Ed Rush & Optical - Chameleon (OH. MY. FUCK.)

[mekim]

Originally Posted by mux

personally, I think if you're downloading music to listen to, you're in the green. if you download music to spin out for other people, you're being an asshole.

the concept of "theft" of "intellectual property" needs an overhaul. it's fine right now when we're dealing with music and books and images. but what about what's going on in the farming community, where people own the copyrights on strains of wheat and corn, and if you grow a crop of wheat and keep some of it to seed your fields next year (like farmers have been doing since we started walking upright), you're stealing from Monsanto????

same laws as those that apply to MP3s. at some point we need to realize that those laws are outdated and cannot possibly apply to all cases. fair use is fair use.

you sound like you just chewed up a bunch of the popular slashdot opinions and puked them out into this.

[mux]

Originally Posted by mekim

you sound like you just chewed up a bunch of the popular slashdot opinions and puked them out into this.

heh, cool. I guess developing your own point of view doesn't count if anyone's ever had the same opinion before.

how very emo.

[mapleleaf4ever]

Can't we all just get along? :p

[Wood]

Originally Posted by mux

I think music is something that should be shared freely for non-commercial use.

I think most musicians agree with me on this.

ummm... no. i think most musicians would wholeheartedly disagree with you there. not saying we're all in it for the money, but there are costs involved in recording & releasing music. there could be no independant labels if no one paid for music. no one could produce CDs or vinyl, music would only be available on the internet. you might like that idea, to me it's a fucking disgrace.

i've got 2 records out on a label i'm involved with, and i've been paid for neither. In fact, the label still hasn't quite re-couped for the second one yet. Buti'm happy with how things are going because sales are good for a relatively unknown label, and we're developing a fan base all over the globe. If no one paid for music we wouldn't be putting out any more records, period. has nothing to do with us being greedy, we just don't have a lot of money to keep throwing things out there with no hope of breaking even. The same could be said for many of my friends who run labels. as a techno guy you proabaly are familiar with Mathew Jonson of Wagon Repair, or Rennie Foster of Futago Technologies... do you think these guys approve of people stealing their music, even if it's just for listening? the answer is no.

[matéo]

I don't really have much of an opinion but I do have a couple questions.

When it comes to older tunes I try to hunt down a used cd and encode it to mp3. Is this unethical?

Most things I have downloaded in the past are tunes I would never buy. I hear a cool tune and I think to myself I wonder what the cd sounds like. I download the cd listen to it for a month, wait for everyone else to listen to it, big the artist up, then try and make it to their show when they come here. Is that really wrong? It was never my intention to hear the band let alone buy their cd, so aren't I doing them a favour buy promoting their sound and supporting them live in person?

Ok lets take another route (wood/soo just using you as an example) Say I really liked a M.I.A track I previewed on amazon. I like a couple tracks on it and I'm thinking of purchasing the cd. All of a sudden I stumble upon a free mix cd by wood and soo and it has those really good M.I.A tracks that were on her cd. What this? A remix? Thats way better than the original. Fuck Amazon I'm just going to download this mix. That way I have both M.I.A tracks for FREE and 60 more minutes of a bunch of good tunes. I'm not singling out wood or soo b/c theres a ton of djs who put out mix cds including myself, just playing the devils advocate.

Disclaimer: As a dj I purchase everything I play as a listener it varies.

[Wood]

i think of promo mixes sort of like radio, if you hear something on there & and that's enough for you, then there should be no obligation to go out & buy it. but if there's track on there you just have to have, whether for listening or DJing or whatever, just buy it! it's so easy nowadays, you don't even have to purchase the whole album if you don't want to. just spend a dollar or two to get the mp3. or subscribe to one of many services that provide unlimited streams & downloads for a flat monthly fee (i use Virgin Digital).

it's great to talk stuff up to your friends and spread the word on stuff you like, but that doesn't get you off the hook for stealing it. if you didn't pay for it, why should anyone that you put on to it? if you like an album or single and want to own it, it's your responsibility to pick up the bill. if you don't, you're robbing the artist and their label, straight up. you go to a show, you're paying for the show; you buy a t-shirt, you're paying for the t-shirt. neither one entitles you to a free album.

[mux]

Originally Posted by Wood

ummm... no. i think most musicians would wholeheartedly disagree with you there. not saying we're all in it for the money, but there are costs involved in recording & releasing music. there could be no independant labels if no one paid for music. no one could produce CDs or vinyl, music would only be available on the internet. you might like that idea, to me it's a fucking disgrace.

You make excellent and valid points, and I respect your opinion and position as both a prominant figure in the vinyl sales arena and a published musician. I'mma spend some time playing Devil's Advocate here, purely for the sake of it being Friday and a good debate is always welcome. :)

See, my problem with the whole situation is - if you have a carrot, and I steal it from you, I have a carrot and you do not. YOU ARE CARROTLESS.

If you have an MP3, and I steal it from you, you still have your MP3. Hell, I can steal it again and again, and the basic fact is you still have your carrot.

I think it's worth drawing a line between people selling RECORDS and people selling music. If I buy your record, do I now own your song, or do I just own the piece of vinyl and the right to play it? If I buy your music on the internet, what have I purchased, exactly? I'm not big on the buying and selling of rights.

I fully support your endeavors, but I'm not a DJ and I don't even own a record player. You're stating that you feel stealing music is wrong because it costs so much to put out a vinyl record that the label can barely recoup their costs for production and distribution. But, see, I've never been in that market. I don't care about the vinyl the label uses, or the sleeve art, or the shipping they're paying for. I've probably not even been in the record stores since the records were released. I'm not a loss of potential profits, but I am a potential fan, someone who'll go to your show, pay $8 cover and give you $10 for a mix CD. Hell, if I like the show I'll probably buy you a beer too. There are *far* more people like me then there are potential buyers of vinyl, and I hope sooner or later record labels start to realize that.

If you were speaking *purely* as an artist, not as a businessman - are you saying that you don't want me to listen to your music because I don't fall into your intended economic target market? Is the music really entirely about the sales of records?

PS: might see you tonight at Clove

[Wood]

^the carrot argument is a good one, and i do see a line between theft of supposed 'intellectual property' and actual, physical property. BUT... i still don't think it justifies downloading for free.

if you don't want the vinyl that's fine - but most music can be purchased in soft format nowadays (ours will be soon) and if you can't shell out a measly dollar or two... then no, i don't want you to own it. you can still hear it on mixtapes, internet or satallite radio, or at the club. As a label, we're catering to the vinyl market, so i'm sure you can understand why we don't want our ability to release vinyl to be jeapordized by a bunch of people who don't care about it in the first place.

ANYWAYS... yeah. hope we see ya tonight.

[Neighbour]

people have no trouble shelling out for entertainment they can't find for free, so why can't musicians who frankly slave for their work expect compensation for repeated enjoyment of a recorded work?