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Nov 30, 05
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Fable you're poor, you wanna know why its cause your iggnorant and brain washed. Your opinions and views about life/government are way the fuck out there man. You live in some kind of fantasy world that you created for yourself. Wake up and smell the coffee, be greatful for what you got, cause its a privilage. If you don't like the way the Canadian government is ran, then get the fuck out of Canada. Nobody want's you here anyways. AND your "white trash" comments are really pissing me of and you need to shut the fuck up about that.
I just wanna know what makes you so special, how the hell do you contribute to making this great country a better place for everyone. You, don't you are just a racist stereotypical piece of shit that needs to be put in his place. 
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Nov 30, 05
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i wish all my enemies where as blinded by their own misconceptions as you are. It would make things a lot easier.
How is fighting for the rights of oppressed people whining? What views of mine about the government are "whacked out?" Be specific please? What statments about historical acts of aggression against minorities, indegenous people, women and immigrants am i incorrect about? What are your own personal stories of experiencing oppression? What exactly do you know that i do? What is "fantasy" about wanting to break down the walls between the people of a nation and there government? Quote:
Do you support the government? Do you support the precedent of various doctories down the line? What exactly do you support? Quote:
You havent stated any facts, or your opinions of Canadian government, and you havent even countered a SINGLE one of my points. Your yapping as usuall, making things, personal as usual because you are unable to counter anything, becuase you have no understanding. You think waving a Canadian flag, knowing the anthem and working hard, makes you a contributor to the betterment of the people of Canada? You think i lie when i state that i belive that the general population is increasingly being controlled and manipulated by the government? Do you belive in Canadas role in Haiti, and Afghanistan and Iraq? Do you have any clue what CIDA is, does, or plans to do? Do you know a single fucking thing about current immigration laws? Do you know anything about the Indian Act, or the "R2P doctorine?" Do you know what the single transfrable vote is? Do you know what the Fair Trade agreements or how they impact us and third world coutries? DO YOU KNOW A FUCKINH THING ABOUT WHAT IS BEING DISCUSSED ON THIS BOARD?? or ARE YOU JUST CONTINUING ON BECAUSE OF THE FACT YOU DONT LIKE ME? Take a cue from the likes of SEAN! I dont support a single fucking thing he does, but he knows how to form debate, he is informed and he aware of the current situation that exists outside the local trailer park, the local bar, and the local rave. I probably have enemies who want to kill me, kick me out of this country, or at the very least cut out my vocal chords becuase of what i support. So you can either listen to what i have to say, and educate yourself, or you keep yourself at the level of "white trash" becuase right now, they way things look, the only higher education that you have is at the end of crack pipe. now run along, drop the angst and pick up a history book
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Nov 30, 05
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and my stance has NOTHING to do with my economic status, which finds me as a owner of a home, a career and most importantly a community of oppressed people across this globe that i care deeply about.
and im going to spell it our for one more time two six: MY OWN BEING IS IRRELEVENT, MY SOLE PURPOSE IS TO EVOKE CHANGE AND HELP SUPPORT THE MOBILIZATION OF SOCIAL MOVEMENTS SO AS TO UNDERTAKE THE MASSIVE TASK OF TAKING BACK SELF DETERMINATION FOR ALL OPPRESSED NATIONS. your on IGNORE, until you start answering my questions! Last edited by fable; Nov 30, 05 at 05:03 AM.
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Nov 30, 05
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Whoah, whoah.
Way too many personal jabs here. Keep in mind that it's just our mental programming clashing here, and that we all have the same basic motives whether we agree on what they are or not. Quote:
For the benefit of anyone else who is actually reading this thread after all of the personal attacks above, I'll go into a short blurb about the fundamental difference here, as I see it. The competing sociopolitical memes here are socialism and capitalism. The fundamental differences between them are that socialism holds that altruism is the highest moral ideal (the good is action taken to benefit anyone other than the self) while capitalism holds that ethical egoism is the highest moral ideal (the good is what actions individuals take to further their own self-interest without harming others). Both agree that man is naturally inclined to be self-serving. The difference is that altruism (and by extension socialism) holds that human nature is evil (in a utilitarian sense, not a deontological one) while ethical egoism (and by extension capitalism) holds that human nature is basically good. The general trend of western culture has been towards the latter of the two poles (ethical egoism) and this mentality has historically been called "liberalism" and is now called "classical liberalism" or more recently "libertarianism". The purpose of government in this world view is to defend the rights of individuals so that they can exercise their own free will to further their own interests without interference from the state and other individuals. The economic arm of this world view is Capitalism. Any individuals who succeed in this kind of society and increase their wealth are seen as oppressors, since the altruist mindset holds that any self-serving action is evil and occurs at the expense of a peer. That's why fable here claims that North American economics are based on oppression, and his opponents claim that it is based on individual liberties which protect the right of the individual to persue his or her self interest without interference. So really, the basic fundamental issue here is altruism vs ethical egoism (aka rational self interest). These two concepts are mutually exclusive (you can't hold that both are true), hence my consternation at 'centrists' who in my view don't understand the philosophy behind their politics properly. Gosh, that ended up longer than I had hoped. Anyhoo, I hope that clears up the fog around the discussion for those who haven't been lucky enough to have formal training in subject at hand. If you're still awake after reading this, you have my thanks!
