Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War

[mapleleaf4ever]

Originally Posted by NinjaBoy

OMFG, he should totally be allowed to stay. Don't worry about the thousands of others who qued up for immigration here through the proper channels.

The guy who signed up for the military (which clearly states you don't get to pick your battles) should get to stay because he illegally crossed here because of his political view.

I've had enough of these people from other countries who have no choice in the danger, or politics forced upon them trying to get into this country. It's time us to stand up and support those who chose their profession and at the last minute were all like "Fuck this noise, I'm outta here."

I hope that's sarcasm.

As far as I'm concerned, you join the Military, you go where the hell you're told. That's your job. You don't join the Military and expect to sit and do fuck all. You join the Military because you can bet at one point you're going to be put in the line-of-fire wether you like it or not.

You have no politics, hell you are lucky to get called by your first name when in the Armed Forces.

No mercy, send him back. I'd say the same if it was a Canadian trying to escape to Sweden because he didn't want to fight in Afghanistan. You sign up, you read the papers. When your contract is up, then you can move to Saltspring and eat all the Granola and bathe in Patchouli all you want.

[Some dude]

Originally Posted by cinist

Many of the people who signed up, did so without realizing they were signing up for an illegal/unjust war.

They were signing up to get shot at on the behalf of their fellow citizens. Their fellow citizens are benefiting from the occupation of Iraq (lol oil), even if most say they're opposed to it.

So, I think they're getting exactly what they signed up for.

Originally Posted by cinist

Some were told they would be in non-combat postions.

Most probably are in "non-combat positions" in the sense that they are not intentionally sent to engage hostile forces (army definition), but they're still soldiers in a combat zone, even if their job is just to dig wells.

Originally Posted by cinist

A good number of soldiers are recruited from their small/jobless towns or inner city ghetto's...

Heaven forbid that the government should try to combat unemployment and provide an alternative to organized crime.

Originally Posted by cinist

where they are fed endless information about all the perks they will recieve if they join up. They go to schools, malls, basketball courts ect and get kids to sign up before they've even left high school!

Got a point, but I reckon a soldier that got recruited out of highschool would have a better chance of getting refugee status. Might even be able to fight it in a US court.

Originally Posted by cinist

These recruiters are under insane pressure to get people signed up..they actually have quoto's that they have to live up to every month (There have even been suicides among recruitment officers)

Who doesn't have deadlines and quotas at work?

Originally Posted by cinist

There are an estimated 20,000 dodgers, doesn't this spell out pretty clearly that something is wrong?

Says to me that people want their signing bonus or whatever, but not to do the actual job.

Originally Posted by cinist

Also, a lot of these people have already been to Iraq and are being sent back on their 2nd or 3rd tour, did they sign up for that? it's back door draft as they say. Many are not willing to participate in what they've alreay scene for themselves is wrong.

All in the contract, Im sure. That fine print is a killer.

Originally Posted by cinist

Would they have a louder voice to critisize the war from an American prison? yeah sorry I really doubt that.

Not Canada's problem.

Originally Posted by cinist

Would a country be less likely to enter an un-just war if they knew their people would oppose and refure to fight, just maybe.

Bush got re-elected and I will be surprised if the Republicans don't win again. "Mission Accomplished"

[SEAN!]

Originally Posted by Carrie

I agree that he should go, it was his choice to join the US Army, he knew that he could be sent to Iraq.

he's being a coward about it too, if he really beleived strongly in his beleifs we wouldn't have deserted.

Look up erhen watada he was an army officer in a similar position, didn't desert and didn't get a dishonourible discharge if you have real convictions and arent just a fool that joined the army and didn't realize what it is they actually do, you stand up for your beleifs like watada did.

'waaah, i dont want to get shot at' shouldve thought about that before you joined the most active military force in the world.

[SEAN!]

Originally Posted by Senior

army recruiters target people who are poor and uneducated making all kinds of promises. personally I can understand why people would be foolish enough to get caught up in it would support allowing someone to stay here who has fled from this.

