is whiteness an ethnic identity?

[miss.myra]

Hm, to make it simple, ethinic identiy ain't really about where you are, it's about where you've been, it's what makes you, YOU.

[lou_belle]

Canada's culture is based on very little. My mom will argue that Canadians are filled with culture, like they settled this area and set up shop together. But in reality, they have no traditions. Canada has no holidays that are truly Canadian except for Canada Day and Victoria Day and on those days, no one actually knows what we're supposed to do to celebrate our culture except for drink beer and watch hockey.
In other countries, they have wars with rival countries that create team spirit. When a country is under pressure, it creates a new meaning of being together. If they are having civil wars, they focus on religious beliefs much stronger, or if they're from the "north" or "south". In Ireland I'm sure you'll find Catholics to have different ethnicity, cultures than those of the Protestants.
Here in Canada, we have no reason to even remember back fifty years to figure where we come from...everything is just easy going. If you aren't being somewhat competitive, there's really no reason for the average person to indulge in their ancestory. I find that if you pay attention to world news, you'll find your ethnicity to be of more importance. People with strong opinions know their background more thoroughly.

My conclucion to this topic, ethnicity is what YOU make of it. I think that sidekicks example of the black/irish dude that called himself Irish, was indeed Irish...he was more fond of that background. If he didn't want to label himself black, then really he has separated himself from his true ethnicity...perhaps for argumentative reasoning.. To everyone else of course, having brown skin obviously puts him in the category of black and yes, he'll have to explain that his beliefs and traditions are not of that ancestory.
If you are Canadian and you call yourself "canadian" you've obviously lost ties to your people at some point...and now you either don't feel like you are a part of whats going on on the other side of the world involving your true links, or you're just happy to be Canadian and you're a racial pacifist. I truly enjoy knowing my background so I can relate myself to the other side of the world where so much is going on.
That's not denying that yes, in reality, we are all very much the same. Knowing where you come from just makes things more interesting*

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by miss.myra

Hm, to make it simple, ethinic identiy ain't really about where you are, it's about where you've been, it's what makes you, YOU.

i disagree with half of that. and you place an odd paradox into your own explanation: what if where you've been ISN'T what makes you, you? what if it's where you are?

[sidekick]

my paper:

most of us can identify what the terms 'black culture' and 'asian culture' contain. the stereotypical images of these cultures are constantly expressed in movies. the 'token black guy' and the 'token chinese guy' in teen movies all have the same characteristics. the characters in these movies have become racialized, but the 'white guy' in the movie hardly ever is. there is no real 'token white guy' in teen comedy movies. the white guy is just portrayed as the normal average joe highschool guy with no real outstanding ethnic qualities.

what my research paper is basically on is whether or not this view causes problems for society. the view being: that white people really don't consider themselves much from any ethnic group...that the word 'ethnic' dictates something foreign and from a faraway culture. when we go out for 'ethnic' food we are never going out for canadian or american meals, we are going out for chinese, vietnamese, indian, etc...

sure there are many people that still have ties to their european heritage...but there are also many people who don't feel they have any ties to that heritage (like myself). it was actually shown in (i think it was the 2001 census) that 20% of canadians when asked their ethnic category wrote simply: canadian and didn't list any sort of european identity.

but what i've come across in my research is that no one can tell me what the hell that identity is. no one can explain what the 'token white guy' is. and i even read this survey where people were asked to define what being a 'white' or 'white canadian' is and they said things like: "white is just white, it's nothing really".

and what's wrong with saying something is nothing? well, by saying something is nothing you are actually making it out to be everything. by claiming that 'white canadian' is nothing, you are just putting it in the category of 'normal human being' and making every other ethnicity something foreign and different.

here's a good quote from my textbook that i think sums up the whole thing very nicely: "Refusal to 'ethnicize' the dominant group as an ethnicity privileges the mainstream as the hidden centre--the unmarked standard--of intergroup relations". the dominant group here being 'white canadian'. and as i pointed out before you can see this 'unmarked centre' theory in place when looking at the flesh coloured band-aids. someone said before that they now have clear band-aids, but that has been only recently and the standard colour for band-aids is still the peachy colour of white skin. this is a good representation of how the refusal to place 'white canadian' as an ethnicity group just makes it the standard and 'normal' base from which ethnicity springs from.

[mapleleaf4ever]

Originally Posted by Sidekick

i disagree with half of that. and you place an odd paradox into your own explanation: what if where you've been ISN'T what makes you, you? what if it's where you are?

Then that would suck... because I'm FROM Vancouver Island, and I believe that as I was raised there that makes me, me. But I lived in Surrey for 11 years... and I don't feel that I identify really with a resident of there. So I don't consider myself FROM Surrey.

