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Sep 19, 05
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Canadian/US occupation of Afghanistan:please read
I post this as a result of a confrontation i had with a female teacher at the Kwantlen Surrey Campus, during a day of flyering, and discussion. Her very first comment to me was "Do you not believe in terrorism" and her second comment was "what about womens rights, do you not care!"
Admittedly, as a result of being verbally attacked initially, i was not as civil, as i would usaully be, but i did manage to assume some humility and told her she should probably read up a bit more on the womens resistance in afghanistan historically, how the taliban was put in power in the first place, and how present conditions in afghanistan under military occupation are NOT condusive whatsoever to ANY human rights struggle. She responded with "I read a lot more than you!" and "if it was up too you, all women would be wearing birkahs!(veils)" I just had to shake my head, and control my temper, at the end of the day i felt insulted, pissed of, but more importantly i regretted not being able to have any civil discource with her. I am fully aware of the Womens Rights movements in Afghanistan and across the globe, but i trully believe that history has proved that women across the globe must and have fight/fought for their rights in their respective societies, and without any perceived assistance by foreign military occuaption forces that carrying out their government "agendas" One only needs to listen to accounts of resistance movement in Iraq and Afghanistan to understand that the womens rights struggles are being severely hampered by the military occupations that succeed in implementing the interests of foreign governments and fail miserably at restoring any semblance of social order! this is the site for the Womens Resistance in Afghanistan http://www.rawa.org and i found it extremely relevent/important and the following is an article from a "fire this time.news" issue from earlier this year: [[The instability in Afghanistan and lack of ‘progress’ has not gone unnoticed by the international community or by poor and working people the world over. The occupation forces have no plans for exiting Afghanistan any time soon, but they do feel pressure to legitimately remain in Afghanistan for years to come, and thusly began planning the Afghan federal election. After initially failing to register enough voters; after postponing the elections twice; and after worldwide calls for an end to the occupation before any election was carried out, the Afghan elections were held on October 9th 2004. The elections were rife with scandal and criticism, from election fraud, to faulty procedures and candidate boycotts. Candidates that opposed the occupation were barred from running in the elections. Because of the lack of security, under 400 election observers participated in the elections, making any reporting sparse and ineffective. The biggest scandal of all however, was not over indelible ink or ballot rigging. The biggest scandal stared the world in the face, and it was 26,000 troops strong. The foreign militaries that lined the streets across the country were a guarantee that no "free" and "democratic" election had the possibility of taking place, especially when those forces were campaigning for one specific candidate. And, "surprise!" their favorite won. Afghan Life Under Occupation "Today, three years after the Taliban were ousted, armed groups controlled by warlords use violence and create fear against much of the Afghan population. In previous administrations some warlords even assumed positions at highest levels of your government." – Brad Adams Executive Director, Asia Division of Human Rights Watch, in a letter to Hamid Karzai on December 3rd Ten days after Adams wrote to Hamid Karzai protesting the conditions in Afghanistan, Human Rights Watch, an international non-governmental organization (NGO) based out of New York City, wrote a letter to US Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld regarding US-administered detention facilities in Afghanistan. In this letter, Human Rights Watch stated, "The detention system in Afghanistan continues to operate outside the rule of law. The United States continues to hold Afghan detainees in legal limbo and in many cases incommunicado, in violation of U.S. obligations under the laws of armed conflict and applicable Afghan law." They went on to cite numerous cases of Afghan people murdered while in custody of the US forces. Beyond the abuse and murder highlighted by Human Rights Watch are the daily poverty, homelessness, displacement, joblessness and desperation faced by Afghan people under occupation. Women, in particular, have been served the biggest injustice of all. Operation Enduring Freedom was partially built on the justification of liberating women from inequality and gender-based persecution. After the occupation began, Afghanistan enacted a new Constitution in January 2004. Article 22 guarantees men and women equal rights and duties before the law. Article 44 provides that the state must promote education for women. Despite the legislative lip-service, for women Afghanistan in 2004 is no different from Afghanistan in 2000. According to a broadcast by the Boston based radio show "On Point" aired in April 2004, reporter Amy Goodman said, "But now, two and a half years later, Afghan women still suffer many of the