Lets get serious about the swine flu vaccive for a minute

[diva]

What I don't understand is the logic behind vaccine conspiracy theories. Like, what does the government stand to gain in lying to the population?

What does a scientist (a real one) stand to gain from going to school for a minimum of 22 years to obtain a Ph.D, then turning around and actively participating in massive public deception. Not only public deception, but assuming that they've encouraged their loved ones to get vaccinated, they're deceiving the people that they care about.

It's not for money, because most scientists make only slightly above average incomes. It's not for prestige, because most people don't know the names of the people who research and develop these vaccines.

If we're being brainwashed, what's the end goal?

You would think that governments would stand to gain a lot more by having healthy populations who can work and generate revenue by paying taxes.

I don't get it.

I hope someone can answer my questions without talking about lizard people.

[fritz]

you could use a parallel example where governments/corporations control research/funding to scientists/doctors and it doesnt make economic sense to publish reports that are contrary to their desired results

whether that result is "XYZ vaccines not neccessary" or "climate change does not exist" is up for discussion, but i can easily see how people do questionable things when their livelihood is at stake

[-evil-duerr-]

Originally Posted by diva

What I don't understand is the logic behind vaccine conspiracy theories. Like, what does the government stand to gain in lying to the population?

What does a scientist (a real one) stand to gain from going to school for a minimum of 22 years to obtain a Ph.D, then turning around and actively participating in massive public deception. Not only public deception, but assuming that they've encouraged their loved ones to get vaccinated, they're deceiving the people that they care about.

It's not for money, because most scientists make only slightly above average incomes. It's not for prestige, because most people don't know the names of the people who research and develop these vaccines.

If we're being brainwashed, what's the end goal?

You would think that governments would stand to gain a lot more by having healthy populations who can work and generate revenue by paying taxes.

I don't get it.

I hope someone can answer my questions without talking about lizard people.

as far as i can tell most the people who have replied in this thread that are against taking the vaccine are not doing so because of conspiracy theories. yet all the people who are for the vaccine have jumped to the conclusion that we must all be nut jobs for questioning the safety of this medication, as if the government and pharmacy companies have always acted out of the best interests of the little guy. is it really so inconceivable that mentally sound people do question the intergrity of the pharmacy companies and government rather than assuming every single thing they do is for our benefit and our benefit only?
get real!

for the record no I don't buy into conspiracy theories, but I also don't let government and media spoon feed me my decisions that could potentially jeopardize my health just because they tell me i should.

[C_squared]

The sheeple that believe in all this conspiracy theory bullshit are no better than the sheeple that decide to do things at mass level because the media scared them into doing so.

Question everything with some logic. That's what this thread was intended for in the first place.

btw, Sheeple is my new favorite word. THX RAWB.

[b0ld]

I haven't had a flu shot since I was in elementary school. Nor do I plan on getting a flu shot or the vaccine shot for the swine flu... I honestly see no point.. Sars came and went.. along with the chicken flu and some other stuff... I didn't get sick nor did I get a vaccine. Now as much as I believe that the swine flu exists. I think that there are alot of cases that are clearly being mis-diagnosed because our health system is being pushed to the max with not enough staffing and inadequate funding. And as a result its creating fear.

[shogun rua]

good on ya ragga. your kid will thank you later on for not having brain damage or various other maladies with 'spontaneous' or 'unknown' causes, soon after taking the vaccine.

[Krusha]

Originally Posted by diva

It's not for money, because most scientists make only slightly above average incomes.

That is a really easy point to moot.

You're focusing your question in the wrong direction, because it's ALWAYS about money.

Always has been, always will be.

LOL @ thinking this is about individuals

this isn't about most scientists or doctors

this is about big business

this is about big pharma and its corporate tentacles lobbying their agenda through the WHO and into our governments. This is about selling drugs, plain and simple. There have been documented cases in europe where they were trying to get rid of old stock of avian vaccine and just call it h1n1 vaccine. I mean that alone should show you that this is about selling drugs.