GoArmy.com

have seen how much fun this shit looks like? now imagine growing up in an inner city slum with little hope of a better future.

I have a friend in Iraq right now, he joined the Marines knowing full well what it meant for alot of these people its a career and they know what they are getting into.

he's also college educated and from a well off family, theres alot of soldiers like him so don't make such sweeping generalisations. for anyone from a slum its a decent career choice, and everyone knows what soldiers actually do for a living just by watching movies.

shit if i was american id probably join the marines too

[SEAN!]

Originally Posted by cinist

Many of the people who signed up, did so without realizing they were signing up for an illegal/unjust war.
Some were told they would be in non-combat postions.
A good number of soldiers are recruited from their small/jobless towns or inner city ghetto's where they are fed endless information about all the perks they will recieve if they join up. They go to schools, malls, basketball courts ect and get kids to sign up before they've even left high school!
These recruiters are under insane pressure to get people signed up..they actually have quoto's that they have to live up to every month (There have even been suicides among recruitment officers)

There are an estimated 20,000 dodgers, doesn't this spell out pretty clearly that something is wrong?

Also, a lot of these people have already been to Iraq and are being sent back on their 2nd or 3rd tour, did they sign up for that? it's back door draft as they say. Many are not willing to participate in what they've alreay scene for themselves is wrong.

Would they have a louder voice to critisize the war from an American prison? yeah sorry I really doubt that.

Would a country be less likely to enter an un-just war if they knew their people would oppose and refure to fight, just maybe.

there are so many much more deserving refugee claimants then this guy and people oppose his deportation? for what? we've deported whole families to shitholes where they face almost certain death and people are worried about this kid who joined in 2005 when everyone knew the war was a mistake.

man the fuck up, you're a soldier. if you have a problem with it you have legal ways to oppose the war as a soldier without running to a foreign country.

Ehren Watada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[GSG9]

send the lil bitch to war. i fuckin HATE people that join the military as a job but as soon as it comes time to put the training to the test they fuckin bail out. murder will put peach fuzz on his nuts, itll be good for him.

[stephen_c]

Originally Posted by mapleleaf4ever

I hope that's sarcasm.

As far as I'm concerned, you join the Military, you go where the hell you're told. That's your job. You don't join the Military and expect to sit and do fuck all. You join the Military because you can bet at one point you're going to be put in the line-of-fire wether you like it or not.

You have no politics, hell you are lucky to get called by your first name when in the Armed Forces.

No mercy, send him back. I'd say the same if it was a Canadian trying to escape to Sweden because he didn't want to fight in Afghanistan. You sign up, you read the papers. When your contract is up, then you can move to Saltspring and eat all the Granola and bathe in Patchouli all you want.

i'm a saltspring, granola eatin, patchouli bathin kinda guy.
let them desertin yeller belly yankees stay please.





.

[NinjaBoy]

Originally Posted by cinist

:idea::idea::idea:


it wouldn't hurt half of you people to read a book or atleast watch a documenary or something sometime, eh?

Ah, the you're ignorant because I read a book/watched a youtube video which supported my views argument. You could at least support your argument rather then just saying "YOU'RE ALL IGNORANT, BUT I'M NOT." That line pretty much means you've excluded yourself from intelligent debate.


I don't believe that any volunteer military can operate on the premise that you can sign up, and if you feel like it go to war.

American troops take an oath, to protect their country and follow the chain of command.

It's a short hop and a skip from not fighting in Iraq because you don't support the politics to not joining a peace keeping mission because you feel the resources used in that mission are best spent on that country. Or you won't defend the western front because you feel the eastern front is more important.

Saying that it is alright for each soldier to agree to their deployment based on personal politics at that given time sets a huge precedent that makes a military unable to operate.

