Canadian/US occupation of Afghanistan:please read

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by Alex

In order to solve others problems, you must first deal with your own. It's the same thing here, in order to really focus on helping other nations world wide, we must first deal with our problems and the issues we have here at home.

but it's not realistic to just ignore the problems of the wider world and focus on our just solving our own problems. we are all interconnected here so the worlds problems ARE our problems, whether it looks like it at the time or not. since we live on the same planet and share the same air we should help each other out as much as we can.

don't think that because the starving people in africa are in africa that they don't affect us in canada or will affect us in the future. 'home' is the world, not just canada.

[sidekick]

fable: i would have liked to read all your post, but i don't have the time. just because you made the font smaller doesn't mean it looks like any less of an extreme blabbering essay.

i'm just going to address the first thing you mentioned. who said i think that western way of life is more progressive and ideal? please don't put words in my mouth. i never said anything like that. the apparent arrogance that you read in my post must have been your own fabrication.

when i was saying that sometimes these oppressed countries need help in liberation i wasn't meaning that we should shove our own beliefs that we have in western culture on their society. i know we've had our fair share of problems with aboriginals and human rights (pretty bad actually)...i wasn't absolving canada for anything they had done in the past. i never said we were a shining example of the way the world should be...we have a lot of problems, too.

but when a country is killing their own people and making them suffer and starving them and taking money from them...i think it's pretty safe to say that they need some help. not in creating our own little version of canada in their country, but to help that country get back on its own two feet. then we can leave them alone. i'm not saying this is what is going on right now, i'm saying that this is the ideal situation. what i believe should happen. and i think with this new mandate that the UN is considering (about helping local governments deal with cases of human rights violations) could be a step in the right direction.

next time you should consider that everytime someone has a different opinion than yours it might not be because they're arrogant and westocentric.

[esoter1c]

Originally Posted by -ff-

1) We don't live in the US.

2) Democracy is not an absolute - its a continuum. You can't say "democracy has never existed" because democracy is not a thing. Systems can be more or less democratic depending on how much of a say citizens actually have in the making of decisions that affect them. In Canada, we have a system that allows a respectable amount of input on the part of citizens - in other countries (many european ones, for example) they have a vibrant multi-party system coupled with proportional representation allowing for even more representation of people's views. More importantly, democracy is much more than elections or even the electoral system. It also includes the responsiveness of governing instiutions to public input and the openess of the public sphere (ie, the media, civil society, and the realm of public opinion). I'll admit that the modern public sphere is certainly not as free as it could be (the existence of media empires guarantees this) but it is far more open than it has ever been before. When you look at democracy as a continuum you can assess how well we're doing overall. Democracy is an ideal - we'll never reach some perfect form, but we can be doing better or worse. I'd say we're doing not bad - but I also recognize that as an ideal it is something we should always be reaching for and that if we forget to always look forwards than we will certainly slip back.

I see what you're sayin', i can agree.

Democracy is a good meme.

I personally don't think being presented a few parties of left and right is adequate, to be called Democracy.

Maybe in its earliest forms Greex may have achieved democracy in it's highest forms.

Today's political spectrum is a rainbow of One Color, where everyone is either for Globalization or they're probably left leaning liberals.

To sum up the point I'm tryin' to make here is: 1)Democracy is nowadays a mask used to trick the masses into a Fascist state of fear terror and a general feeling of being powerless and lost. 2)People don't want to admit they know this systems a lie because it would destroy their whole lives.
3)I don't think I could run this shit any better.

Ps: Canada is America is Canada as far as I can see.

[fable]

Originally Posted by SEAN!

i dont know whose more obnoxious you or number guy, probably number guy he's got you beat on the paranoia factor alone.

