Thoughts On Afganistan...

[sidekick]

wait wait wait fable back up...you will buy me coffee if i come to a demonstration?

[fable]

Originally Posted by SEAN!

the idea of universial human rights and self determination is imperialist in itself as it is a product of western ideological beliefs, stemming from the european enlightenment. as such this set of ideas is ethnocentric and our impossition of the idea of human rights upon the afghan and non-western people is in itself imperialism in the same vein as the 'white man's burden' was justification for the intial colonization of central asia.

its great to turn people's rhetoric against them when they dont know what they are talking about.

Come on mate, you took most of that off the Wikipedia definition. I've heard almost the very same set of prose in person from a rapant white liberal women accusing me of wanting all women to wear Burkahs.

Nonetheless I do agree with the sentiment about Univeral Human Rights. The phrase used by imperialist governments has historically and currently played a significant role in trying to win support for any number of military invasions from the respective masses. Darfur is a prime example -

GENOCIDE! GENOCIDE!!! We need to intervene!!! ....(and of course wrest control of oil resources from China while we are there, and intimidate France who is hanging out in Chad, but thats secondary, we care about the PEOPLE! ITS ALL ABOUT THE PEOPLE!

Rest assured my favorite little economist with far too many textbooks and not enough sense, that when Im talking about Human Rights or Self Determination, the foremost point I am trying to convey is the most simple and obvious rights. Such as not being carpet bombed or shot at with depleted uranium.

When I comes to Imperialism, I ignore discussion about 'old' or 'new' and definetly stay away from "ethnocentric" I stick with what my simpleton-extrmist-radical-conspiracist-tinfoil hat wearing heart and mind can handle and thats the plain spoken introductory explanation that Lenin gave, being:

imperialism is the monopoly stage of capitalism

But I know you sure love your "nuances" and "subtleties" so maybe this is more to your liking:

Imperialism emerged as the development and direct continuation of the fundamental characteristics of capitalism in general. But capitalism only became capitalist imperialism at a definite and very high stage of its development, when certain of its fundamental characteristics began to change into their opposites, when the features of the epoch of transition from capitalism to a higher social and economic system had taken shape and revealed themselves in all spheres. Economically, the main thing in this process is the displacement of capitalist free competition by capitalist monopoly. Free competition is the basic feature of capitalism, and of commodity production generally; monopoly is the exact opposite of free competition, but we have seen the latter being transformed into monopoly before our eyes, creating large-scale industry and forcing out small industry, replacing large-scale by still larger-scale industry, and carrying concentration of production and capital to the point where out of it has grown and is growing monopoly: cartels, syndicates and trusts, and merging with them, the capital of a dozen or so banks, which manipulate thousands of millions. At the same time the monopolies, which have grown out of free competition, do not eliminate the latter, but exist above it and alongside it, and thereby give rise to a number of very acute, intense antagonisms, frictions and conflicts. Monopoly is the transition from capitalism to a higher system.

Although I used quotes, the words may not be entirely correct, as my simple brain is not yet at a point where I can quote Lenin, or any economic theory verbatim. My apologies.

[fable]

Originally Posted by sidekick

wait wait wait fable back up...you will buy me coffee if i come to a demonstration?

Sorry Jake, Im only apt to buy coffee for someone who I believed was useful. But next time I need to launch a young social democrats club you'll be the first person I call.

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by fable

Sorry Jake, Im only apt to buy coffee for someone who I believed was useful. But next time I need to launch a young social democrats club you'll be the first person I call.

so...no coffee?

[fable]

Originally Posted by sidekick

so...no coffee?

I pegged you more as a warm milk and dalai lama kind guy.

[.anya]

Fable, it's really deplorable that you choose to label people as useful or not. You're probably missing out on a lot of people that way, which would explain why your views are really really narrow (or is the word I'm looking for revolutionary? visionary? enlightened?).

and 'simple and obvious rights' are neither simple nor obvious. advocates of natural human rights and acquired human rights both have really strong arguments. Not everyone agrees that you have entitlements simply by virtue of the fact that you are human. It's an axiom; some choose to believe it, some don't.

[fable]

Originally Posted by .anya

Fable, it's really deplorable that you choose to label people as useful or not. You're probably missing out on a lot of people that way, which would explain why your views are really really narrow (or is the word I'm looking for revolutionary? visionary? enlightened?).

and 'simple and obvious rights' are neither simple nor obvious. advocates of natural human rights and acquired human rights both have really strong arguments. Not everyone agrees that you have entitlements simply by virtue of the fact that you are human. It's an axiom; some choose to believe it, some don't.