That being said, I didn't support the Iraq war when it began, and I still don't. However, a military can only run when there is a chain of command, not when each soldier is allowed to make their own choice on personal whim.

[NinjaBoy]

Originally Posted by SEAN!

there are so many much more deserving refugee claimants then this guy and people oppose his deportation? for what? we've deported whole families to shitholes where they face almost certain death and people are worried about this kid who joined in 2005 when everyone knew the war was a mistake.

man the fuck up, you're a soldier. if you have a problem with it you have legal ways to oppose the war as a soldier without running to a foreign country.

Ehren Watada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My point exactly. He's jumping the line...

He's not in a worse position then many of the immigrants/refuges that follow proper political channels.

Cinst, could you explain to me why he get's preferential treatment?

[cinist]

uh, i think i pretty much explained my thoughts on the situation in the following post? I just wasn't exactly in a huge rush to get into a debate on fnk where the moral fiber of the majority is about that of a turd. Every social question ever discussed here has been a load of shit. We are talking about people who enjoy setting homeless people's beards on fire for money?

And yes it is ignorance which keeps people from feeling compassion.

I don't believe that anyone has a responsibilty to fight in a war and kill other human beings because they signed a peice of paper under false pretenses.

I feel like I am in the twilight zone, I have images of millions of stoic/zombie like creatures marching in unison. How did we get to a point where we are a willing audience to murder and gov't corruption?

[cinist]

Originally Posted by Some dude

Who doesn't have deadlines and quotas at work?

uh, i wasn't as worried about their stress level as I am about the tactics and lies they use to trick kids into signing up? it was kind of my point.


And Sean, recruits from middle to upper class backgrounds have steadily dropped in numbers since 2003, meanwhile recruits from lower end zip codes have steadily risen and they are now over represented in the army.

1 in 5 recruits are 18 or younger, 67 percent are under the age of 22. You throw a $20,000 signing bonus to an underprivilaged hopeless kid and call that honorable?

To say, they took an oath and should stand by their choice is laughable, come off it.

[miss.myra]

maaaan, i wonder if people would be more sympathetic if Canada was actively involved in the war in Iraq.

For those of you that don't know, America is in a hell of a state right now economically. Unemployment rates are at an all time high.

I'm not trying to say I feel for the guy or I don't, because I really haven't been where they've been so my opinion lacks experience.

But Senior is right, the army uses ALL sorts of tricks to recruit people and it's sad. Hasn't anyone seen the TV ads promising a government grant towards starting your own business? The promise of a free college education to people who would never have the means otherwise? In the USA, there are a lot of very very poor and very desperate people.

I do believe that some of the soldiers signed up when they truly believed they were going to make a difference in the world by going into Iraq. Now, there has been no evidence of WMD's and it's not even a combat war. It's just a bunch of poor American boys forced to be janitors in a country full of people who loathe their presence. It's soldiers sitting and waiting for the next attack, not by a country's soldiers, but by guerilla fighters.

If you're not opposed to military action in Iraq for moral reasons, then just look at the economic effect it has on the American economy and the entire world. How can people out of one side of their mouths totally support military action in Iraq and encourage people to fight there, but bitch about gas prices out of the other side. makes no sense.

[NinjaBoy]

Originally Posted by cinist

uh, i think i pretty much explained my thoughts on the situation in the following post? I just wasn't exactly in a huge rush to get into a debate on fnk where the moral fiber of the majority is about that of a turd. Every social question ever discussed here has been a load of shit. We are talking about people who enjoy setting homeless people's beards on fire for money?

Huh? Who's setting beards on fire?

And yes it is ignorance which keeps people from feeling compassion.

I don't believe that anyone has a responsibilty to fight in a war and kill other human beings because they signed a peice of paper under false pretenses.

It's not their responsibility to fight when the join the army? When is it their responsibility? I don't believe in the war at all, but that's not a luxury you get in the armed forces.

I feel like I am in the twilight zone, I have images of millions of stoic/zombie like creatures marching in unison. How did we get to a point where we are a willing audience to murder and gov't corruption?