Are you actaully listening to what your write? What in my prose was paranoia? -its all historical fact, backed by numerous sources- How was i being abnoxious? by engaging in non-alienating, point based debate, or was i being obnoxious by taking what others had written under careful consideration? Did i not look at present situations objectivelly based on prescedent? or would i have come off more intelligent by stating "there needs to be more killing" or perhaps come on a board without adding to debate, slang a few insults and buck the fuck out? Grow up, you snotty little shit - come by the demo this saturday if you got insults to trade, or better yet give me a call and we can talk in person ill happily come meet you wherever you would like. Add to discussion, or drop a funny i dont care, but dont judge me your weak unbased ininfromed opinion, and if you find this thread in general obnoxious, THEN DONT READ.

shakeel lochan
604.719.7410 you can reach me anytime homie

[esoter1c]

Originally Posted by Sidekick

but it's not realistic to just ignore the problems of the wider world and focus on our just solving our own problems. we are all interconnected here so the worlds problems ARE our problems, whether it looks like it at the time or not. since we live on the same planet and share the same air we should help each other out as much as we can.

don't think that because the starving people in africa are in africa that they don't affect us in canada or will affect us in the future. 'home' is the world, not just canada.

e=mc2.

It doesn't mean you criticise your neighbour then jump the fence so you can show him how to do yardwork the way it's supposed to be done, while your yard is a pile of dead pets and garbage.

I really don't wanna quote manson but, "You can't see the forest from the trees and you can't smell your own shit on your kness."

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by 3507321C

e=mc2.

It doesn't mean you criticise your neighbour then jump the fence so you can show him how to do yardwork the way it's supposed to be done, whil your yard is a pile of dead pets and garbage.

I really don't wanna quote manson but, "You can't see the forest from the trees and you can't smell your own shit on your kness."

it also doesn't mean that you let your neighbours yard pile so high with garbage and dead bodies that it means you can't live in your house anymore. it works both ways.

i never said that you jump in and show them how it's done. i said help. not 'do for them'. if you would reeeeead my post and not assume that i'm some sort of ignorant western loving freak then you would see that what i think should happen is have the UN help the LOCAL governments and the LOCAL people liberate themselves since they sometimes don't have the tools to do that themselves.

i never said go in there with guns blazing and the canadian flag waving around like some sort of religious symbol.

[esoter1c]

Originally Posted by Sidekick

it also doesn't mean that you let your neighbours yard pile so high with garbage and dead bodies that it means you can't live in your house anymore. it works both ways.

i never said that you jump in and show them how it's done. i said help. not 'do for them'. if you would reeeeead my post and not assume that i'm some sort of ignorant western loving freak then you would see that what i think should happen is have the UN help the LOCAL governments and the LOCAL people liberate themselves since they sometimes don't have the tools to do that themselves.

i never said go in there with guns blazing and the canadian flag waving around like some sort of religious symbol.

I hear ya'.

I just think we're imposing on them and they want us gone.

We may be helping but they don't feel that way.

They see us, they see infidels runnin' shit.

Iraq "Insurgents" will come forever and ever, America stabbed the Arab World and it will bleed nothing but martyrs for centuries.

10million martyrs in Iran alone.

I think we should get out while we still can.

[esoter1c]

Originally Posted by fable

Are you actaully listening to what your write? What in my prose was paranoia? -its all historical fact, backed by numerous sources- How was i being abnoxious? by engaging in non-alienating, point based debate, or was i being obnoxious by taking what others had written under careful consideration? Did i not look at present situations objectivelly based on prescedent? or would i have come off more intelligent by stating "there needs to be more killing" or perhaps come on a board without adding to debate, slang a few insults and buck the fuck out? Grow up, you snotty little shit - come by the demo this saturday if you got insults to trade, or better yet give me a call and we can talk in person ill happily come meet you wherever you would like. Add to discussion, or drop a funny i dont care, but dont judge me your weak unbased ininfromed opinion, and if you find this thread in general obnoxious, THEN DONT READ.

shakeel lochan
604.719.7410 you can reach me anytime homie

He just likes to argue.