And we don't flip the bill directly, but our tax dollars do, so maybe that's why we feel disconnected to the fact that there is an exchange in funds here.

If this was some Dustin Hoffman Outbreak shit, I'd take the fucking shot... at that point the slim chance of mercury poisoning or whatever unknown additives they put into the vaccine to make it more potent seems a little dwarfed vs puking out your liquefied guts. But we're not dealing with airborn ebola, were dealing with a bad case of the flu.

I am a firm believer in the natural resilience of the human body. If you die from this particular influenza, then your helper T's suck and you get whats coming to you. And what are the annual statistics of fatality of other forms of influenza again? Oh yeah using a common sense question like that won't help you sell drugs.

The real paranoid schizoids aren't the ones questioning the vaccine, (well some of them are) but the real problem are the masses who immediately became chicken shit when they saw SWINE FLU PANDEMIC on the TV. I'm talkin 'bout those glade plug-in soccer moms with hand sanitizer bottles in their fanny packs. Fucking zombie oprah drones who bite their nails at the slight chance that something could happen to them or their children. And the only way these people can quell with their fears is to take the shot.

The people who feel threatened by a one in a million chance of dying from a shitty case of the flu are the ones who are paranoid, not me for seeing this for what it is.

Scaring people about their mortality for money is pretty much the most solid business model that exists. There are a lot of chicken shit idiots out there who will gladly pay out of pocket for the illusion of safety. How do you think religion has survived all these years.

swine flu is just business as usual

[Revolver]

Originally Posted by Krusha

The real paranoid schizoids aren't the ones questioning the vaccine, (well some of them are) but the real problem are the masses who immediately became chicken shit when they saw SWINE FLU PANDEMIC on the TV. I'm talkin 'bout those glade plug-in soccer moms with hand sanitizer bottles in their fanny packs. Fucking zombie oprah drones who bite their nails at the slight chance that something could happen to them or their children. And the only way these people can quell with their fears is to take the shot.

Diva read this...over and over and over and over and over and over again.

"Fucking zombie oprah drones".......oh wow thats good.

Fucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesvFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah dronesFucking zombie oprah drones

[mojo]

krusha that brought a tear to my eye, kudos

[ebbomega]

Krusha, you're half right.

The half of you that's right is when you're talking about Big Pharma and media hype. I agree, Swine Flu is a little blown out of proportion and there's definitely some money behind that exaggeration.

BUT, I know of at least 4 or 5 people I personally know that have been exposed to it already, and a bunch of others who think they might have been but never got tested. So it is a prevalent problem and people ARE dying of it.

Where you're wrong is where you say it has nothing to do with scientists or doctors, because scientists and doctors HAVE been saying that getting the vaccine is a good idea if you're in a high-risk group (ie not very prone to getting the flu regularly, children, old people, pregnant women, people who work in places where they come into contact with a lot of people, etc).

What disturbs me however is that the anti-vaccine paranoia isn't coming from any of the medical professionals, instead just Alex Jones minions and batshit crazy conspiracy theorists. And until we start to see a bit more reputable evidence of issues coming about due to the vaccine than angry bloggers and radio personalities, don't expect me to put much weight in their arguments.

True, the vaccine hasn't been extensively tested, but if we were to constantly wait for vaccinations to get long-term results, then by the time it actually gets shipped to the public the virus will have had time to mutate and we'll need a brand new vaccine to actually curb it anyway. THAT is scientific fact and that's why most flu vaccines don't get that much testing prior to being shipped. Furthermore the procedure used to make the vaccine really doesn't differ much from the seasonal flu vaccine, and again the main paranoia that people have about that is coming from angry radio personalities and celebrity bloggers - hardly people I would consider to be experts in the field.

Part of critical thinking means considering the source that you're pulling your information from.