same human rights abuses, and suicide rates among Afghan women appear to be on the rise." The suicides that Goodman is referring to are often horrific self-immolations, one of which took place when on October 9th, 2004 (the day of the Presidential election in Afghanistan). Muska, a female election worker, who suffered an attempted rape while returning home from work, went into her kitchen, covered herself in gasoline and then lit her body on fire. Life for women in Afghanistan, like life for the majority of Afghan people, has no chance of improving as long as their primary abusers are in control of every political, economic and social aspect of the nation. Moves and Motives of the Occupiers: Divisions and Openings With the internal battles raging between various political factions in Afghanistan, the country remains deeply divided. This division may be a potential opening for the occupation forces to maintain control of the nation. Initially one may think "No, Afghanistan will be harder to control with each regional commander creating stalls and obstacles for the occupation forces". However, it is possible to look at this situation in a different light. A divided Afghanistan is effectively a weak Afghanistan. Hamid Karzai, and any other leader in his position for that matter, has no choice but to give all his loyalty to the occupation forces in order to simply stay alive. Karzai is protected by 200 US bodyguards and it costs Washington $1.6 billion US monthly to keep Karzai in power. In addition to the deal with Karzai, the intervening forces are free to negotiate with other equally weak regional commanders for economic benefits, political control and the cementing of a long-term military occupation. Operation Lightning Freedom, the next major offensive being launched against the Afghan people, will involve up to 18,000 troops. According to Washington it will "eliminate insurgents who could threaten parliamentary elections slated for the spring." The effect of Operation Lighting Freedom, beyond defending the elections, is sending a strong and clear message to their opponents; "If you disagree with us, we can negotiate, but if you fight against us, we will crush you." the entire ISAF forces. Canada has also made it very clear that Afghanistan is one of their major and long-term interventions. Afghanistan is Canada’s single largest recipient of bilateral aid, and the government of Canada has pledged $250 million to be disbursed in Afghanistan between 2005 and 2009, for a total of $616 million Canadian dollars since 2001. "Canada is working with other countries, the UN, NATO and various international organizations to provide the security and stability necessary for the implementation of multilateral and bilateral development programs in Afghanistan to pursue systematic reconstruction of the country and to rebuild its economic, political and judicial institutions." – Government of Canada Website, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade. What "systematic reconstruction" means to Canada is a long-term relationship and the establishment of Canada’s role in the future of Afghanistan. Through involving itself deeply in "reconstruction" and "development programs", Canada is able to cement its position in the Middle East and stake out its territory against other imperialist opponents. Sovereignty is the Only Solution Afghanistan is a nation that has endured decades of occupation. It is a nation that has a seven thousand year history of civilization, progress and technological development. Foreign intervention has had a drastic impact of on the ability for Afghan people to move forward and begin a process of rebuilding, in all areas of their political, economic and cultural lives. In order to move towards a future with dignity and the potential for positive change, the Afghan people need full control over their country. After decades of intervention and occupation, the Afghan people have been robbed of their right to naturally develop their society and nation. For people everywhere, who oppose war and occupation, it is essential that we take up the calls for self-determination for Afghanistan. Not only because Afghanistan is illegally occupied, but also because Afghanistan is a symbol of the fate of oppressed nations all across the world that face invasion, war and occupation. Sovereignty for Afghanistan will deal a heavy blow to the entire imperialist system and will have an impact in favor of oppressed nations everywhere. As well, sovereignty for Afghanistan is particularly important for people in Canada to support. The government of Canada is testing itself in Afghanistan and developing its future of increased foreign intervention, war and occupation. People living in Canada must be on the forefront, in solidarity with Afghan people in opposing and fighting against the inhuman and illegal acts of the government of Canada. As well, through the occupation of Afghanistan, we can expose the blood-soaked history of the Canadian-state and their 500-year old occupation of Indigenous territory in Canada. Together with the Afghan people, with occupied people of Haiti, Iraq, Palestine and Indigenous nations in Canada, we can unite against a common enemy and for a common goal: End destruction, killing and torture in Afghanistan! Canada/US/NATO troops out now! Self-Determination for Afghanistan! ]] article written by Mike krebbs // Ivan Drury peace+respect fable Last edited by fable; Sep 19, 05 at 11:46 AM. 