[sidekick]

^but really you have no idea whether they want the americans there or not. neither of us do (unless we actually went there and talked to everyone). maybe they want them out or maybe they want them to stay and help. we have no idea.

i was speaking more generally as well. not just for what is going on in iraq and in afghanistan. i'm thinking about the many countries in africa as well. i think there is a way that you can help those people without it becoming some sort of colonial thing. and i think it's our duty as citizens of the world to not sit back and watch as those things happen.

we're never going to have a perfect society in canada, so saying that we have our own problems at home we have to deal with first is stupid. we're always going to have problems in canada. does that mean that we should never help out elsewhere? of course not.

[esoter1c]

Originally Posted by Sidekick

^but really you have no idea whether they want the americans there or not. neither of us do (unless we actually went there and talked to everyone). maybe they want them out or maybe they want them to stay and help. we have no idea.

i was speaking more generally as well. not just for what is going on in iraq and in afghanistan. i'm thinking about the many countries in africa as well. i think there is a way that you can help those people without it becoming some sort of colonial thing. and i think it's our duty as citizens of the world to not sit back and watch as those things happen.

we're never going to have a perfect society in canada, so saying that we have our own problems at home we have to deal with first is stupid. we're always going to have problems in canada. does that mean that we should never help out elsewhere? of course not.

I know what I see in documentaries and on the news.

I think I can see the insurgency min. by min. on cnn so i'm quite positive i don't need to fly out to Iraq to see if they really don't want em' there or not.

I agree that yes we as a leader nation should do all we can for those in "Need" but right now we don't need to be in Afghanistan, we're not makin churches n schools we're "Patrolling" "Peacekeepin" basically big bro'n around with big big guns.

Canada right now is falling apart in BC.

Enough with saving everyone at once.

Focus.

Fix a country 1 @ a time.

You don't try and attack/change the whole of the Muslim world.

That's a road straight to Armageddon.

I think Canada needs it's troops on canadian soil unless Canada is under attack and the only country attackin us is America.(Economically!)

[sidekick]

i don't really see how BC is 'falling apart'. we have problems just like every other province (country), but we're not falling apart.

i don't think the media is a really good source for seeing what afghani people really think about the americans there. documentaries are there to prove points remember; the footage they show is going to help that point along, whether that point is to get the americans out or keep them there.

and just to note: i'm not for the occupation. i do believe that if you've made a mess you should clean it up...but i'm more playing devil's advocate here.

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by 3507321C

Fix a country 1 @ a time.

that is such a cop-out, though.

you're never going to 'fix' a country. there are always going to be problems. if we did things one country at a time then no one would ever help anyone ever again. you can't turn canada into a completely equal utopian society with no issues...there are too many people with too many backgrounds and too many types of beliefs for that to happen (just look at this board as an example of the difference of opinion that can happen). it's unrealistic to think you can 'fix' a country.

[esoter1c]

Originally Posted by Sidekick

that is such a cop-out, though.

you're never going to 'fix' a country. there are always going to be problems. if we did things one country at a time then no one would ever help anyone ever again. you can't turn canada into a completely equal utopian society with no issues...there are too many people with too many backgrounds and too many types of beliefs for that to happen (just look at this board as an example of the difference of opinion that can happen). it's unrealistic to think you can 'fix' a country.

Are you saying Multicultural society does not work ?!......

But I love channel M !

[fable]

attn sidekick

Hmmm , I called your agreement to daves comment about women’s rights movement flourishing under occupation arrogance, and you call the questions I posed/and the underlying hypocrisies as blabbering?

I guess both of us started on the wrong foot? I dint realize I changed the font size, but please lets stay on topic, critiquing my display of prose takes away from the validity of any debate you have.

I just want to point out that I do NOT disagree with reconstruction aid pledged by the UN, but the legitimacy of not only US, and Canadian governmental sanctioned military force but the UN itself. The security council in iteself is under a US stranglehold. If legitimacy can be guaranteed (which I doubt) then I will support such action.