I mean, take into account what you just said about how MONEY is the underlying factor of everything. People like Alex Jones and other such conspiracy theorists operate on the same principles. The more alarmed their viewership is, the more they'll be talked about, linked to and promoted and so the larger their viewership will grow. So it makes sense that they would blow their own side out of proportion because that sells better.

Again, I'm not saying big pharma and the media aren't maybe pushing it a bit more out of proportion than it shoud, but also I'm thinking that the alarmist backlash is every bit as damaging to making the right decision as the media-driven hype and hoopla is.

People can make whatever decision they want to. But IMO thinking that someone is absolutely wrong because they come to a different conclusion as you do isn't critical thinking, it's zealotry.

[Krusha]

I haven't done one of these in a while but I'm ready... I'm just glad it's someone like dave that takes the brunt of my sword.

Originally Posted by ebbomega

Krusha, you're half right.

My so called "half truth" is based on an assumption; your assumption of my value system, (In particular that of the independent media or shock jocks like Alex Jones). Your opinion being subjective and not concluded with any research cannot therefore, be calculated as a whole truth. At best without research your assumption has a 50/50 chance of being correct. Let us play with this variable:

My truth = value of 100%
Your value of my truth = value of 50%

To be fair we will average these values and come up with 75%

Without proper research we can only conclude that you're half right that I'm half right; making me 3/4's right and you 1/2 right. We can therefore mathematically conclude that my opinion is greater than yours.

Originally Posted by ebbomega

I know of at least 4 or 5 people I personally know that have been exposed to it already, and a bunch of others who think they might have been but never got tested. So it is a prevalent problem and people ARE dying of it.

The statistics less then a month ago were 1000 deaths in the USA which prompted Obama to declare this as a national emergency (excuse me while I lol). With a population of 304,059,724 (Jul 2008 Source: U.S. Census Bureau, Population Division) and the flu being prevalent for approximately the last 4 months we can conclude that the figures if maintained will reach approximately 3000 deaths annually. Basically you have a 100,000:1 chance of dying of the swine flu, hardly a reason for panic.

Now let us review some other odds which we face in our daily lives:

Odds of dying in a car crash: 65,000:1
(source FARS Encyclopedia)

Odds of dying when crossing the street: 48,500:1
Drowning? 88,000:1
Fire? same risk as drowning.
Murder? 16,500:1
The proverbial being struck by lightning? 6,200,000:1
(source Search Center - Search)

So yes, you do have a better chance of getting swine flu then being stuck by lightening! Holy Shit! I better start packing extra hand sanitizer.

Originally Posted by ebbomega

Where you're wrong is where you say it has nothing to do with scientists or doctors, because scientists and doctors HAVE been saying that getting the vaccine is a good idea

I can whip up more sources if you want, but lets assume that you're half right. This only further validates my above calculation.

Originally Posted by ebbomega

What disturbs me however is that the anti-vaccine paranoia isn't coming from any of the medical professionals, instead just Alex Jones minions and batshit crazy conspiracy theorists. And until we start to see a bit more reputable evidence of issues coming about due to the vaccine than angry bloggers and radio personalities, don't expect me to put much weight in their arguments.

Have you even fucking bothered to research the Nixon administrations implementation of a vaccinations in the 70s? The vaccine was linked to approx 500 cases of Guillain Barre syndrome.

Those are publicly documented medical records btw, no retarded fear mongering yelling from Alex Jones and co needed. Do you really think that I'm so unsophisticated to take that mans rants at face value? He masks partial truths with his own brand of propaganda to subscribe his listeners. I've researched that clowns agenda in and out. He's always on his radio show telling you to buy gold... and you don't have to look far as to why. Alex Jones's talk show is owned by GCN (Global Communications Network) whose parent company is Midas Resources. Midas is a precious metals firm. They're all business men trying to make a buck off of whoever they can. So, now you've probably learned something else you probably didn't about Mr. Jones, and I'm with you on that one.

