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Dec 08, 06
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Back up your argument, but before you do that, present your argument. 
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Dec 08, 06
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Let me guess, they are all taliban who detest us "for our freedoms" or like the racist and war mongering General Rick Hillier stated "they are all murderous scumbags and killers" Get a clue, kid. Soldiers have a choice to go fight, an afghan doesnt. Leave your heroic notions about peacekeeping Canada alone. This country is built on residential schools, developing apartheid and destroying/assimilating millions of Indigenous lives. The war on marginalized people in Canada is the same abroad. Start making some connections and drop the abstract naivety. Or be like SEAN! and quote teaching verbatim from his collegiate text books, talk about your economic prowess and perhaps even draw a diagram or two.
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Dec 08, 06
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And one more thing smoke, please do not accuse me of not supporting my troops ever again. You forget that Canadian soldiers, and most soldiers in history come from the lowest economic levels in society and often represent marginalized layers of people. Call it an economic draft if you would. In this day and age, with skyrocketing tuition and the broadening economic gap, more and more young intelligent people are being exploited and inadvertantly support a fucked up government by joining the military in a bid to survive without questioning the core of government orders.
And so I love my "brothers and sisters" in canadian digi cammo more than you will ever fucking understand, and its the very reason why I WANT THEM TO COME HOME! They are used as pawns to kill my OTHER "brothers and sisters" in Afghanistan. Canadian soldiers dont make the orders, they follow them, but if they dont have the presence of mind and courage to question them, then they are being infinetly selfish and ignorant, and I cannot support them, just because they are "canadian" I do not care about someones nationality, I only care if they are acting like a real human and fight for the rights of other humans against the true oppressive structures and systemic oppression in this world. If they dont, they are the enemy, pure and simple. If you care to further throw in weak jabs, and then back off and say you dont want to debate, than leave this conversation. Or lets meet up in person and continue this discussion. Im sure you are arguing from a good place, with a good heart, but what you think you are supporting is an illusion and a lie. shak check out this site http://www.firethistime.net You can hurl as many punches as you want, Im game, but read the last several issues, specifically on Afghanistan, Iraq and on Indegenous struggle at home. Then lets take our discussion to a better place than the back and forth we are currently going on. I respect your care about your soldiers, but I do not respect the system they represent.
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Dec 08, 06
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K well..thats all that noah was wondering..if you support the troops..if you do then that all the argument is about..you didnt make it clear you supported the soilders. If you do then ..thats all i was getting at..support them yes..if you dont support the government and its hidden objectives..thats a different topic.
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Dec 08, 06
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Question, research, develop, act, asses, reestablish, test, asses, devise, and lead. Quit shooting from the hip and THINK. Read the articles in the site I suggested too.
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Dec 09, 06
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Fable
Have you hugged your tree today?
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Dec 10, 06
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Don't really care to get my feet wet here 'cause everyone has an opinion on this but I will make a few points.
1. Any civilized discussion on these matters is paramount on the discourse being dispassionate, methodical, and without cynicism. 2. War begets war. There is a difference between fighting for your country and fighting for your government. 3. Empires rise and fall just as the sun rises and sets. 4. Everyone is accountable. 5. War itself is a war of attrition on the free will of the individual (the opposite being a revolution). I know this sounds very youth radical, but it really has always has been a class war. Anyone know the exception to the rule?
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Dec 10, 06
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ez Last edited by fable; Dec 10, 06 at 01:42 PM.
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Dec 10, 06
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Dec 10, 06
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Hey Fable?
Whens the next peace rally? You guys gunna go chain yourself to some trees next?
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Dec 10, 06
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Dec 11, 06
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I feel no pride, superiority, or self importance knowing what I know and seeing what I have seen. There is only anger, frustration and sadness. This has been tempered by the amazing love and courage I have witnessed in people who struggle to survive on a daily basis, and the ONLY reason why I am alive, choosing to support such struggle. Graphic Art keeps me sane, and a fledgling relationship with my family keeps me grounded. They keep me strong enough to help perpetuate the movement in which has given me hope. The people close to me and who I consider my comrades, and the stories of millions who fight everyday with nothing more than such hope, are everything. Your bullshit labels, and witty banter are nothing but dust and decay. I dont need the type of credibility that makes me something more than I am in your eyes. I am no one special. When a 70 year old Palestinian grandmother blows herself up and some Israeli soldiers with her in a bid to disrupt an Israel jetfighters target package (a delapidated shack packed full of impoverished Palestinian young) When a Iraqi father who was laid off with no help, and then had his entire house with his entire family carpet bombed and watched his daughter run out of the house with her skin melting off her frame from white phosphorous When a young Indigenous Secwepmc boy watches his native burial land get torn up for another bunny hill When a Haitian women living in the poorest ghetto this side of the Western hemisphere watches three UN strikeforces blitz into her tent/shack and shoot her pregnant sister and husband ..my ego turns to fucking ash, and your insults with them. Last edited by fable; Dec 11, 06 at 01:52 AM.