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Sep 19, 05
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i read the first part of your post, but not the article you posted (as i don't have enough time before class).
i just wanted to say how delicate a subject like this one is. i agree with you that the way in which afghanistan was 'liberated' was not the right way to go about it. it was obvious that the 'liberation' wasn't for the people of afghanistan, but more for the people of USA. i think it's right to be suspicious of governments going in and 'liberating' people in a certain area, because you have to take into account possible ulterior motives. that being said, sometimes a country can't be liberated without some outside assistance. when a people have been oppressed for so long i think it becomes hard to raise enough moral and power to fight and liberate yourselves. i don't think that one country going in is a good idea, however, i have more faith in UN interventions in such situations. there was a recent move put forward by canada actually in the UN to force the UN to act when those situations arise where human rights are being violated in other countries...but these interventions by the UN would consist mostly of working with local authorities (ex: African Union) instead of just having US, Canadian and British armies storming the area.
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Sep 19, 05
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Most Afghanistanian people prefer the United Nations controlling their country over The Taliban. Quite the oposite of Iraq.
Of course they'd rather be left alone to control their own country. You're right women have risen up in many societies on their own to gain the rights they enjoy now. But those women who won their rights were not dealing with a government that would execute them if they got caught with even a very minor infraction. We're talking about a government that cut 30 peoples hands off because they were caught playing soccer. They left there hands on the field for everyone to be taught a lesson. A government that banned singing, dancing, music, sports & any part of a womens body from being shown. The punishment could very well end in death. So as I don't believe in occupation, I am glad the Taliban has been taken out of power. I also believe that the United Nations should stay until the country is stable enough to fight off the Taliban and countless other warlords on its own. We must remember that the last war in Afghanistan the USA left earlier than they said they would. People around the world cheered that they have left them alone. But what most didn't understand is that Afghanistan wasn't ready to fight off warlords, and thats when the Taliban took over. If the USA would've stayed until the situation was in control no matter how beaten up they were getting, MAYBE there wouldn't of been such a big problem in the region as there is now
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Sep 19, 05
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^dave makes a really good point when he says that you have to remember womens rights movement groups (or any movement group) is only going to work if you have a government that is going to listen to you. if you have an oppressive totalitarian government of course they're not going to listen to you...no matter how hard you protest. that's just the nature of that government.
movements in canada and the united states have more sway because our government has to listen to the people of the country (to an extent it can be argued) otherwise we just vote them out of power. people in oppressed countries don't have the luxury of re-making their government structure if they don't agree with what's going on.
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Sep 19, 05
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Source ?
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I know the taliban are some bad mofo's, but, they did destroy 90% of the poppy fields. This really fucked witht the C.I.A.'s money. They got rid of the Taliban, now there's 110% poppy fields back. C.I.A. is back in business. (If people are so concerned for women's rights in these countries, look at women's rights in your own country first. ie:Child prostitution downtown.)
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Sep 19, 05
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Sep 19, 05
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Dave and Jake have already said much of what I think. I'll add that I'm also a subscriber to the 'you broke it you bought it' ethos: Yes, the war was a big fucking mistake, and yes, many of us said "we told you so." But its done now, and in Iraq there is a power vacuum and fundamentalist insurgency, and in Afganistan warlords are making a bid for power. If we end the 'occupation' now we will be responsible for a bloody civil war in both countries, and most likely the rise of two new fundamentalist dictatorships. I sure as hell don't agree with the way that either of these countries is being managed now (and yes, I'll agree they're being managed by the US, not governed by themselves) but to pretend that a pullout by US/UK/CDN troops would lead to 'self determination' is a fucking joke.
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Sep 19, 05
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Sep 19, 05
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I’m gonna reply to sidekick, and agro, please take no offence at my comments, as I truly believe that your hearts (like most headz) are the right place – but with saying that, I think there is a bit of an inbred arrogance and ignorance on the part of us westerners when dealing with international matter. I’m at a point where I want to rip out all my hair, but alas I don’t have much at the moment.
