First Election Debate Tomorrow

[sidekick]

are you going to watch?

[Antenna_Boy]

okay..there's an election going on? I think I am more wrapped up in canadian politics...and as long as I know Arnold is taking care of things in Cali, and G. Bush is taking "care" of his country..that's all I care about...:070:







wait a minute..I "care" about politics???? wtf????

Jake, I am going to make an earnest effort, just so much to do.

EDIT - Christmas is definately not the season to have a debate, jerks.

[C_squared]

Originally Posted by Antenna_Boy

okay..there's an election going on? I think I am more wrapped up in canadian politics...and as long as I know Arnold is taking care of things in Cali, and G. Bush is taking "care" of his country..that's all I care about...:070:







wait a minute..I "care" about politics???? wtf????

seriously man... w t f ?

[C_squared]

What time is the dabate?

I'm working tommorow night.. I might be able to catch some of it on my break.

[fable]

I personally think the debates will be as reactionary, diversionary and as much a waste of money as it they have always been. People will watch and analyze and feel like they have a grasp of current canadian politics, and believe that they will be making informed decisions come election day. There will be token gestures disguised as policy change, and "staunch" interest groups will be appeased. The military lobby will have their collective knobs thoroughly shined and rights for addicts, gay and lesbians will take three steps back. Corporate Canada will see new tax breaks, and more Canadian mining companies will chew up the earth at home and abroad. The wars will continue and see Canada perpetuate the Canadinan imperialistic war machine into new frontiers. Citizens of Canada will focus on a dwindling and highly convoluted health care program and will collectivelly have their heads turned towards law enforcement, drug policy, and tax breaks. Meanwhile the attacks on the working people will continue, inspite of the fact that many citizens failed to realize the significance of the dissecting of the CMG, TWU, HEU and BCTF strikes will have in the coming years. Unions as a collective body representing the struggle for rights for the common person will be marred by beaurcratic union leadership that consistantly sells their members rights down the river. There will be increased gentrification, development at the cost of frail ecologies and new uber mortgages that will have middle class canada by the junk well into the year 3000.

The freedoms to vote become more ironic, and hypocritical everyday.

[sidekick]

^thank god you're here, otherwise we'd all be so lost.

[sidekick]

i'm not really sure how you can say that rights for gays and lesbians are taking three steps back, or will take three steps back. everything i have experienced in the past five years has shown me that they are stepping forward. obviously the legalization of same-sex marriage was a huge deal in recognizing gay and lesbian rights. almost all universities have 'pride' groups and ubc just opened up a transgendered bathroom in the student union building. of course there is always going to be homophobia, but on the large-scale things seem to be going in the right direction.

[fable]

Originally Posted by Sidekick

^thank god you're here, otherwise we'd all be so lost.

wtf? dude, you want to perpetuate the bullshit, its on you now.


As for the gay,lesbian and transgender rights: they seem to always seem to regression in the midst of the changing of the guard in canadian parliment. Admittedely i most of my information is from friends in the respective communities, but the likes of Stephen Harper has me anticipating the worst.

[Ryan Ross]

and by "perpetuate the bullshit" you mean watch the debate?

[Draven GD]

im going to watch for sure, this election could be huge. im hopeing this will really stir things up. im all for seeing a new gov'ts trying something differnt.

id love to see what the NDP could do these days. but i know im neerly alown on that.
the Conservatives are offering some great new things for people starting up in the trades, which is where i am now, so that would be alright with me too..

what ever happens though, all im really hoping for is a Strong opposition. i dont want to see a majority gov't. not at this time. though with the way things are looking, i dont know if thats going to be a problem.