[lou_belle]

Originally Posted by mapleleaf4ever

Then that would suck... because I'm FROM Vancouver Island, and I believe that as I was raised there that makes me, me. But I lived in Surrey for 11 years... and I don't feel that I identify really with a resident of there. So I don't consider myself FROM Surrey.

Dig deeper~

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by mapleleaf4ever

Then that would suck... because I'm FROM Vancouver Island, and I believe that as I was raised there that makes me, me. But I lived in Surrey for 11 years... and I don't feel that I identify really with a resident of there. So I don't consider myself FROM Surrey.

i'm not saying that everyone should identify with where they are currently living. if you guys would read my posts a little clearer you would see that i'm am simply trying to express the view that not everyone associates their ethnicity with their background. you may consider your ethnicity scottish or scottish-canadian or something because you still have ties to your heritage and the scottish culture. however, i don't have any ties to my scottish heritage at all, and i don't think it's fair to say that my ethnicity is scottish if i don't identify at all with that culture. if i went over there i would feel extremely out of place.

i'm simply trying to point out to you guys that some people (20% of the population according to that canadian census) identify themselves as simply white canadian and don't consider their european background to have anything to do with their ethnicity.

[ebbomega]

Originally Posted by miss.myra

Mead tastes awful. You're forgiven though, Swedish guys are so incredibly hot.

Maybe you were drinking shitty mead?

I've had really good mead before.

[ebbomega]

How is it that this thread has lasted so long without anybody mentioning the word "caucasian"?

Yes, we are members of an ethnic group. Just because it's the most predominant ethnic group in North America it seems doesn't mean that it's nonexistant.

[Asheai]

I'm not sure if this is really following the same line or not, but... I believe that the refusal to label ourselves into an "ethnicity" group is more to do with everyone becoming one of the same. Instead of us all being seperated and labeled, we are just human beings. I don't label myself as white, nor do I really have any european background that I can follow. The fact that canadians don't really have anything to make them special is, I think, in itself special. We are a bit of everything - the "melting pot"; we are what the world should be - a bit of everyone, doing what they wish with no strings attached due to their skin colour or what religion they follow. Anyways, that's just my little bit of opinion.
~ Asheai

[Rhianna]

Originally Posted by miss.myra

It's all about your descent, yo.


I could just be a white girl, but I'll always identify myself with my background which is Scottish/Northern European.

W/ Myra here. I think of myself as British/Estonian. It's what I grow up w/. Both sides of my family are still very tight w/ their roots.

I'd be really sad if they didn't keep their traditions.

I will never forgive my mum and grandmother for not teaching me to speak estonian, I swear it's so they can talk about things and have it go over my head.

[Moon]

most of us can identify what the terms 'black culture' and 'asian culture' contain. the stereotypical images of these cultures are constantly expressed in movies. the 'token black guy' and the 'token chinese guy' in teen movies all have the same characteristics. the characters in these movies have become racialized, but the 'white guy' in the movie hardly ever is. there is no real 'token white guy' in teen comedy movies. the white guy is just portrayed as the normal average joe highschool guy with no real outstanding ethnic qualities.

hmmmm.... i think thats pretty ignorant. i definetly know what you're talking about but its such a shallow perspective imo. one who would define a black guy as a token black guy from black culture probably knows little about black culture as a whole. same with "the token white guy". i guess it comes down to the definition of ethnicity and how you are going to stand by it. hehe following up on my breakdown of the 3 elements of ethnicity (hehe if i was writing this paper i would probably focus on those elements to determine what ethnicity one belongs to), race, food and language, it is arguable to say that the one who labels someone else as the token white guy is obviously either unaware or ignorant.

what my research paper is basically on is whether or not this view causes problems for society. the view being: that white people really don't consider themselves much from any ethnic group...that the word 'ethnic' dictates something foreign and from a faraway culture. when we go out for 'ethnic' food we are never going out for canadian or american meals, we are going out for chinese, vietnamese, indian, etc...

i definetly agree that the perspective can be potentially problematic. but this problem only really exists in north america since there are so many different people from pretty much every single country in the world living here. but since we have all been congragated in this continent for quite some time now, we are all gradually learning about other people's cultures, why our families left etc etc... it could even be a very good thing and people can become more worldly aware. i know since coming to canada i've learned alot more from socializing with pretty much everyone in every race and ethnic background. sometimes it has caused me to disapprove of certain cultural customs and critically compare them. but i wouldn't of had the chance if i stayed in asia.

sure there are many people that still have ties to their european heritage...but there are also many people who don't feel they have any ties to that heritage (like myself). it was actually shown in (i think it was the 2001 census) that 20% of canadians when asked their ethnic category wrote simply: canadian and didn't list any sort of european identity.

