The importance of owning guns in a free society

[wum]

Originally Posted by SEAN!

I highly doubt that a handful of largely untrained civilians with firearms will be able to resist an oppressive government utilizing highly trained and well armed professional soldiers.

Iraq insurgency seems to be holding the US at bay

[automatic]

Originally Posted by wum

although you should know that it takes on average 14 minutes for the popo to respond to a 911 call. guns are for your protection too. look at Switzerland.

look at the states, they've got a high proportion of gun ownership just like switzerland, and it's sure helping to drive down their violent crime rates isn't it?

[wum]

Originally Posted by automatic

i've tried to get wum to see this time and time again, but here goes.

there's a little rule in the scientific world that states "correlation is not equal to causation".

it goes something like this...

it's pretty easy to prove a correlation between drinking milk and being a murderer because pretty much 100% of murderers drank milk at some point in their lives. there's a definite and strong correlation between drinking milk and being a killer.

so is drinking milk the cause of murder? no. there's a correlation, but you can't prove causation.

in order to prove causation you have to eliminate all of the other possible causes from the equation. to do this you have to take in to account all of the other situations. if you just look strictly at "drinking milk" vs. not drinking milk, and then look at what happens it's pretty obvious that drinking milk doesn't make any difference.

in other words...

you can't just throw out a couple of examples of countries that restrict gun use and also happen to be totalitarian to make your argument, you have to look at all countries...so what about canada? do we have more or less freedoms than countries with less gun control. one could argue that in many ways we have more freedom here than in the states, we certainly have a far smaller proportion of our population in jail. what about germany, or sweden, or the UK, or india? they have pretty tight gun control, are they on the way to becoming totalitarian states? australia had some pretty tight gun controls, are you bemoaning their lack of freedom?

you bring up switzerland, and as an example of a country that has great freedom and great gun ownership, probably in reference to their mandatory military service and the mandatory rifle and ammo that you have to own on top of it. you probably aren't thinking about the fact that you have to produce that rifle and the sealed and untampered-with ammo once a year for government inspection, and you have to go through somepretty serious governement hoops to own anything else. that sounds awfully like gun control to me.

what the hell do you mean by "freedom" anyways? the freedom to own guns? if that's freedom then why did the U.S. "liberate" Iraq? something like 90% of iraqi households owned guns before the war, so i guess they were living free as birds huh?

we figured out a while ago that a certain amount of government regulation of weaponry is necessary. i mean would you argue that it would be acceptable for a private citizen to own an icbm? a nuclear bomb? how about a dirty bomb? a car bomb? a bazooka? land mines? aren't you upset that the governemt is taking away your "right" to own a weapon of mass destruction?

ludicrous, isn't it?

where do you draw the line?

personally i see no problems in having to register guns, just like you register cars, homes, dogs, etc...

Why would you consider the ownership of deadly weaponry a "right" anyways. except for that one paragraph in the US constitution there aren't many legal precedents for the "right" to bear arms. and that paragraph was written at a time when it's framers still feared the return of a british invasionary forces, recognized the need for militias specifically to combat that possibility, and had no concept of what a ak-47 with hollow point bullets would be capable of, and certainly no idea that you would be able to obtain a gun like that for the equivalent of 20 gallons of milk on the black market.

cliffs, cocksmoker?

[wum]

Originally Posted by automatic

look at the states, they've got a high proportion of gun ownership just like switzerland, and it's sure helping to drive down their violent crime rates isn't it?

that's because it's regulated. criminals have easy access while law abiding citizens have to wait. guns for everyone levels the playing field.

[ebbomega]

Originally Posted by wum

i'm just giving ppl a heads up on issues like gun registration :)

No you're not. You're fear-mongering.

[SEAN!]

Originally Posted by wum

Iraq insurgency seems to be holding the US at bay

sure about that? they overran the entire country in two weeks.

[ebbomega]

Originally Posted by wum

that's because it's regulated. criminals have easy access while law abiding citizens have to wait. guns for everyone levels the playing field.

One, two, three, four...

Wouldn’t it be great if everybody had a gun?
Wouldn’t it be great if everybody had a gun?
There’d be no more crime, ’cause everybody’d have a gun!
Wouldn’t it be great if everybody had a gun?

Wouldn’t it be great if everybody had a gun?
Wouldn’t it be great if everybody had a gun?
We wouldn’t need the police no more, ’cause everybody’d have a gun!
(yeah!)
Wouldn’t it be great if everybody had a gun?

