First Election Debate Tomorrow

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by fable

The creation of safe injection sites in vancouver (which i pray, manages to stay open) transgender bathrooms, aboriginal self governing commitiees (in serious debate over legitimacy) and a large portion of government conceding toward the creation and running of these resources and commitiees is BECAUSE OF SUCH COMMUNITIES FIGHTING>PROTESTING>SCREAMING THEIR VOICES etc etc! Not because of some level of belovolence on their part and nothing much past the need to secure votes.

you're definitly right that most of these issues were brought to the forefront because of small groups fighting for change and for their rights. but, this is where you and i differ, because i don't see that as a problem with the 'system'. i think that's one of the cool things about the system we have...that if you feel you are being treated unfairly then you can form a group and actually go out and change something. it may take some time, but as you can see, it can actually do something. there are many countries out there where you can't do this, or you are completely ignored.

our government is not good out of the kindness of its hard, but its good because of the people fighting to make it good. and thank god there are people and groups willing to fight that fight.

in any type of government you're going to have groups of people that feel unsatisfied. that's a given. there are just too many types of people out there with different ideas about how things should work. the best we can do is have a government that listens to them all and tries their best to decide what is fair.

and as for the gay community thing. well, i've never felt particularly close to any type of gay culture. i think a lot of it is overplayed (pride parades). i guess i just don't feel the pull to go out and be a part of a 'community' based on my sexality. to me it's not a big part of my personality. canada is a big part of my personality and so is vancouver culture and i feel a pull towards that, but not anything to do with my sexual preference.

[fable]

you're definitly right that most of these issues were brought to the forefront because of small groups fighting for change and for their rights. but, this is where you and i differ, because i don't see that as a problem with the 'system'. i think that's one of the cool things about the system we have...that if you feel you are being treated unfairly then you can form a group and actually go out and change something. it may take some time, but as you can see, it can actually do something. there are many countries out there where you can't do this, or you are completely ignored.

our government is not good out of the kindness of its hard, but its good because of the people fighting to make it good. and thank god there are people and groups willing to fight that fight.

in any type of government you're going to have groups of people that feel unsatisfied. that's a given. there are just too many types of people out there with different ideas about how things should work. the best we can do is have a government that listens to them all and tries their best to decide what is fair.

and as for the gay community thing. well, i've never felt particularly close to any type of gay culture. i think a lot of it is overplayed (pride parades). i guess i just don't feel the pull to go out and be a part of a 'community' based on my sexality. to me it's not a big part of my personality. canada is a big part of my personality and so is vancouver culture and i feel a pull towards that, but not anything to do with my sexual preference.

>Perhaps we have come full circle, the dialogue between you and i is reminiscient of when i first came onto this board.

Further still, perhpas there is indeed an oppurtunity to share thoughts and insights into effective political grassroots work and direction.

The difference in belief wasnt so much what you stated, rather its our opinion of what government is and why they do what they do.

In regards to community; i was talking more of the unification between people as a means of increasing the volume and impact of a collective voice, and for matters of safety. The idea that the gay/lesbian/transgender community is soley based on sexual preference is somewhat lacking, because as it is with various other communities such as indegenous peoples, immigrants, specific economic classes, there is the ability to merge on the basis of protecting against oppression.

Obviously you allign yourself with whatever community you see fit, i have no right or reason to infinge on that, but just understand the aspects i mentioned earlier - the ones that fuse people together on the basis of struggle for human rights and against active and structural oppression.

I grew up with very negetive opinions of my own culture and my own skin colour, and even now i walk into orthodox reigeous communities of various muslim sects, and those who practise hinduism with my guard up But for all intensive purposes, as long as their fight doesnt infringe on anyone elses human rights, then i will lend support to whatever struggles against a racist/oppressive government. The same can be said of the addicitons and mental health communites. There are people in the community id sooner spit on, let alone form a relationship with, but when push comes to shove, and there is an apparent oppressive group, i will rally and works towards elimanating the power of said group.