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Dec 11, 06
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Fable has every right to voice his opinion on the war, infact, everybody does. This doesn't make him a smelly hippy. I'm not sure if you've noticed, but people that come from just about every age, income, gender, ethnicity, race and religion oppose the war. You don't think social protest does shit? How do you think America eventually pulled out of Vietnam (I'll give you a hint, it had something do to with the fact that the war was largely unpopular among Americans.)? How did black people in North America gain the same rights as everyone else? How about women? Workers? If you don't agree with him, that's fine, but if you really want to disagree try posting something intelligent. It is possible to support your troops and oppose the war. I don't think that anybody that opposes the war doesn't have value for people that choose to go overseas knowing the risks involved in being there. Everyone has respect for those who risk their lives day in and day out for their job.
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Dec 11, 06
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Dec 11, 06
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Dec 11, 06
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What I appreciated about this thread is that there are a lot of differing viewpoints put forward and that for the most part, it's a very mature and well behaved discussion. If you have a point to make, do it. I think that saying things like you're some kind of bitter old war vet trying to poke fun at someone for opposing the war and saying why isn't really contributing to the discussion as it has been going so far. Like I said, I think it is absolutely possible to support the troops but not the war. I don't think that Fable means any soldier any disrespect in his views. :) on another note, here's an interesting story: OTTAWA -- The opposition parties are threatening to pull the plug on the Tory minority government over its handling of the mission in Afghanistan. Bloc Quebecois Leader Gilles Duceppe warned Monday he might table a non-confidence motion if the mandate of Canadian soldiers in the wartorn country doesn’t change. And the other opposition parties suggested they might join a Bloc effort to that effect in the new year. Duceppe said the mission needs to be “rapidly and profoundly” retooled and must focus more heavily on reconstruction instead of fighting. He said the government is failing to secure troop commitments from other NATO countries and the current mission risks becoming a results-free sacrifice of human life. “We will not go along with an obtuse government that digs in its heels,” Duceppe told a Quebec City audience. “Because if nothing changes, we are certainly going to get stuck. “If (Prime Minister Stephen) Harper refuses to make these changes, we won’t hesitate to withdraw our support and, if need be, to defeat his government on the Afghan question.” Duceppe described Afghanistan as one of three possible reasons to defeat the government. The others are climate change and the alleged federal-provincial fiscal imbalance. Such a motion on Afghanistan would pose a particular dilemma for the Liberals, who signed up Canada for the mission in the first place while they were in power. The party is now divided on the issue and its new leader has been critical of the current mission. “We’ll wait to see (the motion) before making a choice,” Liberal Leader Stephane Dion said. “Our mission in Afghanistan has enormous problems. One of the main reasons for that is half the Afghan economy is involved in an illicit activity (the poppy trade) that is filling warlords’ coffers.” Dion is calling for a so-called Marshall plan and for alternate means to compensate farmers who grow poppies. However, he has been vague so far about what he would propose. As for the Tories, Dion said they have only themselves to blame if they appear fragile. “This government is vulnerable - thanks to its very right-wing policies, which are very far from what Canadians want,” Dion said. “I know this government can fall.” Forty-four Canadian soldiers and one diplomat have been killed since the Afghan mission began in 2002, the majority of those casualties this year. But the Canadian who recently led the NATO mission for nine months says much was accomplished under his watch. Brig.-Gen. David Fraser says 146 kilometres of new roads and more than 100,000 metres of irrigation canals were finished. Another 1,000 wells were dug in Kandahar province by Nov. 1, when the Dutch assumed control of the mission. Among Canadian federal parties, only the NDP has formally called for a troop withdrawal and it appears likely to support any motion of the sort Duceppe is proposing. “We have never had confidence in Mr. Harper’s approach to this foreign policy matter,” NDP Leader Jack Layton said. “We have said so and we have voted accordingly and it would not be a surprise to Canadians to have us continue on that path. We believe that change is needed here.” Duceppe denied that his hardening of opinion against the mission is a matter of political convenience. Quebecers have been more skeptical than other Canadians about the mission, surveys say, and opposition in the province may deepen when 2,000 soldiers from Quebec are deployed to Afghanistan next summer. But Duceppe said he has been voicing the same objections for months. “I make absolutely no distinction between someone from Petawawa (base in Ontario) and someone from Valcartier (in Quebec).” © The Canadian Press 2006 source: http://www.canada.com/topics/news/po...e0b428&k=57083
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Dec 11, 06
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