranteed income (taxpayers), two they have no competition. As we know, competition for money is the incentive to constantly develop newer, better, cheaper products. Without it, services become bloated, stagnated, and end up costing more money. Just look at the transit personnel.

[zarlon]

[b]some worm cloths [b]

buddy you cant even spell WARM. here i go, disregarding, again.

thx.

[wum]

To DJ Mark Paul, I think that the industrial revolution and our current agricultural practices which lead to an unnaturally high rate of urbanization (90 percent city dwellers) is a factor as well. We need to go back to organic farming where people start working as a community again.

[Senior]

Originally Posted by wum

It's common sense dude. Tax funded programs like public education or tranportation are no different from a monopoly. One, they have a guaranteed income (taxpayers), two they have no competition. As we know, competition for money is the incentive to constantly develop newer, better, cheaper products. Without it, services become bloated, stagnated, and end up costing more money. Just look at the transit personnel.

While there is a kernel of truth to what you say, it's very misleading to apply such a generalization to all concepts. If you want to talk about something like medical science than yes competition and private business can play a very important role. Look at the highly successful model they have in Australia. By incorporating public institutions and their funding with the best the private sector has to offer they have managed to become a world leader despite their relatively small economy. As an example see http://www.ctc.usyd.edu.au/ On the other side of things free enterprise does not in any way guarantee competition. Look at companies like Microsoft or Walmart that via free enterprise actually discourage competition and promote inferior products and services. Look at all the problems down in Mexico with free enterprise discouraging competition. Companies like Coke and Telmex have actually driven prices way up via free enterprise. As far as the administration of health care services private enterprise does not and will not deliver them for less. Case in point look at per capita medical expenditures between Canada and the US. The US spends more than Canada and that's with some 40+ million people not having access to health care.

Public companies are more accountable to their customers than private companies because we own them. If a public company is not performing it's job properly we can push to have the problem fixed. Also with public companies you can do things like intentionally run a loss. Say with a public utility like an electric company you could sell electricity for less than the cost of production to attract industry and make more than that loss back through taxing that industry while also creating employment.

As for public education it's far from perfect but has been the single most important tool to for wealth creation globally. Look at countries like Ireland, long the worst economy in the EU and now one of the best due in large part to the massive subsidies to education, primary through Post Secondary. They are the EU's top high tech as well as pharmaceutical manufacturer. This is because they have an abundance of skilled/educated labour available.

Now you want to talk about bloated? Look no further than private enterprise and their CEO's salaries. For their failure Vioxx's top 300 employee's have been offered a guaranteed payout of 3 years wages if the company is taken over and they lose their jobs. This is because they failed at what they are supposed to be good at. Look at Enron, Worldcom, and so forth, the list goes on.

While nothing is ever going to be perfect a libertarian society is akin to expecting a hockey team to win the Stanley Cup with out a coach. That's not to say that communism or capitalism are any better. If we look to elements of all three though and combine bits and pieces that actually work than we can have a healthy prosperous society. Look at countries like Norway and Sweden that are consistently ranked in the top 10 best places to do business even though they have some of the highest personal and corporate tax rates. Then look at the US it's also consistently in the top 10 best places to do business, they have low personal and corporate taxes. While either model can and will work the US does have a much lower standard of living.

[maztraz]

Hmm...This is more of economical idea of the world, there is alot of model country to not take exemple on, even if there technology are on the top level of recherches. Cause mosts of those countries are based on profits and not the real work, I don't think its the case for everything, but its often what the system are based on, its like Commercialising taxes, for exemple: you buy t-shirts: at firsts it will costs a few cents from the fabricator'' Lets say there is 1000 t-shirts for sell'' from in Asian countrie/and then that will be exported to a distribution it will costs extra money around 3$ to 5$/tee depending what its made of with no print on it ''of course''/and then a shop will buy it from a Distribution and then will be commercialised and that price will double or even be triple around 9$ to 15$/tee /and then you buy that T-shirt 9$ or 15$ when you know you could buy it from the fabricator a few cents going to a 1$ and he has done most of the work on it, imagine if you calculated what the Distribution benefits and Shop benefits wer, Lets say that would make around 8900$ to 14'900$/1000 tees, that is crazy when we know that the one working on it has earned about 0,01% on a total of 9000$ to 15'000$/1000 tees...Is this normal? when you think of it there are working more then us ''on the actual product'', having also much less benefits on it, and probably work more hours then we can do in our holl mizirable lifes when we know those countries are earning 1% of what our countries are earning, you guys don't imagine how lucky we are and we'ed be nothing with out those countries...(Yes exacly no 24/7 party, bad healt care, bad Educational system, working much more etc..you get the idea, and that is exacly what those countries are earning at the moment)


Public or Private depending the country will be rether good or bad(some countries have better private structures then public), it will tell you also how the system is taxing ''more or less'' and ''how smart they spend it in''.
But there is so many countries now that are spending way over what they can realy be earning, and that always end by falling on the citizens taxes.
When you take to compare Canada to US heath cares, you see witch country is more of a profit country, ''but are the citizen having any good profit on the US health care system?''Hard to believe...
What does this realy bring to the middle and poor classe when you know that there taxes are going in that medical recherche and there are having no real profit once again on it! No wonder there recherche are always more into future then any other cause theres probably billion's of dollars financing there recherches and technologies coming from all around the world...Is this still a mistory for you?