[sidekick]

well (as an actual memeber of this so-called 'community') lately it seems that for every step backward in queer rights there are two steps forward. i believe the world is a progressive place and given time people will become more accepting of certain issues. the ammount of social change in the way of thinking toward racism, sexism, and other isms in the last fifty years is pretty good headway i think. although, it's definitly not perfect and we still have a long way to go, you can't ignore the progress that societies around the world have made in these arenas.

people can criticize modern society all they want (and it's important to do so), but i don't think they should lose sight of the fact that we have come along way in the last fifty years. and considering the ammount of people that live in the world, or even in canada, changing that many minds over such hot matters such as race and sexuality is a pretty big feat.

although stephen harper is a knucklehead, there are certain things that even he can't ignore. one of the main ones being that same-sex marriage has already been legalized. i believe that people in canada just want to move on. if we look around the world we can see that other countries are quickly following this legalization movement, and i don't believe that canada would reverse something as progressive as same-sex marriage; especially when you consider that canada really likes to put itself at the head of social projects and acceptance (even though it may not always be there).

[Ryan Ross]

Originally Posted by fable

As for the gay,lesbian and transgender rights: they seem to always seem to regression in the midst of the changing of the guard in canadian parliment. Admittedely i most of my information is from friends in the respective communities, but the likes of Stephen Harper has me anticipating the worst.

Why does everything always have to be so negative that comes out of your mouth? Ive read so many posts of yours and every single one has been "everything about this world is TERRIBLE!". Granted, yes, many things could be a hell of a lot better and we are in a pretty shitty situation in some aspects. But gay marriage?? Its like you just tried to bring up every issue and say "the worst will happen"

What evidence do you have for the rights always being in regression in the midst of the changing of the guard?? The right to marry has been passed, and the majority of canadians just want to leave it at that, and if they start dragging their teeth on that (no pun intended) again they will loose alot of support. Even if Harper does manage to get into government, theres pretty much no way they will have a majority, and aint no opposition going to get on the bill to reverse gay marriage.

In short: stop and smell the freaking flowers once in a while and stop telling everyone else that the flowers are going to kill them.

[fable]

Originally Posted by Blunted

and by "perpetuate the bullshit" you mean watch the debate?

no, i mean the angst between him and i.

[fable]

Originally Posted by Blunted

Why does everything always have to be so negative that comes out of your mouth?
In short: stop and smell the freaking flowers once in a while and stop telling everyone else that the flowers are going to kill them.

the real question is why do you think everything i say is negetive? And smelling the flowers is a given, but the weeds aint :)

lets keep in on the topic though mate. I think that a lot of controversial policy takes a shot to jaw, when we enact new government (technically re-engaging old government) And its in our best interest as citizens to keep this in mind. And i do take joy in my life - my friends, family, education, communication/art/music/design and human spirit as a result of community building, BUT i wont ever stop talking and questioning, and neither should you.

peace+respect
shak

[Ryan Ross]

Originally Posted by fable

the real question is why do you think everything i say is negetive? And smelling the flowers is a given, but the weeds aint :)

lets keep in on the topic though mate. I think that a lot of controversial policy takes a shot to jaw, when we enact new government (technically re-engaging old government) And its in our best interest as citizens to keep this in mind. And i do take joy in my life - my friends, family, education, communication/art/music/design and human spirit as a result of community building, BUT i wont ever stop talking and questioning, and neither should you.

peace+respect
shak

Fair enough. I just had a sudden "very annoyed" reaction when i read your everything is terrible rant in this thread.

Yes I realize that a lot of the more controversial topics seem be held a lot differently during election time, but I still dont see where you get this thing about gay marriage? The debate has all but disapeared for now (granted it'll probably come up at some point, but i dont think it'll be an election issue).

The thing that bothered me was that this is a thread about watching the debate and you turned it into a "bitch about everything wrong with the political system" thread. You make it out like the government is just out there pulling the wool over our eyes everyday and its one collective "man" thats just trying to steal our money, rape us and leave us for dead. Is it?

[miss.myra]

Originally Posted by Dravengd

im going to watch for sure, this election could be huge. im hopeing this will really stir things up. im all for seeing a new gov'ts trying something differnt.

id love to see what the NDP could do these days. but i know im neerly alown on that.
the Conservatives are offering some great new things for people starting up in the trades, which is where i am now, so that would be alright with me too..

what ever happens though, all im really hoping for is a Strong opposition. i dont want to see a majority gov't. not at this time. though with the way things are looking, i dont know if thats going to be a problem.