Id like to say, i support a new style of socialist movement, but at the present the distribution of goods and services, takes a back seat to joining the fight for giving basic human rights, and social freedoms that we as humans deserve. The absolute tragic irony of this, is that almost all the oppression that i keep talking about, originates from government. And its the current electorial program that we support in canada that i feel is reactionary to the point of absurdity sometimes.

peace(someday)+respect(hopefully)
shak

[fable]

'kick: you also once talked about carrying out protest in different formats

>this weekend - film festival @ brittania, all weekend + free
check the details

http://www.mawovancouver.org

[sidekick]

i suppose we have to agree to disagree on this subject then. you're definitly more radical in your thinking than i am. i would like to work with the governmental system we have to affect change. although, i'm mighty socialist in my thinking, i also enjoy being a consumer and try to balance both those thoughts. i usually end up voting NDP.

as for the gay thing. i know the community isn't based solely on sexuality...but the thing is i don't feel like i'm being oppressed. i get sniffs of homophobia now and then, but i'm extremely proud of canada and vancouver especially in the way that they act toward gay/lesbians. i don't really have many gay friends, and i'm definitly not ashamed of being gay, i just don't usually identify with the gay people that i meet.

if i felt that my rights were being taken away i would step forward and say something, but i don't feel like that right now. i participated in many same-sex marraige debates before the decision (one of them at ubc, which was fun) and i wrote a paper on the subject last year. now that the same-sex marriage hurdle is over with, i really don't feel any oppression from my government...most of the oppression i feel for being gay comes from knuckleheaded idiots.

[FlorpIncarnate]

We don't need "gay and lesbian rights", we need more recognition of individual rights, which apply to everyone equally regardless of sexual preference. It's not about giving special privileges to a few, its about recognizing that we're supposed to be all equal under the law.

Unfortunately no political party understands this nowadays.

As for transgender bathrooms... wtf? Next they'll be demanding midget doors...

Originally Posted by Sidekick

if i felt that my rights were being taken away i would step forward and say something, but i don't feel like that right now. i participated in many same-sex marraige debates before the decision (one of them at ubc, which was fun) and i wrote a paper on the subject last year. now that the same-sex marriage hurdle is over with, i really don't feel any oppression from my government...most of the oppression i feel for being gay comes from knuckleheaded idiots.

You sound pretty knowledgeable. Are you worried that the Conservatives will repeal the same-sex marriage law? Is there much chance of that happening? I'm sort of worried about it. I know a lot of Christians who are really vocal about getting that law repealed, and I know that they hold considerable clout in the Conservative party, although luckily they have much less sway over it than the USA Christians have over the Republican party.

That would be pretty much the only practical reason that I would hesitate to vote Conservative.

Thank goodness Canadians are less religious than Americans.

[sidekick]

^i think you misunderstand what gay/lesbian right advocates are fighting for. they aren't fighting for special treatment, but merely to be able to enjoy the same treatment that heterosexuals get in our society. whether that is freedom to work wherever they want, or protection from homophobic crimes, or the right to marry who they want, etc... it's not about special treatment of gay/lesbians, but equal treatment.

as for the transgendered bathrooms. it makes sense. think about it. someone is going through the operation of turning from a guy into a girl (or vice versa) and they have the first stage of this done, which is all the outward appearance stuff. but they still have the sex organs of their original sex...so which bathroom do they use? they look like a chick, but have a dick...do they use the mens or the womens? i understand why they would want their own bathroom because if i was in that situation i wouldn't feel comfortable going into either mens or womens.

as for the conservatives repealling the same-sex marriage law. i'm like 95% sure they wouldn't get away with anything. they never said they would actual repeal the law, but said that they would put it to a free vote in the house of commons where each MP would be able to vote however they wished without ties to their own political party. Harper never said what they would do if the vote turned out in favour of repealling same-sex marriage (which i'm certain it wouldn't). it would be a complicated process and a very annoying one for canadians to have to have the embarrasment of taking away same-sex marriage, especially when most other countries in the world are following in our footsteps. i'm not to scared of anything happening on that front.

[fable]

We don't need "gay and lesbian rights", we need more recognition of individual rights,

Specific groups are not fighting for "special treatment" theyre fighting for basic human rights.

What does "more recognition of individual rights" mean to you? How does it manifest itself?