Why does stereotypical western opinion hold that our lives are so much more socially progressive and ideal? -when historically we have our own prime examples of "bloody uprisings" against "oppressive governments" I use the massacre of indigenous native peoples across N.America when British/French colonization was first taking place. I also refer to sickly bloody struggles against slavery in the US. -when our very own women’s rights movements had fought to achieve the right to vote only recently in the late seventies (please note* that women did finally win the right to vote around the same time in Afghanistan) -when historically the US has been involved in Iraq for close to fifteen years, and Afghanistan since competing with Soviet Communist expansion – please note* that it was through US aid, that the Taliban was able to rise to power, under the perception that it would aid the US against Soviet expansion. And then after being the "arms dealer" for various ethnic factions that were already on shaky ground in relations with each other, the US pulled out in 94’ with NO foreign aid, nor any support for opposing nationalist groups that were the only legitimate barrier to the Taliban acquiring power? How is it that the western ideology believes that we are instrumental in the social evolution of nations such as Cuba, Haiti, Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, Syria, Palestine? -when it is without question that our respective military forces A) do not serve the general population – General Rick Hillier – Head of Defense " We are not the public servants of Canada, we are the Canadian forces, and we kill people," B) inherently follow orders without questions – specifically non commissioned soldiers who rank at sergeant or below, and predominantly carry out most of the "killing" I must also mention that is now popular opinion ( recent Gallup polls and pew foundation polls state : that only 38% of US citizens support the Bush government + ~40% of Canadian citizens support the Martin government)that "governments do NOT represent the sentiments of a nation as a whole, and work consistently at an agenda that we know little to none about -when to date the current situation in Iraq (which is mirrored by contemporary Afghanistan) includes: 150 000 IRAQI CASUALTIES, 2000 OCCUPATION FORCES CASUALTIES, 37% OF THE POPULATION HAS ACCESS TO SAFE DRINKING WATER, 56% OF THE POPULATION HAS ACCESS TO ELECTRICITY WHICH IS UNDER STRICT RATIONS, A CHOLERA EPEDEMIC, MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF FOOD SHORTAGES/MALNUTRITION, CLOSE TO .5MILLION MEN AND WOMEN ARE UNEMPLYED AND WERE LAYED OFF INITIALLY UNDER PAUL BREMMERS PROPOSED "ECONOMIC SHOCK THERAPY", NO FUNCTIONAL SCHOOLS (BESIDES THOSE THAT HAVE BEEN TRANSFORMED INTO MILLITARY BASES-PLEASE NOTE* FELLUJAH), OVER 400 CASES OF RAPE/TORTURE/SELF IMMOLATION ****SINCE**** THE OCCUPATION STARTED, RISING VIOLENCE AMONGST ENTHNIC FACTION (PLEASE NOTE*THAT THE US OVERNMENT HAS FUNDED ALL THREE FACTIONS AT ONE TIME OR ANOTHER AGAINST THE OTHER TWO BY SUPPORTING REPSECTIVE MILITIAS INCLUDING THE BAR BRIGADE AND PESHAPARAMILITARY – BOTH REPORTEDLY TO HAVE ACTED AS DEATH SQUADS FOR THE SUDDAM REGIME), THE LIST GOES ON!! PLEASE NOTE* THIS IS THE RESULT OF US "INTERVENTION" IN ONLY ONE NATION!! I didn’t even mention Cuba, Haiti, Iran……….. -when most people on the street who "presume" to know that occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq respectively have to do with some form of Human Rights Struggles, when in fact they have never heard of either the Iraq Women’s Resistance (please note* that rumors state that all members since the occupation have been killed in combat) and The Afghan Women’s Resistance (RAWA) nor does a predominant number of westerners have connection with the ongoing growing number of desperate blogs being written, or have been written by Iraq/Afghan students, and/or have no real exposure to popular opinions of Iraq/Afghan peoples who are currently living in Canada (please note* my personal studies, as well as research taken by MAWO, the Islamic Community of Vancouver, the Cuban Solidarity Group, The Haitian Solidarity Group, as well as numerous Aboriginal groups show that close to 100% of Iraq/Afghan peoples living in Vancouver demand the immediate withdrawal of US troops -when the current situation in Afghanistan sees the number of US/Canadian infantry/artillery forces vastly outnumber the Engineering Corps, and Field Ambulances -when the US State Department issued a web statement outlining, that children were able to attend school, when the reality is that 100% of schools