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Nov 30, 05
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I blame computer science. Every time I hear people debating two high-level concepts I get this unstoppable urge to formulate the hierarchical ordered tree data structures of the two philosophies and to traverse them until I find the concept nodes that are in direct conflict. It's useful in that I tend to get to the heart of the matter quickly, but then again, I suppose engineers don't make very good conversationalists.
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Nov 30, 05
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your on IGNORE, until you start answering my questions! Thanks you just did me a favor and I ain't got to answer anything for you fable. BTW I read plenty of books and I am highly educated both at a street level and most importantly at a post secondary level. See the difference between me and you is that I ain't trying to preach to people how I'm trying to save the world. I like it just the way it is, so I ain't complaining, but if I wanted to make a change I'd start of with making a change in my community, not the entire world. Cause fable let me tell you something you ain't saving anything or anybody. You need to save yourself from your own missunderstood self being. Oh and my opinion on Canada being involved in Iraq is "let's go kick some ass, hurra!"
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Nov 30, 05
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Both in the case of apartheid, women's rights, as well as many many other cases where there was a whole group of peoples discriminated against, simply because of the way they were born, the oppressed have eventually succeeded because they were truly wronged, and many in the group organized efforts, and poured their hearts and souls into gaining rights. However, in the case of the 'current oppressed people's' the difference is the oppression isn't discriminatory on race, gender, or culture. People's are 'oppressed' equally, and they are in the situation they are, because quite simply, they failed at life. They didn't have the drive, or intelligence to make anything of themselves, or perhaps just made a few bad decisions. In any case, generally they are deserving of their situation, through mere incompetence perhaps, and the reason these people will never 'rise against the oppressing elites' is because they don't have the conviction or motivation to fight back; precisely why they are in their current circumstances. The only people fightign for them are close minded 'revolutionaries' probably individuals carrying traits of ODD(oppositional defiance disorder) whom simply do not have the comprehension to realize the intricate scenario's and circumstances of the 'oppressed' people they are fighting for, yet do not fight for themselves. I know my history. If any certain people's were singled out for discrimination I'd be outraged, because I do not believe that to be right. I'm glad our society is making social advances for equal oppurtunity, yet stress the word oppurtunity. Some make huge out of small oppurtunities, others waste large ones.
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Nov 30, 05
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Nonetheless, i thought i should apologise for the 'white trash' remarks, even my own crew isnt none to impressed. It was said out of anger and massive frustration. This is no excuse, there are still remnants of my ego, i have yet to cut the fuck outta my body. The remarks were reactionary and as racist as any slight on non caucasians. Many apologies. If you give even a slight shit, then keep reading, otherwise dont bother. Do you know how Canada is involved in the Iraq war and do you know what part we have played since the Gulf War? I appreciated the comment about starting with our own community, that is actaully somewhat of a difficult thing for some people to understand. I completely agree with this reasoning. Finally, and im serious, when i say this, if you ever want to talk about some of the stuff that ive been mentioning, then gimme a shout, ill even come out to your kneck of the woods. Seriously, and also answer the questions! I want to hear what you think. It would be shitty if we didnt take this opp, to put shit in the past to bed, and work on sharing info and ideas, but if thats the route you wanna go, so be it. shak 604.719.7410
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Nov 30, 05
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If someone doesnt fight for themselves, rather an oppressed group that is in a circumstance far worse then oneself, for the sake of altering dangerous precedent as well as humintarian intent, then they suffer from a disorder? Quote:
Do you not belive that those of middle-eastern decent across Canada are being more oppressed than ever before becuase of current Immigration laws, bills such as C-11, and the current "war on terror? Do you not belive that mass media in the process of network consolidation as well as possible conflit with corporate sponsorship. has become more biased and one sided then ever before in Canadian history. Do you not belive that actions taken against the working people of various unions over the last few years isnt for the sole purpose of breaking unions and thus being able to slash rights and regulations that the Unions have worked so hard for? Was the sitautions with the TWU.BCTF, CMG, and HEU, the actions of lazy, or undirected civilianz who were dissalusioned, or ignorant of "how good they have it?" Do you see no link between current actions taken abroad in the world by Canadian government and what is happening at home? Id appreciate if you answered the questions, and i would suggest you reavulate the comment you made about how "you know your history" I would also suggest hangin out with your "socialist" mom a bit more.
