too much school

[Leviathan]

That was my point. Unless you have the initial 200 grand, then you will be borrowing the money, ie going into debt. Its not much different than investing in your education. :) I was just saying that if it were that easy to do in a year and a half, alot more people would be doing it.

It takes time to make the proper contacts and build up the skills to do such stuff, but I toally see where your coming from.

Originally Posted by gusto

It's more dedication and hard work than skill, though. Anyone can drywall, you'll just be able to do it faster and better after a while. You can always call in specialists or friends to help with what you can't do. You don't need an initial 200 grand, that's what a mortgage is for. It's a great way to make money, just not my thing.

[mux]

Originally Posted by gusto

I wouldn't say a waste. It might not land you the best job, but a career is not the only reason to pursue higher education.

An arts degree isn't higher education, it's another four years of highschool.

University is the time where you get to say "ok, what am I actually interested in learning about", and get to do it - if you don't know what interests you yet, spend a few years working or travelling and sort that part out.

(I know I sound harsh, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate... but seriously, I saw too many friends work summers doing customer service help lines or scooping ice cream or something to pay for university, only to graduate with an arts degree and find out that the only jobs they could get were doing customer help lines or scooping ice cream...)

[Gusto]

Originally Posted by mux

University is the time where you get to say "ok, what am I actually interested in learning about", and get to do it - if you don't know what interests you yet, spend a few years working or travelling and sort that part out.

and what if you're interested in arts? haa, i know, i play devil's advocate a lot too. all i'm saying is that education is never a waste of time. the time might have been spent better, but you're still coming out with something useful, whether you use it to land an awesome job or to able to carry on a conversation about something you're interested in.

[Leviathan]

You can go into teaching with an arts degree. I think the problem is not with the degree itself but with the people who tend to take the degree. As previously stated, there tends to be alot of people who just go to school for the hell of it as opposed to actually having an end objective. So if you want to become a teacher or something like that a B.A. might be the way to go.

[wum]

Originally Posted by Leviathan

It seems to me the majority if people bashing an education are the ones who haven't gotten one :) Trades are fine, you can make lots of money doing them but certain professions you just can't learn from an apprenticeship. It would be pretty hard for a non-educated person to jump into my work setting and be at all productive.

i'm not comparing an uneducated person versus an educated person. I'm saying wouldn't it be more efficient to take on a young person, say 18 years old, apprentice him for the same amount of time it takes for another 18 year old to go through something like 10 years of post-secondary to become a doctor. The former is getting hands hands on knowledge, and isn't indebting himself throughout this whole time. The other guy has to go through an all or nothing deal, because if he doesn't get that illustrious degree he wouldn't even be legally qualified to diagnose a cold.

Of course in the former case the employer doesn't have to pay the very much, since they could start off as simple assistants. The same could done through a corporate organization.

[Leviathan]

Certain industries apprenticing works well in, others it doesn't. Certain industries such as medicine needs to be governed somehow. Its alot easier to govern big universities and their curriculum then it is to make sure a doctor is teaching his apprentice properly. Nevermind the time it would take to teach the apprentice.

It takes new grads a good 6 months to get caught up to speed where I work, an 18 year old fresh out of school would be able to mop the floors, we just simply don't have the time or money to waste on an engineer holding his hand. If the government subsidized us for his education that might be a different story but even then it would be hard to justify teaching calculus to someone in order to make him productive :)

On a side note, alot of schools do have a co-op program, granted it doesn't give all that much experience.

I think what your saying though is done in other countries alot more than it is here.

[bungoshlung]

this is kinda discouraging for someone taking arts, such as myself :(

i'm working towards a crim degree, am i really that useless?

[Bobby_T]

You guys are missing out the part where you get to learn about yourself and the experiences that aren't offered anywhere else in life other than University.

Poll people with degrees and I'll bet a large majority will say the best time of their lives was in University.

Personally, there is only one place I can see myself in the future: working as a professional

This means I need a ton of education and I'm ok with that. If you aren't ok with getting a ton of education then you probably shouldn't be a professional anyways.

PS: For those of you saying I'll never use the stuff I learn in school, there should be an apprenticeship program blah blah blah.... I bet you are the type that didn't read the whole chapter in highschool. You only read _just_ enough to do the homework.

My point is: there does exist a straightline, least effort freeway to any objective but you miss out on all of the beautiful views and crazy curves that the long and winding road can take you through.

[wum]

Originally Posted by Leviathan

Certain industries apprenticing works well in, others it doesn't. Certain industries such as medicine needs to be governed somehow. Its alot easier to govern big universities and their curriculum then it is to make sure a doctor is teaching his apprentice properly. Nevermind the time it would take to teach the apprentice.

you don't need government to regulate safety. The freemarket is good enough. Independant watch dog groups like Consumers Digest could do the job at no cost to the taxpayer. Moreover, they're less susceptible to corruption than the FDA since they make their money on honest reporting, while the income of government agencies are guaranteed. Of course as the consumer becomes more savvy, they will only trust reputation. Some snake oil salesman would have no luck getting business as opposed to someone who has a track record of success, so standards remain high if not higher.

Originally Posted by Leviathan

It takes new grads a good 6 months to get caught up to speed where I work, an 18 year old fresh out of school would be able to mop the floors, we just simply don't have the time or money to waste on an engineer holding his hand. If the government subsidized us for his education that might be a different story but even then it would be hard to justify teaching calculus to someone in order to make him productive :)

Socialist! i guess it wouldn't work too well for your industry . I'm just espousing deregulation mostly though.