have been demolished and/or have been turned into military bases -when the US State Department issued a web statement, proclaiming a just, fairly elected interim government, of which the US government was involved in every aspect of the election, as well as all female members that reportedly elected to the ministry were unnamed and/or are now dead -when the a independent UN commission stated that the budget for the reconstruction of Iraq would be in the ballpark of 54 billion dollars , and after stating they would provide 33 billion of that number, the US had only contributed just over 1 billion TO DATE but has consistently spent 105 million dollars A DAY on military operation, as well as boasting their countries military budget at 187 billion dollars annually -when the Canadian Forces under the guise of "peacekeeping" committed a further 2000 infantry troops on July 17th and have stated to promise another deployment of 5000 full time troops and 3000 reserve troops PLEASE NOTE*AGAIN, THAT I HAVE ONLY FOCUSSED ON IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN, AND HAVE NOT MENTIONED THE COUNTLESS OTHER US/CANADIAN ENDEVOURS UNDER THE PRECEPT OF FOREIGN AID/POLITICAL RESTRUCTURING ASSISTANCE Why in Canada, are tuition currently at an all time high across the nation, subsidies for tuition are at an all time low, Recruiting Campaigns are at an all time high, The Military Spending Budget was doubled to 12.8 billion dollars,(please note* that young adults can obtain a GED equivalent high school credit with a specific time served in out military HIGHSCHOOL!?! And or after a turn of duty, can obtain up to 25 000 dollars towards post secondary education)? Why in Canada does our Government still ignore Quebec’s Demand of Separation, as well as Aboriginal consistent demand to form their own nations, and yet still does not recognize that many Canadian city lies on native territory that to this date has NOT BEEN AQUIRED LEGALLY (please note* that much of downtown Vancouver lies on Coast Salish territory)? Why in Canada do we still deny Iraqi refugees to seek asylum? OUR GOVERNMENT DOES NOT REPRESENT THE STRUGGLE FOR HUMAN RIGHTS. LET ALONE WOMENS RIGHTS ABROAD OUR GOVERNMENT DOES NOT RELEASE INFORMATION ON ECONOMIC EXPANSION OPPURTUNITIES BEING TAKEN IN FOREIGN OCCUPIED NATIONS EVEN IF UNDER THE PRECEPT OF AID, HOW DOES A NATION WITH A FRAGMENTED SOCIAL STRUCTURE, A RAVISHED LANDSCAPE, MASSIVE CORRUPTION ALLOWED BY GOVERNMENTS OF PREVIOUSLY OCCUPYING NATIONS, MASSIVE DEATH TOLL AND A SERIOUS LEVEL OF FEAR AND ANGER MAKE FOR AN EVIRONMENT THAT WILL BE ABLE TO SUSTAIN ANY HUMAN RIGHTS RELATED ONJECTIVE? I SUPPORT ALL HUMANS RIGHTS STUGGLES, BUT NOT AT THE COST OF WAR THAT HAS SELF DETERMIANTION AT THE BOTTOM OF ITS PRIORITES- ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS, AND TELL ME IF YOU STILL BELIEVE THAT WESTERN GOVERNMENT ARE LOOKING OUT FOR THE RIGHTS OF INDEGENOUS PEOPLES AT HOME AND ABROAD. TELL ME IF IM TALKING OUT OF MY ASS, TELL ME THIS AINT LIFE OR DEATH!!! I’m not shitting on yall, you guys brought up very relevant points, and I thank-you for engaging in discussion, I beg of any and all to get involved, whether through MAWO or another group. Just start answering some of these questions that our governments have shied away from for too long! http://www.rawa.org (womens resistance in afghanistan) http://www.mawovancouver.org http://firethistime.net peace+'spect fable Last edited by fable; Sep 19, 05 at 03:07 PM.
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Sep 19, 05
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Imho.
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Countries like these don't need our "Help". They can do it on their own. Every country has got US and Canadaian Politrix up their ass tryin to "Help". We are not helping, no matter how much rice we give them. Everywhere in Afghanistan, Poppies, Because of USA and CAN. Canada is to blame as much as the USA in all this. We say "Oh, we're not in Iraq, we're in Africa saving lives, we're in Afghanistan saving lives...so on and son. Have you seen Gunner's palace ? We are NOT helping. Treating other Nations as if they are children, totally incompetent of running their country, is not a road to "Democracy". These nations are not so gullible as the Pepsi swilling masses of USCAN. They know democracy is a bullshit mask for fascism. Here's your choice (Insert Arab Nation her). Fuckface cocksucker A (Who used to work for (Insert Halliburton job here). and Fuckface cocksuckers buddy that he went to college with and had his first homoerotic encounter with. Who would you pick ?!