Now for your points:

"that being said, sometimes a country can't be liberated without some outside assistance. when a people have been oppressed for so long I think it becomes hard to raise enough moral and power to fight and liberate yourselves. "

--who says? How do we know in the cases of Iraq and Afghanistan? Both nations have been occupied predominantly by either the US/UK/ or the Soviet Union since the 1920 – how can you speak on oppressing governments when the indigenous people never put them in power in the first place? Do you presume to think US intervention actually helped CUBA? Or even HAITI? What has the UN done in Haiti asides from massacring so called ‘rebellions’ that were predominantly women in the poorest of ghettos? Why is Haiti in the brink of yet another bloody ‘election’ Does this sound like we are helping a nation. We cannot find out how a country can fair on its own until they ARE!

"^Dave makes a really good point when he says that you have to remember women’s rights movement groups (or any movement group) is only going to work if you have a government that is going to listen to you. if you have an oppressive totalitarian government of course they're not going to listen to you...no matter how hard you protest. that's just the nature of that government."

Give me ONE example of a Women’s rights Movement that A) asked for help in the form of foreign occupation B) flourished under foreign occupation

At the end of the day, my basis is that our government are not sending forces to occupy nations for sole purpose of ‘aid’ whereas the reality is that ‘aid’ falls short of economic expansion in the ladder of priorities.

Take no offence SD, I apologize if I came of insensitive, just gimme your opinion of the history of both these nations and a shred of proof that the US government and now the Canadian government have the best interest of indigenous peoples of both nations on their brain

Nuff said

[esoter1c]

Afghanis don't want democracy...here's proof.....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4258514.stm

[fable]

the Afghan people (from what i know, i do not presume to be all knowing) seem disenfranchised with the current situation, understanding the hypocrisy of selecting a ministry, updating a constitution and adopting a 'democracy' under threat of combat!

[sidekick]

faaaable:

thank you for making a shorter post. the only reason i said your other post was 'blabbering' was because it was so long and in such a small font and i have no time to read long-winded things like that. i love debating, it's cool, but i have a life outside of reading posts on fnk.

1) i'm sorta confused as to what you're saying there, but i'll take a shot at it. whether or not the oppressive government is homegrown or put there by another country i think it would still have the same affect on social movements. after a long time of being oppressed, whether by your own people or someone else's, i think it would be harder to raise the morale or everyone and get them to fight for a united cause. i'm not saying this is what happens all the time, the world is too complicated for that.

you say that we cannot see how a country is fairing on their own until they are. yeah, that's totally true. that's why i never said we should do everything for the country. do you actually read the posts that people write? if you would please go back and read the last fifty thousand posts i have written in this thread you will see that i'm not a fan of having the UN do everything for a country. sometimes certain nations may need a little help once and a while in the right direction. i don't think that help is in 'occupation', but rather monetary assistance perhaps or advice to political leaders of that nation.


2) i would like you to actually go back and read the post where i agreed with dave. i think you would realize upon a second reading that i never said anything at all about agreeing to woman's rights movements flourishing under occupation as you accussed. i don't even know how you got that impression. i was using women's rights movements as an example of a more general statement, which was: movement groups usually don't have much success with an oppressive government. fascist dictatorships wouldn't really give a rats-ass about a social movement, whereas democratic governments have to at least give the impression that they care about the movement if it has enough support from society. that's all i was saying. i never said that occupation by a foreign country is going to help a social movement along. what's going to help is a good government in the home country that listens to its people.

i'm not trying to be a prick, but it seems that you're inventing a lot of the things that i say. for example, i never agreed that woman's movements flourish under occupation? i agreed with dave's comment that social movements don't do well under fascist regimes. please read more carefully.

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by fable

Take no offence SD, I apologize if I came of insensitive, just gimme your opinion of the history of both these nations and a shred of proof that the US government and now the Canadian government have the best interest of indigenous peoples of both nations on their brain

for the holy love of god i never said anything like that. i never said aaaaaanything about canada or us government having the best interests at heart for those countries. i have no idea if they do! it's probably a little of column a (wanting to help out other countries) and a little of column b (having ulterior motives for doing so). i think i even stated something like this in a post earlier in this thread.

you keep reading between lines that aren't there in my posts. where have i ever said that occupation was good? or that it helps countries? or that we need that to happen? i think i've said the opposite...that occupation does little good, but assistance to locals to handle it themselves goes a long way.