[sidekick]

also, i do believe that in certain situations some groups of people have been so oppressed that they need a little bit of special treatment to help get back on their feet again. for instance, aboriginal people who have had their culture and lifestyle practically smashed to bits might need a little more assistance than the rest of canadians in rebuilding family structure, education, and other things that were taken away from them years ago.

let's say you have two people. you pay person number one an hourly wage of 10 dollars an hour and person number two an hourly wage of only 5 dollars an hour. then you decide that both are equal. to repair the damage done to person number two it makes sense to pay them a slightly higher wage than person number one just until everything evens out...otherwise they aren't equal at all yet, since person number one has had more money he can put into savings than person number two in the past. equality rights are great, but they must take into account oppressive actions in the past that hinder those peoples ability to create a stable future for themselves even with equal treatment in the present. this might be better access to education, healthcare and the workforce.

[fable]

Originally Posted by Sidekick

also, i do believe that in certain situations some groups of people have been so oppressed that they need a little bit of special treatment to help get back on their feet again. for instance, aboriginal people who have had their culture and lifestyle practically smashed to bits might need a little more assistance than the rest of canadians in rebuilding family structure, education, and other things that were taken away from them years ago.

let's say you have two people. you pay person number one an hourly wage of 10 dollars an hour and person number two an hourly wage of only 5 dollars an hour. then you decide that both are equal. to repair the damage done to person number two it makes sense to pay them a slightly higher wage than person number one just until everything evens out...otherwise they aren't equal at all yet, since person number one has had more money he can put into savings than person number two in the past. equality rights are great, but they must take into account oppressive actions in the past that hinder those peoples ability to create a stable future for themselves even with equal treatment in the present. this might be better access to education, healthcare and the workforce.

hmmm, i think its important to understand the realities your talking about, but its also important to not get into stuck in it. The current situation with aboriginal peoples, and their so called "preferential treatment" is an allusion, if you take into the whole context of things, and you do not support the might is right mentality, then really aboriginal people are struggling for what they HAD. Nonetheless our government has the means, the funds, and the resources to ratify the current situation, its really a matter of they dont want to, because its not in their best interest.

[b0ld]

harper seriously needs to know how to speak french....... this debate is making him look like a complete ass....



wait a second.... he is a complete ass..... ahahahahhahahah

[b0ld]

someone needs to take harper off of this debate...... I don't think he has any idea what he is saying
he pretty much said that he supports the softwood trade agreement with the united states and critized the liberals for stopping the americans. ahahahahhahahaha

this guy is a fuckin tool

[sidekick]

eh, not too impressed with the debates. i think martin and harper both sidestepped a bunch of questions. also i hate how there is so much negative crap coming out of everyone's mouth. i want to hear more about the positive shit they're going to do rather than listen to them bitch about other parties all the time. there's only so much complaining i can listen to.

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by fable

hmmm, i think its important to understand the realities your talking about, but its also important to not get into stuck in it. The current situation with aboriginal peoples, and their so called "preferential treatment" is an allusion, if you take into the whole context of things, and you do not support the might is right mentality, then really aboriginal people are struggling for what they HAD. Nonetheless our government has the means, the funds, and the resources to ratify the current situation, its really a matter of they dont want to, because its not in their best interest.

i don't agree with you on that. you say the government has the means, then funds and the resources to ratify the solution. our government is increasingly meeting with aboriginal leaders to discuss ways in which funds and resources can be used to help aboriginal people. they just had that summit meeting a few weeks ago that was pretty important, i think. our government does not have limitless funds and resources, there are other issues that need their attention and money. they have to manage the best they can. they can't just throw millions of dollars to aboriginal issues and then have healthcare or social housing or welfare or daycare suffer because of it. there is only so much money our country has. yes, it can spend it in better ways, but it doesn't have the funds you seem to think it does to automatically fix such complex social issues such as aboriginal society.

and it's obviously in their best interest to increase the living standards of aboriginal people and of all people in canada. increased living standards mean people are healthier and they can work more and contribute to the economy more.

i don't think that our government is doing everything it can. but it's certainly not doing the job that you think it's doing. it's very easy to just point the finger and blame the government for all the problems in our country and say that they don't care and they're not doing anything, but that's just not true.

governments are going to make mistakes, but they are doing things and they are listening and sometimes there are other reasons that conditions are the way they are in a country. you have to remember that there are many groups of people lobbying AGAINST certain social programs and the government has the job of balancing each side of the issue and trying to come up with a viable middle ground.

[fable]

i think. our government does not have limitless funds and resources, there are other issues that need their attention and money. they have to manage the best they can.