Originally Posted by ebbomega

I mean, take into account what you just said about how MONEY is the underlying factor of everything. People like Alex Jones and other such conspiracy theorists operate on the same principles. The more alarmed their viewership is, the more they'll be talked about, linked to and promoted and so the larger their viewership will grow. So it makes sense that they would blow their own side out of proportion because that sells better.

You assumed I didn't take this into consideration. I made no hint of my opinion on this man. I even gave you an example of how Midas uses GCN to herd unsophisticated Alex Jones' listeners into their 40% gold coin mark up scam.

Way to fucking miss the boat Gilligan.

Originally Posted by ebbomega

Again, I'm not saying big pharma and the media aren't maybe pushing it a bit more out of proportion than it shoud, but also I'm thinking that the alarmist backlash is every bit as damaging to making the right decision as the media-driven hype and hoopla is.

I agree

Originally Posted by ebbomega

People can make whatever decision they want to. But IMO thinking that someone is absolutely wrong because they come to a different conclusion as you do isn't critical thinking, it's zealotry.

Money is the ebb and flow of the world ebbomega!
Why do you go to work?
Why do you go to school?
Why do we do anything besides living in the middle of a jungle hunting beasts of burden?

The industrialized world is a system bounded by financial debts and consolidations. Your house, your fucking car, your HEALTH COVERAGE, the contracts to manufacture drugs and the deals that distribute them... it's all about money, get it? You are not a pretty little snowflake. You are a number, you generate tax dollars for your government. Your government takes your bond number and your finance minister acts as your fiduciary to spend it. They have in the matter of public interest, decided to spend our money on a strain of influenza that has a smaller chance of killing me then drowning. I call their bullshit and just because I go against the status quo you call me a zealot. This is not about hearing my own voice, this is reality... you fnk fags like to hear your own voices soo much that you'd rather win an argument then look at facts.


From now on I'm calling you ego-mega.

[rawb]

Originally Posted by Krusha

Now let us review some other odds which we face in our daily lives:

Odds of dying in a car crash: 65,000:1
(source FARS Encyclopedia)

Odds of dying when crossing the street: 48,500:1
Drowning? 88,000:1
Fire? same risk as drowning.
Murder? 16,500:1
The proverbial being struck by lightning? 6,200,000:1
(source Search Center - Search)

So yes, you do have a better chance of getting swine flu then being stuck by lightening! Holy Shit! I better start packing extra hand sanitizer.

i'm not saying anyone is right or wrong here

but if you're only counting "possibly dying" as a negative outcome of the swine flu

getting the flu sucks and can really fuck with a lot of people's livelihood, or complicate other illnesses they already have, which is pretty bad.

[Ragga_Wh0re]

Originally Posted by ebbomega

What I find hilarious is how someone so soon ago was ragging on and on about how much better a person she was than all of us now that she was a mother and is now taking a medical professional's advice towards the wellbeing of her child and throwing it right back in her face.

I'm not really saying that either side is right or wrong, I just think it's amusing how she's not willing to weigh the odds and instead will use it as an excuse to get oneupmanship on someone on an online forum, when in reality the information could end up saving her daughter's life.

But what do I know? I've never had ovaries so I obviously have no clue what's best for children.

It is your beleif that to be a good parent you must accept unsolicited medical advise and not question it.

Please do not confuse your ideals with my standards.

As a parent I have the right to choose what is best for my child, thus far I have made the right choice. It is quite unfortunate you do not agree with my choice, but it is not your choice to make.

and incase you havent notice, I have weighed the odds... hence my decision.

[Krusha]

Originally Posted by rawb

i'm not saying anyone is right or wrong here

but if you're only counting "possibly dying" as a negative outcome of the swine flu

getting the flu sucks and can really fuck with a lot of people's livelihood, or complicate other illnesses they already have, which is pretty bad.

you may be onto something, there may indeed be a higher risk of getting a shitty flu

but fatality statistics are a plenty, and my opinion is that I'd rather rely on the natural immunity of my body, as the risks of death are pathetically low

but if you'd rather take part in a corporate drug deal because you think your body will bounce back faster then go for it

at this point we're not even arguing whose right or wrong but a difference of opinion

... and i didn't even say sheeple!

[rawb]

yeah exactly, i think all of your points are good except for that small example. people need to think critically about this kind of stuff and carefully balance risk/reward.

if one's only reason is the sensationalism-fed "i don't want to catch this crazy mexican mystery disease and die" then they are pretty ignorant and stupid.

[dabbler]

I'm not really on board with 'fatality statistics' when they don't include the time considered.
ie.100,000:1 chance of dying EACH YEAR from the swine flu
vs
"Murder? 16,500:1" <-is that supposed to mean that 1 in every 16,500 people in Canada will be murdered EACH YEAR? srsly? cuz I think not

Canadian Population 2008 32.9 million
594 homicides in Canada in 2008
->
odds of being murdered each year, actually 55,387:1

or am I missing something here? I never took statistics so anyone who has - please feel free to correct me

by the same math (again feel free to correct me here)
Mexico's initial outbreak 1600 confirmed cases,149 deaths in that time
ratio = almost 1 in 10 died. Certainly a reason for SOME concern.

The yearly influenza deaths in Canada are usually 500-1500, (or staggeringly higher if you look at complications that actually killed people.) Are the predictions of H1N1 deaths really lower? Becuase H1N1 deaths across Canada are 161 already and it's not even December.

[dabbler]

also VERY important to note. Canada has an extremely low yearly death toll from influenza, and because of such we are #1 in the world for that low of a death toll. Interesting that we are also #1 in the world for the ratio of population vaccinated.

[dabbler]

- For the record, I've never had a flu shot,...always considered it, but never bothered. I wish I could have avoided the H1N1, but unfortunately the vaccine wasn't ready by the time I was exposed to it. I've had the flu maybe 3 times in the last 12-14 years, and all three times it REALLY SUCKED.

[miss.myra]

I don't get it, if the odds of someone dying in a car accident is 65,000:1then why would you wear seatbelts when you're in a car? Or are people who wear seatbelts also "fucking oprah zombie drones" too?

name calling and/or stereotyping to prove your point is always rad, btw.

[dabbler]

@ Ragga - my comment was actually about your "i don't care if I die" thing as I thought that was a bit odd since you have someone else to care about. I guess the life insurance is there to take care of the kid?

[Krusha]

way to shit the bed jay

i used american statistics, i even sourced them so you wouldn't get confused

so a city with 3 million people would have 181 murders in the year, seems quite high , but definately plausible, considering the amount of gang violence we've had this year, it's likely to be a lot higher.


and the fatality statistics are your chance of actually getting h1n1 and then dying, not the odds of dying when you already have the virus

time to take a reallly looong break off of fnk again

ciao!

[Krusha]

Originally Posted by miss.myra

I don't get it, if the odds of someone dying in a car accident is 65,000:1then why would you wear seatbelts when you're in a car? Or are people who wear seatbelts also "fucking oprah zombie drones" too?

name calling and/or stereotyping to prove your point is always rad, btw.

seriously myra, i was going to log off but then i saw your pathetic attempt of a debate, and at first have to laugh at you (LOL) and secondly explain to you why you're an idiot

putting on a seatbelt doesn't have side effects myra, putting on a seatbelt doesn't expose you to mercury levels that are 25,000 times higher than the toxic amount in a human body, putting on a seatbelt doesn't need long term studies to prove that it's safe and won't harm your neurology.

but really, thanks for coming out

[meth0dical]

someone needs to give this guy a megaphone and a milk crate to stand on in the park

[Courtney]

a few years ago my moms healthy friend went in to get a flu shot
next thing you know, she was dead

that's my reasoning.

[Revolver]

i like where this thread has gone.

lol at you daveomega bringing up forume oneupmanship..

you wrote....THE fucking book on that.