The part about "useful" was completely sarcastic and a point which Im positive that jake picked up on, as his comment was in the same line.

What about my idea of Human rights do you not believe in? Do you think carpet bombing is acceptable? Or do you buy the line that various invasions such as Iraq or Afghanistan were because the US or Canadian government really cared about "bringing democracy" or fighting for "womens rights?"

[fable]

It was the bit about the Sudan that got you upset, as Im thinking at this moment you believe that a military force SHOULD be invading Darfur?

Theres far more than "human rights" dictating the drive for invading Darfur.

Read the article on Sudan:
http://www.firethistime.net/FTTV37web.html

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by fable

I pegged you more as a warm milk and dalai lama kind guy.

unless the warm milk is IN the coffee, it's a no go.

and yes, the sarcasm was picked up on. i think we have an understanding, don't we? we may not agree all the time, but there's respect.

now, off to drink my morning coffee.

[SEAN!]

Originally Posted by fable

Come on mate, you took most of that off the Wikipedia definition. I've heard almost the very same set of prose in person from a rapant white liberal women accusing me of wanting all women to wear Burkahs.

Nonetheless I do agree with the sentiment about Univeral Human Rights. The phrase used by imperialist governments has historically and currently played a significant role in trying to win support for any number of military invasions from the respective masses. Darfur is a prime example -

GENOCIDE! GENOCIDE!!! We need to intervene!!! ....(and of course wrest control of oil resources from China while we are there, and intimidate France who is hanging out in Chad, but thats secondary, we care about the PEOPLE! ITS ALL ABOUT THE PEOPLE!

Rest assured my favorite little economist with far too many textbooks and not enough sense, that when Im talking about Human Rights or Self Determination, the foremost point I am trying to convey is the most simple and obvious rights. Such as not being carpet bombed or shot at with depleted uranium.

When I comes to Imperialism, I ignore discussion about 'old' or 'new' and definetly stay away from "ethnocentric" I stick with what my simpleton-extrmist-radical-conspiracist-tinfoil hat wearing heart and mind can handle and thats the plain spoken introductory explanation that Lenin gave, being:



But I know you sure love your "nuances" and "subtleties" so maybe this is more to your liking:



Although I used quotes, the words may not be entirely correct, as my simple brain is not yet at a point where I can quote Lenin, or any economic theory verbatim. My apologies.

dude, not only do you not know what Im talking about, you are also an asshole.

p.s. do you think the persian invasion of afghanistan and the subsequent conquest of all of central asia by arabic muslims 1500 years ago was an act of imperialism or is it ok because it wasnt white westernized peopler doing it. how about what the pashtus were doing to the hazaras 50 years ago. dude you're on crack what you broadly define as imperialism has been happening for ten thousand years.

[esoter1c]

Originally Posted by SEAN!

dude, not only do you not know what Im talking about, you are also an asshole.

p.s. do you think the persian invasion of afghanistan and the subsequent conquest of all of central asia by arabic muslims 1500 years ago was an act of imperialism or is it ok because it wasnt white westernized peopler doing it. how about what the pashtus were doing to the hazaras 50 years ago. dude you're on crack what you broadly define as imperialism has been happening for ten thousand years.

WTF !?

I agree with Sean! ?

Now I've seen it all.

[SEAN!]

Originally Posted by 3507321C

WTF !?

I agree with Sean! ?

Now I've seen it all.

dude, it happens.

[SmokeOne]

First up Fable you defiantly have a one track mind..to make people wamnt to listen to your rants and your values.Aparently other peole cant have a different view on whats going on except your views. Isnt that kinda like a communist(you can only view the world like me). All the guy was trying to do is to see if we supported him and our troops in Afganastan. Which probably most of the popultaion does. I really cant believe that someone is as narrow minded about the war as you..there is definatly alot of shit that you have no idea about and how things are run in the militaly..I think you should take up Noah's offer and go there and see for your self how and why we are doing things the way we are. My judgment is not cluoded by what you call government propaganga..my judgment is how I do believe that what we are doing(the Canadian troops) is defiantly worth the cause..the world doesnt hate the canadians why..cause we were there for support and mostly infastructure work ie. roads, water, opening schools, giving women their rights back, training for the afgan troops and police. If that isnt a hunmanatarian mission I dont know what is. Now that the Canadian forces have gone into a more combat roll in afganastan..yes there will be blood shed..but fuck..what war doesnt..there was a hell of alot of bloodshed even befor the troops got there..and it would have continued..is that what you support..Cause I am shure 90% of the worlds population doesnt..I think that out votes your little gattering if wack jobs.