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Nov 30, 05
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ahh my comp keeps freezing. 3rd times a charm? atleast this time i wrote it out in notepad, so if it freezes, I can just copy/paste... alot shorter this time though.
The native situation is a complicated one. The way I see it, is the current situation is a an action and reaction that continues back and forth in the same pattern. natives ARE given alot(no taxes, treaty cheques, free education etc) and the general population resents it. These feelings of resent evolve into jealousy, bitterness, and hatred towards the native population. This festers into general racism, and we see the results with actions such as police brutality, and employer discrimination. Further, the situation natives are in right now eliminates motivation and drive for finacnial success in most cases, due to the fact they are given everythign needed to survive. In effect, by giving them too much, we are oppressing them. facts are the native population has the highest per capitas in suicide rate, infant mortality, children born with FAS (fetal alchohal syndrom), drug and alchohal abuse, unemployment, crime rate, and aids. This is not due to any racial disadvantages, however because of the way society both pampers, and oppresses them. The only solution in my opinion, is to dissolve all treaty argreements, eliminate all reserves, and integrate the native population into ther est of society. By taking away all of their 'advantages' any reasons for bitterness will in time dissolve, as well, because society will in effect 'stop giving them a fish every day to eat' for the most part, they will 'learn to fish for themselves' and all other topics of discrimination will in time, dissapear. yes, I agree(racism towards middle eastern descent) yes, I agree(media...) yes, I agree, and I am glad for it. Unions served a purpose at the turn of the century, however I believe they have gone too far. Unions today are self serving, and promote lazyness amongst their workers. Union members who work harder than required are scorned, and all in all it's ruining our free market economy. Union's need to be knocked down a couple of pegs, we need to get back to where workers are rewarded for extra efforts, and promoted because of them, not scorned and hated amongst their co workers for raising the standard.
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Nov 30, 05
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If we admit that there are major problems in the communites of Indegenous people, with strong connections to a history of genocide, and oppression, then offering thigs as free University doesnt mean anything. In other countries University if free for everyone. But your idea about oppressing by "giving" is interesting, but id rather call it manipulation, and artifically division being injected into the society by the government and connected business. Quote:
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I think perhaps there should be a distinction drawn between rankin file members and the bearacracy that is union leadership.....wait a minute there is! So with understanding this, i think there should be a focus on eliminating the corrupt leadership with strong ties with governmental policy. Rights to jon security, an OT after 8/40 hrs are just the nost surface level of rights that the masses were fought for by unions. At the core UNIONS ARE THE MOBILIZATION AND COMMUNITY OF THE GENERAL MASSES IN ORDER TO SHOW SOLIDARITY AND TO ENACT RIGHTS AND DEMANDS, UNDER AN AN OPPRESSIVE GOVERNMENT SEAKING ONLY PROFIT. I fully admit there a systamatic issues at hand with the unions, but i ask why would we dissolve one of the few socio-economic movements and organized bodies that we have to help make sure we can uphold certain working conditions???
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Nov 30, 05
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Why should the natives have ANY claim to ANYTHING in Canada over the average citizen? They lost, these treaty's and reserves are a complete mockery. Where else in the wrold do you see this happen? genocide, oppression, etc by an outside force... let's look at say, the ukrainians... Stalin caused famines, and butchered them. Does Russia pay retributuions to the Ukrainian people for his actions? I know, let's just GIVE the natives ALL of their land back, I mean, they were here first, right? Seems logical, and I mean, it worked out so well with Israel!
As for Unions, they shouldn't be completely dissolved, just deflated. I for one would never, ever ever ever work for or support a union. They have gone way too far. Reralistically, I would never work for anything aside form commission, or straight up income provided by my own bussiness, but that's aside the point. Unions have fought and successfully established labour laws for the workign class, however, recently they have become corrupt, arrogant, and just straight upinsane for the most part. In alot of cases the demands they make would put their employters out of bussiness, or cause such a shortage in profits the employer would have no choice but to lay off large portions of the union itself. It needs to be stopped before all unions are demanding 30/hr to sit on a chair, for their workers to be given 3 day weekends, and to work only 6 hrs a day. LOL.