i hear ya on that. i'll bet so many canadians and americans (more so canadians) are totally confused about their heritage. i can imagine if your family has been here for a couple of generations, you would probably find it hard to relate to you traditional heritage you supposedly come from

but what i've come across in my research is that no one can tell me what the hell that identity is. no one can explain what the 'token white guy' is. and i even read this survey where people were asked to define what being a 'white' or 'white canadian' is and they said things like: "white is just white, it's nothing really".

from my own perspective i can see the divisions in white people.... like the spansih and people from the mediterraian area look quite distinct from someone from Norway. etc etc...

here's a good quote from my textbook that i think sums up the whole thing very nicely: "Refusal to 'ethnicize' the dominant group as an ethnicity privileges the mainstream as the hidden centre--the unmarked standard--of intergroup relations". the dominant group here being 'white canadian'. and as i pointed out before you can see this 'unmarked centre' theory in place when looking at the flesh coloured band-aids. someone said before that they now have clear band-aids, but that has been only recently and the standard colour for band-aids is still the peachy colour of white skin. this is a good representation of how the refusal to place 'white canadian' as an ethnicity group just makes it the standard and 'normal' base from which ethnicity springs from.

i'm lost.... hahahahaha

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by k-pryde

hmmmm.... i think thats pretty ignorant. i definetly know what you're talking about but its such a shallow perspective imo. one who would define a black guy as a token black guy from black culture probably knows little about black culture as a whole. same with "the token white guy". i guess it comes down to the definition of ethnicity and how you are going to stand by it. hehe following up on my breakdown of the 3 elements of ethnicity (hehe if i was writing this paper i would probably focus on those elements to determine what ethnicity one belongs to), race, food and language, it is arguable to say that the one who labels someone else as the token white guy is obviously either unaware or ignorant.

i think you sort of misunderstood me on this one. i was basically saying how most movies racialize other characters, but never the white characters. teen movies almost always deal with the examinations and exploitation of the stereotypes from other ethnicities and hardly ever examine the 'white guy'...it's always the black guy, or the asian guy. the 'white guy' is just portrayed as the 'normal' guy without any real particular cultural identity...he's just...there. see what i mean now? i wasn't saying that we should look at the stereotypes of black and asian cultures in those teen movies and say that those are the real cultures, but what i'm saying is...it's problematic that it's always these other ethnicities that are being examined in film and the 'white guy' is hardly ever racialized and examined like they are.

[ebbomega]

I'm scottish.

My concept of "ethnic food" is haggis and IRN-BRU.

---

The most common name in the world is "Mohammad".

White people aren't even the most populous in the world. We just seem to make the biggest noise.

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by k-pryde

i'm lost.... hahahahaha

okay, let me explain the basis of my paper again. here are some other quotes from my text book that explains things further:

"Denial of white ethnicity may have the effect of elevating white experience as the universal or the norm rather than just another manifestation of the human experience."

basically, what this quote says, is that the denial of 'whiteness' as an ethnic identity makes it out to be the norm or standard from which all other ethnic groups are judged from. metaphorically speaking, it would be like having a sheet of white paper where you colour on top of it. the colours on the paper would represent the other ethnicities of the world, and denying 'white' to be an ethnicity would compare it to the paper on which the other ethnic groups are drawn instead of just another colour in the picture of ethnicity.

[wum]

so what would be better for society? assert "whiteness" or say it doesn't exist?

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by wum

so what would be better for society? assert "whiteness" or say it doesn't exist?

by thinking about 'white canadian' as a distinct ethnic group it would be then included in the mosaic of other ethnicities living in this country instead of the backdrop on which all these other ethnicities are placed upon.

edit: therefore, you can rethink things like the 'flesh' coloured white skin band-aids. if 'whiteness' was treated on the same level as other ethnicities in canada then this presumption that 'standard' band-aid colour be white would be discriminatory. but as it stands now most people don't believe that white band-aids to be discriminatory because that is just the 'normal' colour. once we see white as part of the spectrum of colours in our world, instead of the paper on which the other colours are drawn then we will have an easier time at limiting and eliminating discrimation.

[ebbomega]

Originally Posted by wum

so what would be better for society? assert "whiteness" or say it doesn't exist?

Incorporate it?

Like we seem to have?

Why is this being stressed? We live in a culture. Therefore we interact with different people within the culture. The culture has a set of rules, some are bendable, some breakable, some face consequences for either.

But I think it still comes down to: What does it really matter?

[wum]

Originally Posted by Sidekick

by thinking about 'white canadian' as a distinct ethnic group it would be then included in the mosaic of other ethnicities living in this country instead of the backdrop on which all these other ethnicities are placed upon.

edit: therefore, you can rethink things like the 'flesh' coloured white skin band-aids. if 'whiteness' was treated on the same level as other ethnicities in canada then this presumption that 'standard' band-aid colour be white would be discriminatory. but as it stands now most people don't believe that white band-aids to be discriminatory because that is just the 'normal' colour. once we see white as part of the spectrum of colours in our world, instead of the paper on which the other colours are drawn then we will have an easier time at limiting and eliminating discrimation.

and then we'll have our own tv channels, fraternaties, lobby groups, clothing lines, and music.

[miss.myra]

Are all the asian people in asia just 'asian'? No.

They are Chinese, Indian, Korean, etc. etc. etc.

An Asian person from South Asia is not going to be the same as someone from Western Asia.

See the point I am trying to make?

[wum]

^ are there different ethnic groups in Scotland?

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by miss.myra

Are all the asian people in asia just 'asian'? No.

They are Chinese, Indian, Korean, etc. etc. etc.

An Asian person from South Asia is not going to be the same as someone from Western Asia.

See the point I am trying to make?

yes, i see the point exactly. i am making the same one. a white scottish person is going to have a different cultural identity from someone who identifies as a white canadian person. so why is there such a resistance on here to be labelled 'white canadian'? you said before that you didn't want to be just another white canadian. well, what exactly does that mean? where does that leave people like myself and 20% of the other canadians in the census that just identified as 'canadian'?

the point i was trying to make, however, is not the technical aspects of grouping people together and defining the lines between ethnicity...it is the problem in labelling an entire group of people as just 'average' or 'normal' or without a real identity. if i don't identify with my european heritage then what? i'm just another white canadian? i'm just your average guy? the problem in that, like i said before, lies in the fact that it makes 'white canadian' just the normal standard and outside the realm of ethnicity.

[Moon]

Originally Posted by Sidekick

okay, let me explain the basis of my paper again. here are some other quotes from my text book that explains things further:

"Denial of white ethnicity may have the effect of elevating white experience as the universal or the norm rather than just another manifestation of the human experience."

basically, what this quote says, is that the denial of 'whiteness' as an ethnic identity makes it out to be the norm or standard from which all other ethnic groups are judged from. metaphorically speaking, it would be like having a sheet of white paper where you colour on top of it. the colours on the paper would represent the other ethnicities of the world, and denying 'white' to be an ethnicity would compare it to the paper on which the other ethnic groups are drawn instead of just another colour in the picture of ethnicity.

ooooooook i'm starting to see what you're really talking about...

i think the point about having white people (i'd say american people) as the norm for comparison is definetly out there. and i guess it has alot to do with american hegemony in media and i guess global capitalism. the whole world is influenced by american culture at the moment through food (mcdonalds, coca cola), through entertainment (music, film), through their military powers, their political influence etc etc. and in movies for sure, made by white americans, you will see that the script relates more-so in the perspective of the white protagonist. in other countries, white americans can look like complete aliens who just don't relate to their foreign protagonist.

anyhow what course is this? film?

[lou_belle]

Originally Posted by Sidekick

you may consider your ethnicity scottish or scottish-canadian or something because you still have ties to your heritage and the scottish culture. however, i don't have any ties to my scottish heritage at all, and i don't think it's fair to say that my ethnicity is scottish if i don't identify at all with that culture. if i went over there i would feel extremely out of place.

Sidekick??? how can you say that you don't consider it fair to say you're of Scottish enthnicity because you've lost your ability to identify with the Scots? It's fairly technical...you're Scottish! The culture you find yourself practicing...white canadian...in my opinion, comes with a feeling of emptiness. You'll always have roots deep in Scotland. I bet your perspective would change if you actually went to Scotland, the minute a person has a chance to belong, they'll take it. You'll be telling everyone over there that your Scottish canadian..no doubt*
Hmm...that's why people over here tend to call themselves Canadian...they just want to belong..but I personally would opt to be a little more insightful than to be woven into the melting pot with no real tradition or culture. Think about how fun it would be to finally meet people that live where your families ORIGINATEs from* The older ethnic variaties from Europe are more colorful and hold more true connections than that of modern day American/Canadians, don't sell yourself short..you ARE Scotish Canadian~

*blah Blah BLAH! GO CANUCKS!! HAHAHA...those hockey players aren't even Canadian...they're all Europeans!

[robyn]

I don't know. I've been back to England and I still identify with the old family homestead and cattle ranch up in the Lillooet area more.

I'm nothing like the Brits. They put corn on the pizza!