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Sep 19, 05
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Sep 19, 05
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Imho.
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I'm not for tellin' other nations what political system the should have. I'm for fixin' our own problems here in Canada, like immigration. I think we should look @ ourselves and realize what we need to do. Pointing the finger @ others n sayin "No do it like us, we're right !" never worx. Maybe you can try and look @ it like me. It's a Holy War, Race War, Oil War just plain ol' war. In reality we're not helping, the whole problem is we're there.
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Sep 19, 05
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We call "fixin our own problems" and "looking at ourselves and realizing what we need to do" "Democracy." And if the problem is that 'we're there' wait until you see the problems that arise when we leave.
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Sep 19, 05
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PPS=Professional Problem Solver. In order to solve others problems, you must first deal with your own. It's the same thing here, in order to really focus on helping other nations world wide, we must first deal with our problems and the issues we have here at home.
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Sep 19, 05
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Yeah.........
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Ps: Democracy has never existed, it's a lie. When you are givin' 2 choices and neither are your own, that's fascism. In America you can pick one Blue-Blood, Skull and Bones member or the other. In layman's terms. Coke or Pepsi when I want H20.
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Sep 19, 05
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people need to stop putting value judgements on this type of shit, the reality is that depending on your perspective the morality of doing anyhting is ambigious. Its undeniable that the quality of life for aghanis has improved since the occupation of afghanistan by the U.N its also undeniable that people had to be killed to accomplish it.
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Sep 19, 05
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its hypocrisy on the grandest of scales, and it masks the true intentions of imperialistic action! The US has been caught in a lie counteless times, what makes you think things are any different now - research the precedent for fucks sake! And we DONT call trying to fix our "problems" DEMOCRACY we call the uphill struggle against a governement that perpetually misrepresents A LACK OF DEMOCRACY! you obviously got smarts ff and by your words you seem genuinely caring about the international situation, but you sentiments are misplaced! seriously! i gotta jet, but ill be back to debate--
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Sep 19, 05
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Sep 19, 05
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Quality of life has improved ?
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This is Illuminatti thinking. "The end, justifies the means." is their motto & Modus Operandi. I'm pretty sure going from no poppy fields to more poppy fields than ever is not a good thing. Opium addiction is rampant is Afghanistan thanks to the US wipin out all the Taliban. I don't think the taliban were theb greatest guys in the world, but they cleaned up the drugs that the C.I.A. makes millions off. There's so much interconnected to these occupations, it's endless. Always look @ who stands to gain most from attrocities and wars. Usually it's those that start it.
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Sep 19, 05
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Sep 19, 05
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Sorry I'm not an Anarchist.
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I'd be charged with hate crimes and Anti-Semitism. I don't see democracy in Canada I see the same families and bloodlines. It's a bullshit system that never existed. They give you 2 choices ! Is that choice ? Not in my boox it's not. http://www.primitivism.com/zerzan.htm
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Sep 19, 05
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you need an "o" in that "bitch" in your sig.............
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Sep 19, 05
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2) Democracy is not an absolute - its a continuum. You can't say "democracy has never existed" because democracy is not a thing. Systems can be more or less democratic depending on how much of a say citizens actually have in the making of decisions that affect them. In Canada, we have a system that allows a respectable amount of input on the part of citizens - in other countries (many european ones, for example) they have a vibrant multi-party system coupled with proportional representation allowing for even more representation of people's views. More importantly, democracy is much more than elections or even the electoral system. It also includes the responsiveness of governing instiutions to public input and the openess of the public sphere (ie, the media, civil society, and the realm of public opinion). I'll admit that the modern public sphere is certainly not as free as it could be (the existence of media empires guarantees this) but it is far more open than it has ever been before. When you look at democracy as a continuum you can assess how well we're doing overall. Democracy is an ideal - we'll never reach some perfect form, but we can be doing better or worse. I'd say we're doing not bad - but I also recognize that as an ideal it is something we should always be reaching for and that if we forget to always look forwards than we will certainly slip back.
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