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Nov 30, 05
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hmm
I agree. The Natives are being coddled to death. They all drive this years truck on roads that go nowhere. I doubt this is done intentionaly by our government. It's just that our government programs for deadling with natives are ineffectual and misguided. I recently read that 80% of Treaty money goes straight to the chief and his band council with little or no accountatbility. Recent native Chiefs who expressed a desire to audit the books or restore law and order to their tribes have had their houses burnt down, been locked out of their office by the council ecte ect. It almost seems like the government is bankrolling mid level native gangsters (ie councils and chiefs). Of course cleaning this up would never accur to a Canadian government. They're far to terrified of being called racist or bigoted. So I guess just let the natives stew, it's far easier than whipping them into shape. And as far as oppression goes, I'd say our natives had a walk in the park dealing witht the Crown compared to the natives who had the unfortunate joy of dealing with the Americans.
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Nov 30, 05
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People should not be held accountable for the wrongs committed by their anscestors. That's what individual rights is all about.
In Canada today we have a class discrimination based on race caused entirely by the government. The second class citizens (ethnically non-aboriginals) have the fruits of their labours forcibly taken away by the government and given to the first class citizens (the ethnic aboriginals). Furthermore these first class citizens are granted exclusive property at the expense of everyone else, without having to earn it. They are given (again, at the expense of everyone else and by way of the government's use of force) exclusive benefits for government jobs, education, and other things. The French and English revolutions (particularly the French) occurred precisely to eliminate this kind of government-sanctioned class structure (the Aristocratic class being granted special privileges by the state). Unfortunately it seems that our government hasn't been paying attention to its history. Any society that prostrates and bleeds itself before the group that was defeated by its anscestors is horribly confused and is living in the past. The racism towards aboriginals is a direct consequence of everyone else being discriminated against by the government. Who is going to hire a status indian when, if any contract dispute arises, the status indian is almost guaranteed to win the court case despite evidence against them? I've talked to a few older professionals who will NOT hire status indians for their own protection. So again, we've got 'group rights' causing problems in our society which is based on 'individual rights'. The two types do not and cannot function together without one destroying the other. "In Canada, everyone is equal before the law.... UNLESS you're of so and so race." It just doesn't work. Last edited by FlorpIncarnate; Nov 30, 05 at 05:29 PM.
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Nov 30, 05
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Alex: you make some good points. I guess what I see as the next popular movement is protection of environment. Simply put we're on a crash course with environmental disaster. You think the disaster in New Orleans would be a wake up call to this?
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Nov 30, 05
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I must admit that I haven't read all of the responses in this thread but I did notice people talking about government funded research. SEAN mentioned that it's better to give tax breaks to fund research than the government actually spending the money. I would argue though that both have their merits. As SEAN listed the benefits of private research I'll mention the benefits of public funded research and the draw backs of private research. To narrow it down I'll look at medical research as an example. Within the private sector vastly greater amounts of money are spent researching new antibiotics and so on. However nearly every major breakthrough that has cured a disease has come from the public sector. The reason being is that private research largely targets ongoing conditions. If they create a drug that is meant to cure a fatal disease the customer (as they are to the private sector) either gets better or dies and are no longer a customer. They would much rather create a drug that will be needed on an ongoing basis, such a Ritalin, Viagra or such. Publicly funded research allows for pure science, where scientists can simply experiment to try and find new knowledge. Further I would argue that an effective compromise can often be met by funding private companies to research specific problems. This is widely practiced in Australia and has lead to them becoming one of the World leaders in medial science.
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Nov 30, 05
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SEAN: England did come to power in part as you mentioned through their application of technology. They also came to power through colonialism. They used colonialism to open markets for their industries and protectionism to allow their industries to develop. In short it was basically very simple, until an industry was established enough to compete with the rest of the World they wouldn't allow any such product to be imported. While at the same time they demanded access to everyone else's markets. If access wasn't granted they went to war (anyone remember the Opium Wars?). Colonies were the source of the raw resources and the destination of the finished product, leaving the majority of the wealth and skills generated in England. The US also followed suit in this practice.
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Nov 30, 05
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sorry to but in, just haveing a history flashback, got my exams soon, this thread is a killer help
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Nov 30, 05
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But. The Vikings were the first Whites here. They called the Indians "Skralings" and had many battles with them. The Indians fended off the Vikings and forced them out back to Iceland.
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Nov 30, 05
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Nov 30, 05
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