As for pickiting outfront of training centres..thats ruff bud..give your head a shake..that aint gonna change nothing..keep it in your own circle jeark of friends..if you beleieve in one thing then thats fine..but dont go about throwing all your big words arround like you are some sort of debate god..i know I dont give a shit..and I am shure others dont either. if you want to have a debate about this then start your own thread.

Noah..Good on you and I definatly support anything you guys do over there. War is a hard thing to understand but as long as you are there for your own values..then I respect that.

Keep your head up bro. And Thanks again

[Noah]

^^ Thanx.

Im not going to say anything nasty. I just hope it dosnt take an act to Canadian soil for some people to turn there thinking around.

Today, I ate in the base mess. Not unlike any other day. But today there were other soldiers in tans. They are leaving tonight as the advance party for the tour im on, and all missing christmas to serve. I do wish them well.

[esoter1c]

Originally Posted by Noah

I just hope it dosnt take an act to Canadian soil for some people to turn there thinking around.

Sure worked for the Americans.

I'm sure it's gonna work for us.

[fable]

Originally Posted by SEAN!

dude, not only do you not know what Im talking about, you are also an asshole.

p.s. do you think the persian invasion of afghanistan and the subsequent conquest of all of central asia by arabic muslims 1500 years ago was an act of imperialism or is it ok because it wasnt white westernized peopler doing it. how about what the pashtus were doing to the hazaras 50 years ago. dude you're on crack what you broadly define as imperialism has been happening for ten thousand years.

What are YOU going on about? Do you suggest that because it has happened in the past over and over again, that we shouldnt fight against it? Or are you saying that this cycle of conquest is natural and therefor we join in with maple leafs unfurled, and assault rifles held high?

You keep bringing up abstract points and confuse the issue. You are in love with your own theoretical or irrelevent fact posturing, and deviate so far from the core issue, that im sure you got lost somewhere in the vicinity of your bowels while your head was stuffed up your own ass. The reasons and sentiment behind the Government calls for war and occupation of third world countries and the poor and marginalized in our own countries is proven time and time again to the point of blatant transperancy. You cant argue the realities and objective conditions so instead you bring confusing parallels and insolvent reasoning. Quit wasting your breadth and focus on your alarming lack of understanding your environment.

[fable]

Originally Posted by SmokeOne

First up Fable you defiantly have a one track mind..to make people wamnt to listen to your rants and your values.Aparently other peole cant have a different view on whats going on except your views. Isnt that kinda like a communist(you can only view the world like me). All the guy was trying to do is to see if we supported him and our troops in Afganastan. Which probably most of the popultaion does. I really cant believe that someone is as narrow minded about the war as you..there is definatly alot of shit that you have no idea about and how things are run in the militaly..I think you should take up Noah's offer and go there and see for your self how and why we are doing things the way we are. My judgment is not cluoded by what you call government propaganga..my judgment is how I do believe that what we are doing(the Canadian troops) is defiantly worth the cause..the world doesnt hate the canadians why..cause we were there for support and mostly infastructure work ie. roads, water, opening schools, giving women their rights back, training for the afgan troops and police. If that isnt a hunmanatarian mission I dont know what is. Now that the Canadian forces have gone into a more combat roll in afganastan..yes there will be blood shed..but fuck..what war doesnt..there was a hell of alot of bloodshed even befor the troops got there..and it would have continued..is that what you support..Cause I am shure 90% of the worlds population doesnt..I think that out votes your little gattering if wack jobs.

As for pickiting outfront of training centres..thats ruff bud..give your head a shake..that aint gonna change nothing..keep it in your own circle jeark of friends..if you beleieve in one thing then thats fine..but dont go about throwing all your big words arround like you are some sort of debate god..i know I dont give a shit..and I am shure others dont either. if you want to have a debate about this then start your own thread.

Noah..Good on you and I definatly support anything you guys do over there. War is a hard thing to understand but as long as you are there for your own values..then I respect that.