25.8 billion dollar military budget

[fable]

governments are going to make mistakes, but they are doing things and they are listening and sometimes there are other reasons that conditions are the way they are in a country. you have to remember that there are many groups of people lobbying AGAINST certain social programs and the government has the job of balancing each side of the issue and trying to come up with a viable middle ground.

kick, your sharing information on government that we learned in first grade. We have differing perceptions of "governmental mistakes" Obviouslly there are some legitmate mistakes, but i firmly believe that a lot of these "mistakes" are also diversionary, divisionary smoke and mirror tactics.

CIDA? RCMP training of the HNP? "Reconstruction" in Afghanistan? etc etc dont even fall under the "mistakes" category.

I do agree that our Canadian economy isnt as stable as some may believe, but there are huge distinctions between "economy forecasts" respective to class distinctions.

[sidekick]

what i just said about government money:

yes, it can spend it in better ways, but it doesn't have the funds you seem to think it does to automatically fix such complex social issues such as aboriginal society.

the military budget you just quoted seems high to me. but then you have to remember that there are other people in the country that think differently than you or me. these people want more military spending. it's obvious that we need some military spending that's for sure. the government has to listen to both sides of each argument. there are people that are pro same-sex marriage and there were people that were against same-sex marriage. the government has to do it's job with representing the majority, and giving equal voice to both sides of an issue. just because you think that military spending should come down and that spending be used for other purposes doesn't mean that the government can just go ahead and do that.

you keep forgetting that the government represents airheads and idiots just as much as it represents other people.

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by fable

kick, your sharing information on government that we learned in first grade.

it's comments like those that get you flamed on this website. you've been hounding me to have some sort of 'debate' with you and then you pull out comments like that.

i said that comment because it seems like you don't understand the fact that governments represent more than just what you think they should do and what you think is right.

ps. i never learned that in the first grade.

[fable]

you keep forgetting that the government represents airheads and idiots just as much as it represents other people.

Believe me when i say that i NEVER forget about the "airheads" and "idiots" :)

But i think the perception that there is a large or majority of people that really are voting for iniatives and policies that infringe on the rights to a specific quality of life of others is false. The group is reletively small, but for a person to be on top of whos doing what and to who and why, is one of the most singularely frustrating things on the planet.

Specific lobbyest(sp?) groups such as the military sector may have influence and a definate say in where specific funds are allocated, but that is only because of their own financial history, influence and priorities. There are over 5500 "pro increased military spending" ngos in this country! I think it wouldnt be too much of a stretch to understand that the majority of this organizations have their hands in every military related manufacturing company from here to st johns (i know i know, hence the reason why we have lobby groups) but realistically the informed conscious supporters of such ideals and policy, and funding allocations are far outnumbered by regular working class non exectuvie citizens. So i personally believe the number of heads is skewed, and i firmly believe (although it may not be apparent on this board) that most citizens do not support current international military missions taken on by our government. But there voices continouslly get drowned out in the every day struggles and survival that we all go through. I personally believe this the nature of the oppression.

The figure for the military budget is spot on. It was 12.8 billion dollars before the last federal budget, and was doubled around that time.

[sidekick]

^this is getting into an area that i'm not too familar with and so i can't really say much about it.

i just wanted to get the point across that the government needs to try to represent everyone. even the stupid people. and money does talk more than brains a lot of the time.

[fable]

Originally Posted by Sidekick

it's comments like those that get you flamed on this website. you've been hounding me to have some sort of 'debate' with you and then you pull out comments like that.

i said that comment because it seems like you don't understand the fact that governments represent more than just what you think they should do and what you think is right.

ps. i never learned that in the first grade.

i dont know, because from my perspective, it seemed a little pretensious. Do you honestly think that i would be ignorant to the "ideal" role of government in society no matter how "radical" you may think some of my ideology is? And in burnaby at my ol stomping ground of brentwood park, we started to learn about government not to long after we were told not to eat glue. I think theres some irony in there somewhere?

Nonetheless take no offense, because none was meant, but understand that being civil doesnt mean bend over.