[sidekick]

maybe this would clearn things up a bit:

i'm not debating with you about things that are happening right now. i'm theorizing about how they can be dealt with better in the future.

[AGROculture]

Originally Posted by 3507321C

I'm not tryin' to be a dick but the whole soccer hands story slipped by me.

I've read thew story somewhere but can't find it but here is some links about the soccer field that they used as an execusion stadium to kill innocent women (commited crimes such as being seen in public, etc) and men (homosexuality, theft)

Also some links about how they cut off hands

So even though I can't find the exact story, one could put 2 and 2 togethor and not doubt that they'd cut off soccer players hands, since all sports were banned there

http://www.orato.com/contributorsreg...dy_justice.cfm
http://www.islamfortoday.com/taleban13.htm

Afterward, he went home and wept into his pillow. “I prayed to Allah to do something so the Taliban would leave our country,” Ismail says. “That was not Islam.”

[esoter1c]

Originally Posted by AGROculture

I've read thew story somewhere but can't find it but here is some links about the soccer field that they used as an execusion stadium to kill innocent women (commited crimes such as being seen in public, etc) and men (homosexuality, theft)

Also some links about how they cut off hands

So even though I can't find the exact story, one could put 2 and 2 togethor and not doubt that they'd cut off soccer players hands, since all sports were banned there

http://www.orato.com/contributorsreg...dy_justice.cfm
http://www.islamfortoday.com/taleban13.htm

I can see some Religious fanatic with blood shot eyes coming across some Infidel loving camel humpers playing soccer in the face of Allah !

Pulling out his shiny scabard of Rightousness to right the wrongs comitted so openly by the heathens with great piety.

So yeah, I'll believe that happened..........

Would You believe 90% of television right now is pure propaganda.

As stated by the head of the Pentagon.

I'm still diggin' for that one.

[esoter1c]

Originally Posted by AGROculture

http://www.orato.com/contributorsreg...dy_justice.cfm
http://www.islamfortoday.com/taleban13.htm

I like this Orato site, good concept.

[fable]

. I’m reading between the lines because your 'sitting on the fence' give a solid opinion! and give me an example! I’m asking you ya dig?

and believe me I have an amazing amount of things to do, (between MAWO, fulltime school, student activist week, my regiment of aa+na meetings, plus trying to work off a mortgage, and my freelance design BUT this stuff is important, grassroots yes, but grass roots is a start.

that occupation does little good, but assistance to locals to handle it themselves goes a long way.

jeebus! this wins the obvious statement of day award! No shit! my whole point is based on the reality that current occupations are causing more harm then good, not too mention keeping said occupied nations under a mantle of outside control, and at a state where 'self determination' is ornamental at best. I’m trying to do my small share of gathering support, and I’m not gonna argue open ended statements with headz, while people are dying in the balance

I don't think that help is in 'occupation', but rather monetary assistance perhaps or advice to political leaders of that nation.

hmm I’m thinking I’m understanding you know. You were not replying to me at all? Because the main point I’m putting across is that the occupations are NOT looking out for the interests of indigenous people individually or as a nation as a whole

BTW stop being defensive, I’m trying to get you to think (no I’m not saying you weren’t already thinking!) I’m not being accusatory! I’m taking your comments and running with them to an extreme, because no one listens to the person sitting on the fence.

I was using women's rights movements as an example of a more general statement, which was: movement groups usually don't have much success with an oppressive government. fascist dictatorships wouldn't really give a rats-ass about a social movement, whereas democratic governments have to at least give the impression that they care about the movement if it has enough support from society.