Keep your head up bro. And Thanks again

Blind nationalism, ego, and an ignorance to the degredation of the human condition of people of Afghanistan or any third world country for that matter under occupation, doesnt make for any real dialogue. The antiwar movement is not a fringe peripherary movement, nor is it small. Its comprised of the entire spectrum of orginizations from womens groups to trade unions.

Buck up smoke, this movement is here to stay. And when the death count of Canadian soldiers reaches 44...hundred the nature of your baseless and hallow remarks, and calls of communism will be just as irrelevent as it is now. You can talk about how "war is tough" all you want, the simple fact is that the occupations of Iraq, Afghanistan, soon to be Sudan are all capitalist-centric/ economically driven. The Canadian army is built on an economic draft, and the general populace is being lied to consistantly.

If you want to challenge me on anything specific, than be more specific, Ill gladly engage you, it would be even better if it was in person. Because you can call me all the names you want, but Im armed with the frustration and anger of people who have had everything taken from them, and have had enought.

Ill use the Iraqi resistance as an example. Built from the very 300 000 state employees laid off with no assistance by the Paul Bremmer administration and facing 2 million externally displaced refugees, 400 000 internally displaced refugees, 600 000 dead, and some of the worst living conditions on this planet, they are able to fight back the most powerful army in the world - WHY???

The very same struggle is being waged on our own home turf by Indigenous peoples, immigrants, women, students and visible minorities. It is being waged by internationalists, trade unions, veterans groups and even environmentalists. Are they all crazy wack jobs?

One last thing, the war in Afghanistan is NOT supported by most canadians, as the last two national polls reported 55% and 65% respectively were AGAINST the occupation.

Before you open up your mouth again, come with some more facts and less nationalism.

[fable]

Originally Posted by sidekick

unless the warm milk is IN the coffee, it's a no go.

and yes, the sarcasm was picked up on. i think we have an understanding, don't we? we may not agree all the time, but there's respect.

now, off to drink my morning coffee.

Much respect mate.

[SEAN!]

there are a few dozen reliable metrics i could prove you wrong on, but whats the point you'd just write another 6 paragraph response to me claiming i was a tool of the 'system' and that i need to get out on the streets and protest over every percieved injustice in order to be a decent human being. while any attempt i make to show that the very basis of your indignation is intellectualy suspect goes right over your head.

[SmokeOne]

Get it straight WE ARE NOT OCCUPING Afghanastan. We are There in support. If thats what you think then you need to get your facts straight. I am shure Noah will agree with me in that regard..adn so will all of the soilders over there and in canada. Face it you have a one track mind and no opoinion is right but yours..that is a communist value..think about it..

[SmokeOne]

Originally Posted by SEAN!

there are a few dozen reliable metrics i could prove you wrong on, but whats the point you'd just write another 6 paragraph response to me claiming i was a tool of the 'system' and that i need to get out on the streets and protest over every percieved injustice in order to be a decent human being. while any attempt i make to show that the very basis of your indignation is intellectualy suspect goes right over your head.

Exactly

[Bentley]

how does it go smokeone? "One of this things is not like the other....."

[SmokeOne]

Im not here for a debat about this anyway(fable).if thats all that you have in your life is a debate..man you are missing out. All I was here to state is that we should support our soilders no matter what the situation is..they are overther getting shot at and bobmed every day while we all sit here nice and warm and safe at home. Thast all this subject was susposed to be about..do we support our troops and what they are doing..Any ignorant fool that says no should be drug out on the street and stoned..is not the soilders its the government..dont blame the soilders ever.

[esoter1c]

Originally Posted by SmokeOne

Im not here for a debat about this anyway(fable).if thats all that you have in your life is a debate..man you are missing out. All I was here to state is that we should support our soilders no matter what the situation is..they are overther getting shot at and bobmed every day while we all sit here nice and warm and safe at home. Thast all this subject was susposed to be about..do we support our troops and what they are doing..Any ignorant fool that says no should be drug out on the street and stoned..is not the soilders its the government..dont blame the soilders ever.

I am stoned.

[fable]

Originally Posted by SEAN!

there are a few dozen reliable metrics i could prove you wrong on, but whats the point you'd just write another 6 paragraph response to me claiming i was a tool of the 'system' and that i need to get out on the streets and protest over every percieved injustice in order to be a decent human being. while any attempt i make to show that the very basis of your indignation is intellectualy suspect goes right over your head.

Prove what wrong? That occupation is a good thing, or my belief that you are deaf dumb and blind?