And also understand that i aint hounding you for shit man. To ME THATS offensive to put out - can i reply the same way you did? Im not doing this for my own perverted pleasure, id much rather be talking about booty shorts and drum and bass, as both are passions of mine! If you dont want to talk, then it aint going to kill me, but i think im being respectful and understand that you are not an enemy of any sort, Just a regular schmo like me, trying to make sense of the world. So ease up on the quick draw, and give me some credit, because im doing the same for you- ya dig?

peace+respect
fable

[sidekick]

i wasn't trying to baby talk anything to you, i was simply trying to make a point about the balancing acts that governments must carry out. i wasn't pulling out the quick-draw about it. i didn't get angry or pissed or hurl insults or snarky comments (which you love so much), i simply pointed it out that it sounded a little insulty to me. i don't want you to bend over about anything, i don't think anything i said required you to bend over.

ugh, i hate debating on fnk. everything turns into this misunderstanding bullshit.

[fable]

Originally Posted by Sidekick

i wasn't trying to baby talk anything to you, i was simply trying to make a point about the balancing acts that governments must carry out. i wasn't pulling out the quick-draw about it. i didn't get angry or pissed or hurl insults or snarky comments (which you love so much), i simply pointed it out that it sounded a little insulty to me. i don't want you to bend over about anything, i don't think anything i said required you to bend over.

ugh, i hate debating on fnk. everything turns into this misunderstanding bullshit.

i dont know, my snarkeyness packed a lot of heat, but there is no way in hell one could believe that my words were unique!

Nonetheless, stopping misunderstanding starts with oneself. i aint offended, i hope you aint either.

peace+respect
shak

ps:i think conflict in politics is a good thing up to a point, because it really forces us to churn up, disect and analyze our own misconceptions, prejudices and self defeating or reactionary thinking, There is a huge difference between talking shop while pissed in the bilarney stone two hours after close, and bouncing ideas and beliefs back and forth on a chat board.

[FlorpIncarnate]

Originally Posted by Sidekick

^i think you misunderstand what gay/lesbian right advocates are fighting for. they aren't fighting for special treatment, but merely to be able to enjoy the same treatment that heterosexuals get in our society. whether that is freedom to work wherever they want, or protection from homophobic crimes, or the right to marry who they want, etc... it's not about special treatment of gay/lesbians, but equal treatment.

Right, that's what I meant.

Originally Posted by Sidekick

as for the transgendered bathrooms. it makes sense. think about it. someone is going through the operation of turning from a guy into a girl (or vice versa) and they have the first stage of this done, which is all the outward appearance stuff. but they still have the sex organs of their original sex...so which bathroom do they use? they look like a chick, but have a dick...do they use the mens or the womens? i understand why they would want their own bathroom because if i was in that situation i wouldn't feel comfortable going into either mens or womens.

Obviously it makes sense in a theoretical discussion, but dude, usually when somebody says "somebody ought to do something!!" what they really mean is "the guvamint ought to do something" which is analogous to saying "everybody should be forced to do something". Here's where I take issue. I'm not willing to pay for transgendered public washrooms. It's clearly not an effective use of taxpayer dollars. Put the money into health care or education. The miniscule percentage of the population that is transgendered can use a stall with a closed door, for goodness sakes.

So sure, we could just ignore reality and fall back to everyone's favorite 'tax and spend' policies that will put is even further in debt.

Originally Posted by Sidekick

as for the conservatives repealling the same-sex marriage law. i'm like 95% sure they wouldn't get away with anything. they never said they would actual repeal the law, but said that they would put it to a free vote in the house of commons where each MP would be able to vote however they wished without ties to their own political party. Harper never said what they would do if the vote turned out in favour of repealling same-sex marriage (which i'm certain it wouldn't). it would be a complicated process and a very annoying one for canadians to have to have the embarrasment of taking away same-sex marriage, especially when most other countries in the world are following in our footsteps. i'm not to scared of anything happening on that front.

This is reassuring to hear.

Oh, and I agree with Fable about the military budget. What a joke. We Canadians should mind our own business and let messed up countries sort out their own issues. The only problem is that we are dependant on the USA for protection. Now sure, in the current geopolitical climate we aren't too likely to be attacked, but will it always be that way? This isn't a formally studied opinion, but my guess is probably not. I think a country needs to be able to defend itself, at the very least as a symbol of national pride. So really, if we can get this cowboy general out of leadership and someone a bit less gung-ho about attacking other countries into power, things might be alright.