I mentioned before, that before the taliban (the fascist dictatorship you were talking about - actually resembles more of an Religious extremist version of fundamentalism, but I’m being picky) the Women’s resistance movement was making very positive headway (comparable to our own Canadian women’s rights movement AT THE SAME TIME) we have to stop talking about this democracy bullshit!! ours may be somewhat operational, but its ornamental! and subjective! let a country figure it out themselves!

I have more faith in UN interventions in such situations.

the UN is the result of overhauling the league of nations which was created so the victors apres WWII could share the bounty of war. Even in contemporary UN, the balance of power resides in those nations that have the greater power (economic/military) in the general world, this along with the security council. My question to you is what do you believe would be different under UN control?

[

QUOTE]movements in Canada and the united states have more sway because our government has to listen to the people of the country (to an extent it can be argued) otherwise we just vote them out of power. [/quote]

You cant compare Canada to any nation that is occupied (you already know this -sorry) BUT what movement succeeded in Canada, that was unable to succeed in Afghanistan pre Taliban era during the same time? Like I mentioned before the women’s resistance movements, along with other human rights movements were comparable to those in Canada

I’m going to now summarize my major footing, and if you care to debate with me further lets focus on these points as they are the most applicable and pressing at the moment in regards to Iraq and now Afghanistan. If you don’t want, well c’est la vie, but at least attempt to answer a few of my questions I posed to you, if not for me, then for yourself, because it is in these answers you’ll find clarity in the matters discussed.

1. I agree that there are currently nations in the world that could benefit from foreign aid/// I disagree that the agenda of US/UK and Canadian governments , carried out by respective military forces through occupation, holds the struggle for a better way of life in all shapes and forms as their highest priority
2. I agree that the women’s rights struggle, and any human rights struggle still goes on today/// I disagree that occupation of foreign forces sets up an environment conducive to a sustainable social landscape where such struggles to be carried out

3)I agree that under the old rule of the Islamic Extremist Taliban, many human rights struggles were immediately ended under the threat of death or torture/// I disagree that if the US was not funding various factions in Afghanistan during their campaign to fight against Soviet communist expansion, the Taliban would of still come to power.

[fable]

Originally Posted by Sidekick

maybe this would clearn things up a bit:

i'm not debating with you about things that are happening right now. i'm theorizing about how they can be dealt with better in the future.

er, yeah, im realizing that, but even so, there can be not constructive theorizing about future endevours without examining the failures of yesterday. That and you have to be MORE SPECIFIC, relate it to at least ONE event in history, otherwise its only coffee time philosophy (but still relevent i guess?)

[sidekick]

yeah grassroots shit is important. i'm involved in lots of that stuff and am majoring in sociology right now at ubc.

i wasn't saying that you think occupation was good. i was just solidifying the fact that i think it's bad.

you say i'm 'sitting on the fence' or whatever. i don't really see myself as doing that. you want concrete examples? i can't give you any for the reason i mentioned before: i'm just theorizing as to what i think would work better in the future to avoid occupations. some of the things i thought that would be better would be programs set up by the UN where a countries own forces and people would be able to follow and organize themselves under UN help if they needed it. basically just a helping hand to do something that they already want to do. if people are being oppressed and can appeal to the UN, the UN could supply them with the means to liberate themselves (if that's what they wanted to do). i'm all about having people figure it out for themselves, but if they ask for help they should be able to get it (not in the form of occupation, but supplies instead).

we're arguing from the same side of the fence here. don't you see that? i'm not debating with you about anything. i agree with you for christs' sake. why can't you see that. it's like your blind to it.

i even write things like this: "that occupation does little good, but assistance to locals to handle it themselves goes a long way." and you respond by going 'jeebus! this wins the obvious statement of day award! No shit!'

well no shit of course. we're both saying the same thing! i'm not saying anything different from you. i'm not trying to debate with you. i'm trying to have a conversation about what can be done in the future that would help countries help themselves without occupation.

i'm not getting defensive, i'm getting annoyed that you keep trying to make it sound like we're arguing about different things.