Voter apathy?

[cinist]

so, according to your logic, soldiers who signed up under hitler had a responsibility to kill jews and do as they were ordered, regardless of whether they knew it was wrong or not?


Do you people honestly not see how things are playing out here? The opinions expressed on this board make it easy to understand how Bush and Harper are in office. It's a sad day and age in Canada when we have young people who think like this.

[Vitamin-X]

I'm still a little hazy on this concept of an "illegal war".
Who exactly gets to decide which war is Legal or not? the UN?

I thought war was two sides who think they're right slugging it out!
After all, when it comes right down to it, you can make all the UN resolutions you want; violence is still the ultimate authority.

[NinjaBoy]

Originally Posted by cinist

so, according to your logic, soldiers who signed up under hitler had a responsibility to kill jews and do as they were ordered, regardless of whether they knew it was wrong or not?

Dear god, are you really trying to argue politics by using comparisons to the nazi's? What are you in grade 9?

Are you arguing the right for soldiers to chose what battles they participate in on a case by case basis dependent on their own personal politics?

As I've stated before, a military can not function without a chain of command. Using the comparisons of Nazi Germany demonstrates your lack of understanding behind the situation. Militaries have laws to prevent this, sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. But being deployed in Iraq is not the same as being told to gas a bunch of Jews.

It's sad that you come on here and lecture us about our lack of understanding and ignorance. Do you really believe that every german soldier, or even 90% of them were jewish burning psychopaths?

No most of them never participated in this. It was carried out by a small fraction of the military, often without the common troops knowing. Most of them signed up under the idea of expanding their empire/defending their homeland.

Dismissing other people's arguments without hesitation is true ignorance.

Do you people honestly not see how things are playing out here? The opinions expressed on this board make it easy to understand how Bush and Harper are in office. It's a sad day and age in Canada when we have young people who think like this.

And welcome to "I don't understand voting in Canada 101".

The majority of Canadians didn't vote for harper. We work on a parliment system. And from exit polls, and phone polls around Canada, the vast majority of young people voted either liberal or NDP.

Young people didn't bring in a conservative government. Baby boomers did. They represent a larger population, and have higher voter turn outs to boot.

[NinjaBoy]

Originally Posted by Vitamin-X

I'm still a little hazy on this concept of an "illegal war".
Who exactly gets to decide which war is Legal or not? the UN?

I thought war was two sides who think they're right slugging it out!
After all, when it comes right down to it, you can make all the UN resolutions you want; violence is still the ultimate authority.

Technically if you are in the UN, and if you are going to declare war it has to be voted on by the security council of the UN. The idea being that you declare war without justification.

But as you can imagine it's not the most effective system. It has prevented conflicts though. Because if you are going against the UN you can expect some sanctions sucka.

Oh, and if you are on the security council you pretty much don't have to worry.

[miss.myra]

Originally Posted by NinjaBoy

Young people didn't bring in a conservative government. Baby boomers did. They represent a larger population, and have higher voter turn outs to boot.

Touche, young people probably were partly responsible for bringing in a Conservative (albiet minority) government because the lot of them are too apathetic to bother to vote. About 25% of the young demographic bothered to vote in the last election. That's pretty deplorable.

[cinist]

did you just say anything suprising other then that you are a capable sheep? i've studied nazi Germany at length, I don't need your help.

I also understand Canadian politics, but yes it did take a great number of people voting for Harper for him to be elected, uhm hello?

"No most of them never participated in this. It was carried out by a small fraction of the military, often without the common troops knowing. Most of them signed up under the idea of expanding their empire/defending their homeland."
-well no shit sherlock .....but are we talking about nazi germany or the iraq war, could be either from the stories that are coming out of Iraq??

When i said it's a sad day and age when young people think like this i meant, you! and the others in here spouting off that people must go off and do as they are told without thought, because they signed a contract.

who are you to decide that killing iraqi's for oil is any less horrific then gassing jews?

as a human being, i am sorry but my own conscious has a stronger hold on my actions then the importance of "the chain of military command?" LOL

If anyone here has a "lack of understanding", i would argue that it's you.

[cinist]

ahhh, the sanctity of the US Military, refreshing.......


uhm nope, can't dig it.

[NinjaBoy]

Originally Posted by cinist

When i said it's a sad day and age when young people think like this i meant, you! and the others in here spouting off that people must go off and do as they are told without thought, because they signed a contract.

You've never ever answered my question. Should each soldier be allowed to decided if they participate in each engagment based on their politics at the time.

Until you answer this you are missing the point. And no amount of calling me ignorant because I have a different opinion, or I "don't read as much as you" (I probably do, but don't feel it's nessesary to say I do, I try to let my actual comments reflect that) is going to sway my arguement or prove you are right.

Calling someone a part of the ignorant masses in, what I hope is a debate, is pretty much a guarantee you've lost the debate. At least in most debate groups.

who are you to decide that killing iraqi's for oil is any less horrific then gassing jews?

Are the troops there being told. "When you see someone of ethnic group A, shoot them in the head."? No, it's a misplaced conflict, and there should be huge accountability within the American government.

as a human being, i am sorry but my own conscious has a stronger hold on my actions then the importance of "the chain of military command?" LOL

Always easy to say from your living room on your computer.

Please, by all means. If you really support his bid for refugue status, could you explain it to the people trying to flee ethnic cleansing in their country to Canada.

"I'm sorry, but someone who joined the military in the sates doesn't want to fight, so he's skipping the line because he illegally migrated here."

Iraq war being wrong, does not equal, this case being right. And that's a huge mistake. You're supporting this based on a broad politics...

Law is judged on a case by case study. If he had been drafted, he would have an arguement. But he wasn't.

If anyone here has a "lack of understanding", i would argue that it's you.

Yes, whatever, I have a different opinion, but thankfully I'm able to argue my position without calling the other person:

-Ignorant
-a sheep
-the reason why young people voted in the conservatives
or force myself to use comparisons to Nazi's.

[NinjaBoy]

PS- If you haven't gotten this yet:

I DON'T SUPPORT THE IRAQ WAR.

That being said, I can't support his case.

[cinist]

To make it entirely simple for you, i am saying i don't care or judge what bad decisions these people have made, nor do i feel they deserve punishment. I simply support their effort to correct those mistakes by leaving the military and i welcome them into my country.

And to answere your question, yes, i do believe that if a soldier is asked to do something that they know is morally and ethically wrong that they should indeed refuse.

In my eyes it's incredibly silly to think that a gov't, military or anyone else can make decisions that force people to kill other people against their will.

I don't know if this is a news flash for you or not but the majority in the house of commons voted for resisters to be allowed to stay. (now tell me i don't understand the left wing agenda or something like that)
Also, polls have shown most canadians would also like for them to be given refugee status.

btw, don't be so uppity. you are using an equal amount of dismissive language and style in your own 'arguement'.


"Always easy to say from your living room on your computer."
- I could have said that at the begining of this thread and left it at that.

[Vitamin-X]

Originally Posted by NinjaBoy

Technically if you are in the UN, and if you are going to declare war it has to be voted on by the security council of the UN. The idea being that you declare war without justification.

But as you can imagine it's not the most effective system. It has prevented conflicts though. Because if you are going against the UN you can expect some sanctions sucka.

Oh, and if you are on the security council you pretty much don't have to worry.

That actually cleared a few things up.

Although what was the whole Serbian thing where the States didn't declare war (although insisted they had all the protections of the Geneva treaty) and just bombed the hell out of everything.

I'm guessing that's a "don't worry you're on the security council thing".

[mapleleaf4ever]

The almighty Veto is a great thing to have in your Nation's favour.