I'm trying to find a way to get your "education" primarily through work in a way that you're useful to your employer and making your own money.

not a fan of school i guess :p

Originally Posted by Leviathan

On a side note, alot of schools do have a co-op program, granted it doesn't give all that much experience.

I think what your saying though is done in other countries alot more than it is here.

coo

[wum]

Originally Posted by BoBBy_T

You guys are missing out the part where you get to learn about yourself and the experiences that aren't offered anywhere else in life other than University.

if you want to go to school for the sake of learning or partying, good for you.

I'm just talking about the most efficient way to gain employment though.

[acidic_liquid]

Hmmm so are Applied Science degrees worthless too?

[axion]

Originally Posted by BoBBy_T

You guys are missing out the part where you get to learn about yourself and the experiences that aren't offered anywhere else in life other than University.

Poll people with degrees and I'll bet a large majority will say the best time of their lives was in University.

Come on, that's pretty short-sighted to say. The best time of anyone's life is between the ages of 18-25, whether they spend that time in university or not. Most of the people i know have learned more about themselves through travelling or going through hard times trying to provide for themselves, rather than going to university.

[decypher]

Yeh well maybe the people who are getting degrees dont wanna work in trades, ever think of that? An idiot who does either is still going to be unsucessful, if your smart you'll use your education to get your somewhere. The people who just get a BA without any direction, just doing the homework and getting the degree obviously aren't going to find a job. It's all about how you use your resources and the choices you make.

[mux]

Originally Posted by BoBBy_T

Poll people with degrees and I'll bet a large majority will say the best time of their lives was in University.

Heh - that's 'cause a lot of people are conditioned to think that when they're done their degree, it's time to settle down, get married, have kids, and spend the next 20 years drinking beer, watching 'Survivor' and remembering how cool they were in college.

I'm 29 last month, and since highschool, each subsequent year has been the best year of my life. You only get old when you stop dancing.

[-ff-]

Originally Posted by mux

Heh - that's 'cause a lot of people are conditioned to think that when they're done their degree, it's time to settle down, get married, have kids, and spend the next 20 years drinking beer, watching 'Survivor' and remembering how cool they were in college.

Ironically, its exactly the other way around for me. I work so hard at school that I dont have a life. I'm all ready to un-settle down as soon as I graduate (2 weeks!!!).

Then its like, five-year bender time.

[Goodfellow]

Originally Posted by Leviathan

You make is sound like its easy to buy and flip houses. What skills are you going to get in a year and a half that are going to allow you to renovate houses and flip them? Most people who do that don't take any courses and have been in the construction industry for more than a year and a half. Where are you going to get the initial 200 grand + to buy the first house? Sounds like debt to me. I'm not saying your wrong I'm just saying that you haven't seen the other side either.

The rich people in this world DO usually have somewhat of an education despite what you may think.

ok i was just making a really generalized statement in my first post. i also never said it was easy. my dad just happens to know friends who have taken the exact route i'm gunna take and are all rich. my dad has the money to buy my first house, he wants to help me originally then set me off on my own.

what skills am i gunna learn? i'm going to talk to the guy at bcit about that on tuesday. carpentry, management courses..

[mux]

You know, a few months ago I had a friend of a friend over to my place, and his is an interesting story:

Graduated highschool in Calgary, moved out to Van Island. Got an apprenticeship with a boat repair shop on a marina. Worked there for a year or two, saved up a few grand, then put a downpayment on a 35' sailboat, and moved into it. No more rent, just boat payments of a hundred bucks a month.

Lived on the sailboat and worked in the marina for a couple more years, until it was paid off. Used the boat as collateral, and put a down payment on a small house.

Worked and lived for a few more years, then the old guy that owned the repair shop wanted to retire, so the guy put his boat and his house up as collateral, and bought the business.

Worked for a few more years, hired some underlings to run the repair place, put it all up as collateral, got a loan and opened a coffee shop. Two years later, opened another coffee shop.

Anyway, long story short - he's 33 now, fully owns his own boat, car, house, boat repair shop and two successful coffee shops, and is now giving jobs to his highschool friends. If you're smart and willing to make sacrifices and work hard for what you want, you can get it.

[-Dubs-]

school... yeah i feel for ya because i got 5 day's a week day time, 7:30 till either 12:30 or 3:30........ then 3 night school classes....

ROUGH!!!!!! seriously rough..... but w/e it is hard now but it is all relative, harder now = out earlier.

[dapimpstress]

no school. i just work 45 hours a week. *shrugs*

[yoko*]

Originally Posted by -ff-

Fuck grad school.
If there's one thing I learned doing honours its that I dont want to spend the rest of my life in academia.

So I guess I did learn something useful in school.

Too bad for you then, it really was a waste of money. I'm a year away from completing my studies but if there's anything that I have learned it's the complete opposite: that I enjoy learning and I'm pretty damn good at school.

not that that amounts to anything!

[esoter1c]

Rook At Me I Was Experred From 8 Different High Schoors.

Now I'm A Freemason !

Hahahhahahahahaa !

I Rure Da Worrd !!!!!!!

[Leviathan]

Makes more sense now, contacts and help never hurt anyone :)

Originally Posted by GoodFlow

ok i was just making a really generalized statement in my first post. i also never said it was easy. my dad just happens to know friends who have taken the exact route i'm gunna take and are all rich. my dad has the money to buy my first house, he wants to help me originally then set me off on my own.

what skills am i gunna learn? i'm going to talk to the guy at bcit about that on tuesday. carpentry, management courses..