Wouldn’t it be great if everybody had a gun? (had a gun)
Wouldn’t it be great if everybody had a gun? (had a gun)
Nobody’d ever get shot, ’cause everybody’d have a gun! (makes sense!)
Wouldn’t it be great if everybody had a gun?

We could go out and shoot things
We could go out and shoot things
We could go out and shoot things
We could go out and shoot things
We could go out and shoot things
We could go out and shoot things
We’d all feel safe, ’cause everybody’d have a gun!

Wouldn’t it be great if everybody had a gun? (had a gun)
Wouldn’t it be great if everybody had a gun? (had a gun)
Everyone’d be equal, ’cause everybody’d have a gun!
Not me, I got me a rifle!
Well hang on, if you got yourself a rifle then I wanna get me a semi-automatic weapon!
You get a semi-automatic weapon and I’m gonna want an automatic weapon!
You get yourself an automatic weapon, I’m gonna get a super-automatic weapon!
Well if you get a super-automatic weapon, then I’m gonna get a
Super-duper-automatic weapon with a cd-rom drive!
If you get yourself one of those I’m gonna get a
Super-duper-automatic weapon with a cd-rom drive, and a big old hard
Drive, and a big guitar amp so I can play btos...
(rants on while the rest of the worms sing)

Wouldn’t it be great if everybody had the weapon of their choice?
Wouldn’t it be great if everybody had the weapon of their choice?
Wouldn’t it be great if everybody had a gun?

(still ranting..)
I’ll go so fast I’ll be able to chase you from here to saigon, and
Then I’ll shoot like little nerf rockets at you and poke you in the
Eye ’cause it’ll have automatic like finger-poking in the eye
Things and I’ll get myself another guitar amp...

- The Arrogant Worms, Let There Be Guns

[automatic]

Originally Posted by wum

US has more black ppl yes, all the more reason to arm the rest of the population

you're an ignorant racist fuckwad.

it's been shown time and time again, by study after study that kids who grow up poor in the inner city, or in the deep south, or wherever they are poor are more likely to commit crimes, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY ARE BLACK, WHITE OR HISPANIC. kids who grow up rich in the suburbs, or in farm country, or on park avenue ar less likely to commit crimes, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY ARE BLACK, WHITE OR HISPANIC.

once you factor out the scoio-economic factors RACE MAKES NO DIFFERENCE TO CRIME RATES.

the only difference? more people of colour are born in to poverty, so they're over represented, and when a black man and a white man stand in front of a jury for the same crime, with the same evidence, the black man is a) more likely to be convicted, and b) more likely to get a stiffer sentence.

i have to thnk you for this, sometimes i almost think that i'd like to actually meet you, hang out, and have a couple of good arguments, and then you remind of just why all decent thinking people should despise small-minded slime like you.

[ebbomega]

Originally Posted by wum

Iraq insurgency seems to be holding the US at bay

sed s.Iraq.Viet-Cong.g
change_year("1970");

Woah! Look at that!

[wum]

Originally Posted by SEAN!

sure about that? they overran the entire country in two weeks.

ya.. give the government all your weapons. then they'll really listen to you

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by wum

cliffs, cocksmoker?

you're just pissed because you're argument collapsed under the slightest debate.

read the post, you might learn something ;)

[wum]

Originally Posted by automatic

you're an ignorant racist fuckwad.

it's been shown time and time again, by study after study that kids who grow up poor in the inner city, or in the deep south, or wherever they are poor are more likely to commit crimes, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY ARE BLACK, WHITE OR HISPANIC. kids who grow up rich in the suburbs, or in farm country, or on park avenue ar less likely to commit crimes, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY ARE BLACK, WHITE OR HISPANIC.

once you factor out the scoio-economic factors RACE MAKES NO DIFFERENCE TO CRIME RATES.

the only difference? more people of colour are born in to poverty, so they're over represented, and when a black man and a white man stand in front of a jury for the same crime, with the same evidence, the black man is a) more likely to be convicted, and b) more likely to get a stiffer sentence.

i have to thnk you for this, sometimes i almost think that i'd like to actually meet you, hang out, and have a couple of good arguments, and then you remind of just why all decent thinking people should despise small-minded slime like you.

oh chit, i thought i deleted that in time

[wum]

Originally Posted by Sidekick

you're just pissed because you're argument collapsed under the slightest debate.

read the post, you might learn something ;)

he usually insults me in some super long winded kinda way. i was just pre-empting i guess

[automatic]

Originally Posted by wum

that's because it's regulated. criminals have easy access while law abiding citizens have to wait. guns for everyone levels the playing field.

but it was regulated in both examples....in fact it's far more regulated in switzerland, so by your argument they should have worse crime.....why don't they?