I think a coach is a bad exemple, its like taking to compare a teacher to a Military there is many different reasons for what there are doing it....
There is a big difference between coaching and giving orders to someone, learning subjects to people and learning someone how to kill and survive....etc
Im sorry US has alot of other problemes like every countries in the world, there is alot of poor classes, I've been to US and I have never seen as much homeless in my life in a high economical country, that is terrible when you know there is more and more homeless every year in that country and the rich people are just in there 2 000 000$ palace...this is just over realist..
Please don't compare US cause I could bring alot that would disapoint you about there social systems.

[Senior]

Originally Posted by maztraz

Hmm...This is more of economical idea of the world, there is alot of model country to not take exemple on, even if there technology are on the top level of recherches. Cause mosts of those countries are based on profits and not the real work, I don't think its the case for everything, but its often what the system are based on, its like Commercialising taxes, for exemple: you buy t-shirts: at firsts it will costs a few cents from the fabricator'' Lets say there is 1000 t-shirts for sell'' from in Asian countrie/and then that will be exported to a distribution it will costs extra money around 3$ to 5$/tee depending what its made of with no print on it ''of course''/and then a shop will buy it from a Distribution and then will be commercialised and that price will double or even be triple around 9$ to 15$/tee /and then you buy that T-shirt 9$ or 15$ when you know you could buy it from the fabricator a few cents going to a 1$ and he has done most of the work on it, imagine if you calculated what the Distribution benefits and Shop benefits wer, Lets say that would make around 8900$ to 14'900$/1000 tees, that is crazy when we know that the one working on it has earned about 0,01% on a total of 9000$ to 15'000$/1000 tees...Is this normal? when you think of it there are working more then us ''on the actual product'', having also much less benefits on it, and probably work more hours then we can do in our holl mizirable lifes when we know those countries are earning 1% of what our countries are earning, you guys don't imagine how lucky we are and we'ed be nothing with out those countries...(Yes exacly no 24/7 party, bad healt care, bad Educational system, working much more etc..you get the idea, and that is exacly what those countries are earning at the moment)


Public or Private depending the country will be rether good or bad(some countries have better private structures then public), it will tell you also how the system is taxing ''more or less'' and ''how smart they spend it in''.
But there is so many countries now that are spending way over what they can realy be earning, and that always end by falling on the citizens taxes.
When you take to compare Canada to US heath cares, you see witch country is more of a profit country, ''but are the citizen having any good profit on the US health care system?''Hard to believe...
What does this realy bring to the middle and poor classe when you know that there taxes are going in that medical recherche and there are having no real profit once again on it! No wonder there recherche are always more into future then any other cause theres probably billion's of dollars financing there recherches and technologies coming from all around the world...Is this still a mistory for you?


I think a coach is a bad exemple, its like taking to compare a teacher to a Military there is many different reasons for what there are doing it....
There is a big difference between coaching and giving orders to someone, learning subjects to people and learning someone how to kill and survive....etc
Im sorry US has alot of other problemes like every countries in the world, there is alot of poor classes, I've been to US and I have never seen as much homeless in my life in a high economical country, that is terrible when you know there is more and more homeless every year in that country and the rich people are just in there 2 000 000$ palace...this is just over realist..
Please don't compare US cause I could bring alot that would disapoint you about there social systems.

You lost me here, completely. I guess you're an ESL student?? Anyway no offence I just couldn't get anything coherant out of this.

[maztraz]

Maybe I didn't use the proper words, or was to indirectly speaking(sorry English is my secondary language)....Im not saying that all this is bad...
Im trying to say that we have to be carefull to what we are taking exemples on and other Economical profits...

You probably prefectly know the impact in mosts countries in Africa and Asia...If those countries were profiting like North American or Europe are profting on those countries for exemple, we'ed probably be what most african countries are becoming... Am I rong or this wasn't enough of a clear exemple?:140:

ESL student.! not exacly...''''if you want to call it that way''''no probleme we are all students

Its cool man..theres no offence,arguing is always good....:202: