What would you think of adopting the same currency as the USA?

[stephen_c]

as of today,
our loonie is worth 87 cents to the us dollar. (weak commodities prices)
we lost 13 cents in 3 months.
goodbye cross border shoppin.

CADUSD=X: Summary for CAD to USD - Yahoo! Finance

[Grapes]

Hello boom in film industry!

[Senior]

LOOK GUYS THEY HAVE ALREADY STARTED PRINTING THE COINS, SORRY IT'S A DONE DEAL!

I love how I've been told this by conspiracy nut jobs for about 5 years now...

[Krusha]

anyone who says they've started printing COINS is a nut job ... also the mint myth of the amero is very easily verifiable as a fraud (for now)

[Krusha]

Originally Posted by Grapes

OK so this less that scientific poll is basically over, and we've reached a fairly solid conclusion, the one I suspected, that being: FnKers hate the Amero.

Whether this would extrapolate to Canadians as a whole is up for debate, but even if we imagine this poll to be indicative of the left leaning side of our nation, I would still anticipate strong distaste on the whole. A conservative viewpoint is often a Nationalistic viewpoint, and I can't see those with a passion for national pride willfully signing away our fiscal identity.

SO, my question to Krusha is, how does the Amero happen if, say, 90% of our country is opposed to it? You've examined backroom dealings but you haven't accounted for the will of the people, and in a democratic society the will of the people still matters (ask any of the party leaders that are desperately fishing for our votes ATM).

So how does it happen? If you can convince me then I'll allow all the "Prepare to become the 53rd state!", posts you want, but if not I'm going to keep calling BS with every alarmist thread.

It's simple where we differ... you believe that the will of the people still matters, I don't; I think it can be easily manipulated and is no longer a variable. I think that democratically elected officials have only a certain amount of leeway to the special interests that fund their campaigns and select them be the figureheads of a two party system that we then elect.

I also believe that generally people don't like swim against the tide. Do you see people disagreeing to the ridiculous amount of anti terrorist screening at airports OR do you see people just going with the flow? Oh just fuck it... can't bring a liquid. We all know it's stupid, and I think most people don't really think theres a boogeyman al quaeda dude on their plane, but we comply because it's too much bother to care. This is exactly what the system expects and how it gets us to obey. Slowly yet surely incremental increases of globalization make their way onto unsuspecting fodder.

The Amero ain't happening anytime soon (now would be horrible timing). The Amero can be sold as a good thing, and people will buy into the idea if you shove it down their throats enough times.

But most importantly, and here's the clencher... you don't get to vote on policies of the SPP... THESE GUYS DO.

According to a Council of the Americas report, the purpose of institutionalizing the North American business community's involvement in the SPP process was, "so that the work will continue through changes in administrations."

So in conclusion, am I being an alarmist? If so I'm doing it to great effect... you've even started a poll to prove a point that only furthered my underlying purpose (thank you). I want people to know it is a very plausible idea, and if it comes into fruition in the future I want people to remember this moment, so they can understand that it's been planned for a while and won't be the reason they will be selling it to the public when it's decided that it gets rolled out.

Originally Posted by stephen_c

as of today,
our loonie is worth 87 cents to the us dollar. (weak commodities prices)
we lost 13 cents in 3 months.
goodbye cross border shoppin.

CADUSD=X: Summary for CAD to USD - Yahoo! Finance

Some people are that stupid... WE DIDNT GO DOWN ANYTHING!

Just like last year when we "thought" our dollar was going up, when really it was only the US dollar going down. Thats why you would of lost big in Europe this summer since the Euro has increased 10-15% in the passed two years.

Again our dollar is still at the same % to the Euro, pound, and Auz dollar, BUT THE US DOLLAR HAS GONE UP.

[.Promoter]

I think in the long term NAFTA needs to form into a CU vs a FTA to be more like the EU. Mexico/USA/Canada as the base three and then add some of the other central american nations as we go.

However, this is something that is not practical until mexico becomes a more developed nation, so say 50 years from now.

However i would much rather see canada join in with the EU, but under the EUs current mandate that would be impossible.

But in the long run my general view is that the world needs to adopt a global currency, and global free markets.

I also believe that in the long run we need to develope into one GIANT CU, and operate basically as a global federation of states with the same currency and free trade, citizenship rights for all members in all countries, aka the liberal and free flow of labor and people, made up of all original nations with control over their sovergnty to declare war and make most laws ect.

I believe that the only way to stablish a true Kantian peace is through democratic interdependance. Free trade and democaracy for all members. Chances are such a set up would start much like the EU, with only a small number of nations, and slowly expend so that all members could reap the benefits.

The benifits go beyond economic, when nations become interdependant to the extent of the EU the chances of conflict between members shrinks by a gigantic amount. At the same time intervention and peacekeeping is much easier to coordinate and allocate.

But as far as adopting the same currency as the US, only if it was a new dollar, like the North Americano or something, not just adopting the american dollar.

[Senior]

by your own logic we would already have the "Amero."

Originally Posted by Krusha

It's simple where we differ... you believe that the will of the people still matters, I don't; I think it can be easily manipulated and is no longer a variable. I think that democratically elected officials have only a certain amount of leeway to the special interests that fund their campaigns and select them be the figureheads of a two party system that we then elect.

I also believe that generally people don't like swim against the tide. Do you see people disagreeing to the ridiculous amount of anti terrorist screening at airports OR do you see people just going with the flow? Oh just fuck it... can't bring a liquid. We all know it's stupid, and I think most people don't really think theres a boogeyman al quaeda dude on their plane, but we comply because it's too much bother to care. This is exactly what the system expects and how it gets us to obey. Slowly yet surely incremental increases of globalization make their way onto unsuspecting fodder.

The Amero ain't happening anytime soon (now would be horrible timing). The Amero can be sold as a good thing, and people will buy into the idea if you shove it down their throats enough times.

But most importantly, and here's the clencher... you don't get to vote on policies of the SPP... THESE GUYS DO.

According to a Council of the Americas report, the purpose of institutionalizing the North American business community's involvement in the SPP process was, "so that the work will continue through changes in administrations."

So in conclusion, am I being an alarmist? If so I'm doing it to great effect... you've even started a poll to prove a point that only furthered my underlying purpose (thank you). I want people to know it is a very plausible idea, and if it comes into fruition in the future I want people to remember this moment, so they can understand that it's been planned for a while and won't be the reason they will be selling it to the public when it's decided that it gets rolled out.

[Krusha]

no by my own logic , we are likely to have the amero in the future, no where did i say we already have it

and i'll even quote what you quoted to make you look stupid... "The Amero ain't happening anytime soon (now would be horrible timing). The Amero can be sold as a good thing, and people will buy into the idea if you shove it down their throats enough times."

are you done looking stupid?

or maybe it's just senility ... SENIOR

[Grapes]

Originally Posted by Krusha

It's simple where we differ... you believe that the will of the people still matters, I don't; I think it can be easily manipulated and is no longer a variable. I think that democratically elected officials have only a certain amount of leeway to the special interests that fund their campaigns and select them be the figureheads of a two party system that we then elect.

I also believe that generally people don't like swim against the tide. Do you see people disagreeing to the ridiculous amount of anti terrorist screening at airports OR do you see people just going with the flow?

You're right about where we differ, and in some other respects we agree. I think I mentioned a bit earlier (possibly in the other thread)
that big business certainly has influence on government, and I also agree that a lot of passivity has been displayed in this decade towards things we should have been more up in arms about (9/11 accounted for a fair bit of that passivity).

But to my mind what you're ignoring is the matter of the degree to which the hornets nest can be shaken before motherfuckers get stung. You think the will of the people is "no longer being a variable"?.. I wonder.

Take your airport scenario. People grumbled, but assented. Now imagine a policy was put in place where cavity searches were made mandatory for every 5th customer. Still think people would just grin and bear it?

Stupid example, right? Ridiculous, it would never happen. Of course not, but I'm just illustrating a point: If people dislike a policy enough, they won't accept it, and it won't be possible to implement it. That was the point of the poll, to get a handle on whether the community here found the idea as repulsive as I did. And they pretty much do.

You can't seriously argue that the will of the people doesn't matter. Your best argument is that your reckon the hornets would stay in their nest. I reckon they wouldn't. There's no sure way to answer that question, but its obvious we lean in different directions.

Originally Posted by Krusha

The Amero ain't happening anytime soon (now would be horrible timing). The Amero can be sold as a good thing, and people will buy into the idea if you shove it down their throats enough times.

Three issues:

- Should you really be able to perpetually say "it's not happening yet, but sometime...." until we both grow old and die and you go to the grave without me getting to say "I told you it wouldn't?" Can you fix a time period of some sort?

- The Amero could've been sold as a good thing 5 years ago when our dollar was worth 2/3 of the American dollar, or better yet when Clinton was in charge of the USA and things were relatively rosy. It wasn't.

- Related issue, you talk about it being "shoved down our throats", but I never hear about it except on this board. Why hasn't a marketing campaign started in earnest?

Originally Posted by Krusha

But most importantly, and here's the clencher... you don't get to vote on policies of the SPP... THESE GUYS DO. [/url]

I vote on the government of this country, along with my fellow citizens. The government implements the laws of this country and therefore decides what currency we use. Simple simple simple.

Originally Posted by Krusha

So in conclusion, am I being an alarmist? If so I'm doing it to great effect... you've even started a poll to prove a point that only furthered my underlying purpose (thank you).

You're welcome.. but I'm at a loss as to how this poll has done anything to shore up your case. In theory the public is passive and will roll over if the Amero is introduced. As it turns out even a bunch of RAVERS (and ex ravers :) ) are massively turned off by the idea.

What an alarmist does is repeatedly sound an alarm. You are certainly doing that to great effect. I'm just saying all that alarm sounding isn't justified, and is making my ears hurt a bit.

[stephen_c]

Originally Posted by R Wellbelove

Some people are that stupid... WE DIDNT GO DOWN ANYTHING!

Just like last year when we "thought" our dollar was going up, when really it was only the US dollar going down. Thats why you would of lost big in Europe this summer since the Euro has increased 10-15% in the passed two years.

Again our dollar is still at the same % to the Euro, pound, and Auz dollar, BUT THE US DOLLAR HAS GONE UP.

squeeze me??? who's "Some people".

i wrote:
"our loonie is worth 87 cents to the us dollar."
as in *in relation to*

i mentioned nothing about euro, pound, yen, up, down, sideways, etc.

[Grapes]

There are definitely stupid people on here, but I get the impression stephen c isn't one of them.

[stephen_c]

^
except for my grammar

[Grapes]

As an English Nazi it pains me to say this but.. grammar isn't everything.

No-one quote me on that, I'll deny I ever said it.

[Krusha]

Originally Posted by Grapes

But to my mind what you're ignoring is the matter of the degree to which the hornets nest can be shaken before motherfuckers get stung. You think the will of the people is "no longer being a variable"?.. I wonder.

I wonder too, I really do. I can't say that I'm 100% right and I want the will of the people to still count for something; otherwise I wouldn't be putting the effort into making these posts.

Originally Posted by Grapes

Take your airport scenario. People grumbled, but assented. Now imagine a policy was put in place where cavity searches were made mandatory for every 5th customer. Still think people would just grin and bear it?

No people wouldn't but ... that degree of extremity doesn't happen overnight, it's a gradual application of stimuli so that it doesn't shock you. What was it again you boil a frog in a pot and it will just sit there till it cooks... lol. That's my idea of society. You make the searches a bit more rigorous, people grumble and assent. Rinse and repeat and eventually you've got anal probing wands manufactured by Boeing. I really think it's time people stop being complacent about these issues because they are becoming a reality. The EU is a reality, the NAU is right around the corner. The NAFTA superhighway is being constructed. This shit is being aired on mainstream media, it's not a conspiracy theory anymore. Shit is a reality!

The best part is that neither of us like the idea! and everyone else agrees, otherwise the idea of the currency wouldn't have been rejected so drastically in the poll.

So we're on the same page here, I'm just smelling shit before it hits the fan, and so you're calling me an alarmist. I'm trying to ruffle the feathers of the people a little, because the dead mass that makes up most of us needs a little bit of alarming once in a while. Also, I'm not going to continue to preach about this after this thread, because I have better things to do. I'm glad I can get my point across and we're doing it in a fairly civil manner. So really, I'm not an alarmist because you won't see me do this over and over and over... after this thread I'm done preaching.

Originally Posted by Grapes

I vote on the government of this country, along with my fellow citizens. The government implements the laws of this country and therefore decides what currency we use. Simple simple simple.

Simply wrong in the case of the SPP, which is a white house led initiative, backed by the corporate sector. Please look into it some more before you make false claims. You're an intelligent guy and I even spoiled you with a juicy quote from a Council of the Americas report. "so that the work will continue through changes in administrations."

OK?!? ... I don't care about winning an argument here dude, but these are facts, and you've missed a big one in my last post.

The North American Competitiveness Council is a group of 30 CEOs selected to continue the framework of the SPP regardless of what administration is in power.

regardless of what administration is in power.

regardless of what administration is in power.

Originally Posted by Grapes

I vote on the government of this country, along with my fellow citizens. The government implements the laws of this country and therefore decides what currency we use. Simple simple simple.

The North American Competitiveness Council is a group of 30 CEOs selected to continue the framework of the SPP regardless of what administration is in power.

Have I gotten through yet?

If led by massive amounts of dissent who knows maybe we can stop it (or change it in all likelihood), but nobody cares. You're the only one whose continuing this conversation with me because everyone else's patience has already numbed. You see? People get bored of this shit or can't focus and they move on. Besides you, I've gotten a couple two bit comments from senior which are half baked and off topic and that's it. So maybe people are complacent, maybe all we really care about is the next season of gossip girls or whatever other shit is on the buffet of our little minds. Maybe it's easier and more fun to label people instead of looking at facts.

I don't wanna talk about it anymore anyways... I've made my points, (and I have a single to finish =p). I've stated FACTS that have been placed in reports, based on organizations that already exist.

To get an idea of how mainstream this shit already is I will leave you with CNN news anchor Lou Dobbs (one of the last honest journalists) and his report of the NAFTA superhighway.

[Senior]

oh I'm sorry, you think people actually read your long winded rants... if anything I skim them so my bad. what I was referring to though specifically was this

Originally Posted by Krusha

It's simple where we differ... you believe that the will of the people still matters, I don't; I think it can be easily manipulated and is no longer a variable.

you believe that the "all powerful people" can do anything they want regardless of public/political opinion. so what's the hold up?

Originally Posted by Krusha

no by my own logic , we are likely to have the amero in the future, no where did i say we already have it

and i'll even quote what you quoted to make you look stupid... "The Amero ain't happening anytime soon (now would be horrible timing). The Amero can be sold as a good thing, and people will buy into the idea if you shove it down their throats enough times."

are you done looking stupid?

or maybe it's just senility ... SENIOR

[Senior]

and for fucks sake you've been going on about this for years!!!!!! when is any of this going to happen? end of the World, prison camps, mass killing, 40 lane highway through the middle of the continent, implants...

[Grapes]

Originally Posted by Krusha

The North American Competitiveness Council is a group of 30 CEOs selected to continue the framework of the SPP regardless of what administration is in power.

regardless of what administration is in power.

regardless of what administration is in power.

The North American Competitiveness Council is a group of 30 CEOs selected to continue the framework of the SPP regardless of what administration is in power.

Have I gotten through yet?

Well, yeah, you've gotten through the point that these CEOs are going to push for certain agendas (the Amero being one of them?) regardless of what administration is in power in Canada (and I guess, the US and Mexico).

That's interesting. But I'd respond that regardless of what those CEOs want, (and even if you want to argue they're heavily influential in government policy!), legally speaking it's whatever administration that is in power that is legally responsible and will be held accountable for the tying of our currency, a currency that has been a mark of our independence and national identity for 150 some odd years, to our neighbors down south.

And I still just don't see it happening.

[.Promoter]

K its not about loosing independence.

Basically in the long run, adopting a continent wide currency has more benifits then downsides.

1stly you take canadas 30 million person economy, and add it to the USA and Mexico to create a 430 million person large economy.

This makes the dollar tied to a much more diverse and strong economic base meaning that it is less likely to fluctuate by such large degrees when specific commodities are effected.

2ndly It removes all risk from trading between the USA, Canada, and Mexico. No longer does a investor have to worry about the dollar falling or rising, you have one currency, and trade between all 3 countries is stable and risk-free.

3rdly It increases the chance of foriegn investment in the country as the dollar will be more stable and therefore a more attractive place to invest in.

No matter what you argue, establishing a currency that is standard to the US, Canada and Mexico is A GOOD IDEA.

The disadvantages include not being able to fix your own intrests rates to handle inflation. HOWEVER Considering the Canadian dollar is already completely and utterly linked to the american dollar, and our interest rates and inflation rates are always very close, this is not a problem.

For a country that trades over 80% of its trade GDP with the USA it would make way more sense to have the same currency.

And ill stress, this is not a TYING of the currency. Its the concept of adopting a completely NEW currency. It would be represented on all sides USA/Canada/Mexico by their own representatives in the new Central Bank, which would probably be called the Central Bank of North America or something like it. And this bank would be responsible for what the bank of america and bank of canada are respoinsible for now.

Even though yes, we would be outnumbered 10-1 by americans, you have to get over your hatred and realise that it is only the currency, and it does not change any of our other soveirgn rights such as the right to declare war, make our own laws, right to territory ect.

[Krusha]

Originally Posted by Senior

and for fucks sake you've been going on about this for years!!!!!! when is any of this going to happen? end of the World, prison camps, mass killing, 40 lane highway through the middle of the continent, implants...

stop sensationalizing this tripe, im not talking about conspiracies right now

this is why i have a problem with you right now, you're dragging me into the mud with all the above crap

and i haven't been talking about this for years, you're confusing me with my brother

truly a senile senior

[Krusha]

Originally Posted by Grapes

Well, yeah, you've gotten through the point that these CEOs are going to push for certain agendas (the Amero being one of them?) regardless of what administration is in power in Canada (and I guess, the US and Mexico).

That's interesting. But I'd respond that regardless of what those CEOs want, (and even if you want to argue they're heavily influential in government policy!), legally speaking it's whatever administration that is in power that is legally responsible and will be held accountable for the tying of our currency, a currency that has been a mark of our independence and national identity for 150 some odd years, to our neighbors down south.

And I still just don't see it happening.

I don't just see it happening either, so we agree more than we disagree... I think a NAU would be in place for a few years on its own before the Amero would be implemented. Boiling frog man.

I just believe that the volitility of the american economy will not be a short term thing, and with this will come the NAU.

So, again that is not being an alarmist it's just looking at a real world approach of how these things are lining up.

I'm not talking about chips and lizards like stupid senior is trying to make me look like, and failing miserably.

I'm glad you've challeneged me on this topic and thank you for keeping it civil.

I'm out.