[ebbomega]

One more thing:

Originally Posted by wum

that's because it's regulated. criminals have easy access while law abiding citizens have to wait. guns for everyone levels the playing field.

It'll level it, alright.

[wum]

Originally Posted by automatic

but it was regulated in both examples....in fact it's far more regulated in switzerland, so by your argument they should have worse crime.....why don't they?

but every man is switzerland must have a gun. Much different kind of regulation going on. One is restrictive, one is positive.

[automatic]

Originally Posted by wum

he usually insults me in some super long winded kinda way. i was just pre-empting i guess

actually, i usually DON"T try and insult you, i save theat for when i'm pissed off. i challenge you to find an insult in my first point, it's just reasoned argument.

i guess the insult posting something longer than a page, thereby making it to hard for you to read out loud, thereby insulting you by showing you up.

[SEAN!]

Originally Posted by automatic

you're an ignorant racist fuckwad.

it's been shown time and time again, by study after study that kids who grow up poor in the inner city, or in the deep south, or wherever they are poor are more likely to commit crimes, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY ARE BLACK, WHITE OR HISPANIC. kids who grow up rich in the suburbs, or in farm country, or on park avenue ar less likely to commit crimes, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY ARE BLACK, WHITE OR HISPANIC.

once you factor out the scoio-economic factors RACE MAKES NO DIFFERENCE TO CRIME RATES.

the only difference? more people of colour are born in to poverty, so they're over represented, and when a black man and a white man stand in front of a jury for the same crime, with the same evidence, the black man is a) more likely to be convicted, and b) more likely to get a stiffer sentence.

i have to thnk you for this, sometimes i almost think that i'd like to actually meet you, hang out, and have a couple of good arguments, and then you remind of just why all decent thinking people should despise small-minded slime like you.

theres also more prejudice and marginalization based on social status like race rather then just economic class..so non-whites are more likely to be targeted for scrutiny an shit.

[automatic]

Originally Posted by wum

but every man is switzerland must have a gun. Much different kind of regulation going on. One is restrictive, one is positive.

...and they're registered and heavily regulated, and if you want to purchase another it's extremely difficult, and if you opted out or have yet to serve you military tour it's almost impossible to get one. and if you want to buy more ammo than what they give you you have to explain what you're using it for. that's also pretty restrictive wouldn't you say?

[wum]

Originally Posted by automatic

actually, i usually DON"T try and insult you, i save theat for when i'm pissed off. i challenge you to find an insult in my first point, it's just reasoned argument.

i guess the insult posting something longer than a page, thereby making it to hard for you to read out loud, thereby insulting you by showing you up.

ya, something like that. at least i called it

[SEAN!]

Originally Posted by wum

but every man is switzerland must have a gun. Much different kind of regulation going on. One is restrictive, one is positive.

how can you differntiate between the two, their both restrictive, anyhting where someone tells you what to do is a restriction.

[wum]

Originally Posted by SEAN!

how can you differntiate between the two, their both restrictive, anyhting where someone tells you what to do is a restriction.

the net result is that in one society everyone has guns, while in the other mostly the criminals have the guns.

[automatic]

Originally Posted by wum

guns for everyone levels the playing field.

it also makes it a waaaaaay bigger playing field than what we have now. your argument breaks down in the states doesn't it? the one country that states gun ownership is a right also has some of if not the highest rates of all gun related crime, from murder, to robbery to assault.

personally i'd rather have reasonable restrictions and a smaller playing field.

i don't even want to play.

and before you talk about "what am i going to do when someone points a gun at me?" do you honestly know what the chances are of that up here? the chances of being involved in some sort of gun-related violence are still nice and small up here, even smaller if you're not "known to police" and the chances of a situation where a gun is going to make the difference are smaller still. i'll take those odds over the states any day. in fact i think the biggest threat to my safety these days involving guns is the increased black market in US weapons on this side of the border, and the only way we're going to be able to crack down on that is with tougher penalties for the illegal possesion of hadguns.
y

[ebbomega]

Originally Posted by wum

ya, something like that. at least i called it

I fail to see how this makes you the victor of this argument in ANY light.

[SEAN!]

Originally Posted by ebbomega

I fail to see how this makes you the victor of this argument in ANY light.

denial and self deception is a powerful force