Originally Posted by Fable

The current situation with aboriginal peoples, and their so called "preferential treatment" is an allusion, if you take into the whole context of things, and you do not support the might is right mentality, then really aboriginal people are struggling for what they HAD. Nonetheless our government has the means, the funds, and the resources to ratify the current situation, its really a matter of they dont want to, because its not in their best interest.

Do you believe that people should be responsible for the mistakes of their ancestors? Please answer me that. I ask because it looks like you believe this. I personally don't even identify with my grandparents, let alone their grandparents. *I* have done nothing to step on the rights of native North Americans. HOWEVER: the Government in its infinite wisdom has done things to step on my rights in order to grant special privileges to native peoples by granting them special group rights over and above my own (handouts, free land based on race, government jobs, the list goes on).

I see this as one of two choices:

1) Either you believe that people should be responsible for the follies of their ancestors, under which assumption one might say that I should feel the 'white man's burden' and bleed myself in order that those who were downtrodden by my ancestors might be repaid. OR

2) You can say that every individual is responsible for his/her actions alone and guilt is not hereditary, in which case I tell the whining lobbyists and their tax man lackeys to fuck right off and leave me alone, as I'm minding my own business and wish for them to mind theirs.

To summarize, two wrongs (European imperialism and coerced reparations) do not make right (statistically similar economic statuses for native americans compared to the rest of the population).

[fable]

HOWEVER: the Government in its infinite wisdom has done things to step on my rights in order to grant special privileges to native peoples by granting them special group rights over and above my own (handouts, free land based on race, government jobs, the list goes on).

I personally think that this ideal is completely false. I think your belief that you somehow are paying for the tokenistic scraps of land given to Indegenous peoples is completely a lie perpetrated by government. I think that like numerous other issues, the reckless and ill thoughout "concessions" made to indegenous peoples is BULLSHIT.

Solving the indegenous rights issues has nothing to do with how Indegenous peoples conduct themsleves outside of corrupt bandleaders and almost completely with the government not willing to negotiate as this is not the government of Canadas stance.

My questions to you, is on what basis do you feel that you have more solidarity with the government of Canada then you do of Indegenous peoples?

Who is actaully perpetuatijng oppression and flat out human rights violations?

Why do you beleive that the struggle for Indegenous rights, hampers your own personal struggles for specific rights? Examples?

This isnt about us sacrificing for Indegenous special treatment, we either dont sacrific anything, or we do in the name of corporate and governmental profit. I dont believe in any other reality specific to the situation.

coerced reparations

Elaborate on this for me?

We Canadians should mind our own business and let messed up countries sort out their own issues.

Florp man, the idea that we are lending foreign aid is an ILLUSION, because we are carrying out the same action as European Connquerers did years ago - IMPERIALISTIC ACTION, AT HOME AND ABROAD. Ive mentioned examples many times, what exactly do you disagree with?

The only problem is that we are dependant on the USA for protection.

Ok i agree somewhat, but dont go any further with this ideaology, because its reactionary and it shifts accountability from our own government. Canadas government is officailly in the running when it comes to super power imperialism. Truth be told, i think we always were. The doubling of the military budget, and escalation of military prescence proves this. Even the language on foreign policy and the military has changed over the last few years. Its the four horseman yo! Paul Martin, Bill Graham, Piere Pettigrew and Rick Hillier! Tack on the 5500 ngo's in the military sector, + Canadas mining industry (executive) and throw em in a sealed room, with some a large pool and some cesium and we got....er i mean these groups and individuals in my belief are some of the top involvees in Canadian Governments Imperialistic Agenda.

Perhaps as isolated topics, issues such as indegenous rights may seem unclear, or bullshit, but include the continuing attacks on unions and the working class of Canada, the increasing hypocricy of social program funding, the absolute gong show with health care, the monopolization of anything and everything, Haiti, Afghanistan, Iraq............................. i dont mate, im seeing a trend, thats been around for awhile.

Nonetheless your feelings about where money is going and to whom and why, is fucking completely legitimate! You have a right as a canadian citizen to know what the fucks up right, but realistically how much do we see of the picture, and why are current policy issues in canada obviouslly kept seperate from eachother?

[fable]

*I* have done nothing to step on the rights of native North Americans.

Personally i feel if i support a government that DOES, then so do i.