Q- Do you believe in unicorns?

[decypher]

Originally Posted by Dravengd

the Conservatives are offering some great new things

boooo haha. Harper offers these token tax breaks such as for children's Sports and trys to say that it helps get kids motivated when really it doesen't do shit. The tax break just helps the families of children who are really active, such a superficial policy.

[decypher]

Originally Posted by Antenna_Boy

okay..there's an election going on? I think I am more wrapped up in canadian politics...and as long as I know Arnold is taking care of things in Cali, and G. Bush is taking "care" of his country..that's all I care about...:070:







wait a minute..I "care" about politics???? wtf????

I think people who don't "care" about politics should then "shut the fuck up" when it comes to political discourse. Please Move to the back.

KTHX

[fable]

Originally Posted by Blunted

Fair enough. I just had a sudden "very annoyed" reaction when i read your everything is terrible rant in this thread.

Yes I realize that a lot of the more controversial topics seem be held a lot differently during election time, but I still dont see where you get this thing about gay marriage? The debate has all but disapeared for now (granted it'll probably come up at some point, but i dont think it'll be an election issue).

The thing that bothered me was that this is a thread about watching the debate and you turned it into a "bitch about everything wrong with the political system" thread. You make it out like the government is just out there pulling the wool over our eyes everyday and its one collective "man" thats just trying to steal our money, rape us and leave us for dead. Is it?

hold up Bro, from where im standing you aint talking about anything revolving around the debate either. Allow me to pose one more querstion to you:

CONDERING THE NATIONAL DEBATE IS LOOMING IN JUST FEW DAYS, WHEN IS THERE A BETTER TIME TO START MY"bitch about everything wrong with the political system" thread?? AFTER THE ELECTION?

[Ryan Ross]

^^^
yeah that would be a good time.

[fable]

Originally Posted by Sidekick

well (as an actual memeber of this so-called 'community') lately it seems that for every step backward in queer rights there are two steps forward. i believe the world is a progressive place and given time people will become more accepting of certain issues. the ammount of social change in the way of thinking toward racism, sexism, and other isms in the last fifty years is pretty good headway i think. although, it's definitly not perfect and we still have a long way to go, you can't ignore the progress that societies around the world have made in these arenas.

people can criticize modern society all they want (and it's important to do so), but i don't think they should lose sight of the fact that we have come along way in the last fifty years. and considering the ammount of people that live in the world, or even in canada, changing that many minds over such hot matters such as race and sexuality is a pretty big feat.

although stephen harper is a knucklehead, there are certain things that even he can't ignore. one of the main ones being that same-sex marriage has already been legalized. i believe that people in canada just want to move on. if we look around the world we can see that other countries are quickly following this legalization movement, and i don't believe that canada would reverse something as progressive as same-sex marriage; especially when you consider that canada really likes to put itself at the head of social projects and acceptance (even though it may not always be there).

does "community" rub you the wrong way?

but i don't think they should lose sight of the fact that we have come along way in the last fifty years.

fair enough i completely 100% agree, but dont loose sight of the fact that the real struggle has, is, and will be for the next while against a small but powerful ruling class and government.

My own beliefs,education, conversations, travels, life experiences tell ME, that if you are ethnic, working class, poor, suffering from addictions, a student, gay,lesbian, transgender, an immigrant, a refugee, indegenous peoples, that the GOVERNMENT AND CURRENT GOVERNMENTAL POLICY AND POLITICAL PRECEDENT IN CANADA DOESNT GIVE A FUCK ABOUT YOU, the only people that DO are the "so called" communites of citizens.

ps; your a lesbian? :)

peace+respect(its a process right?)
shak

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by fable

My own beliefs,education, conversations, travels, life experiences tell ME, that if you are ethnic, working class, poor, suffering from addictions, a student, gay,lesbian, transgender, an immigrant, a refugee, indegenous peoples, that the GOVERNMENT AND CURRENT GOVERNMENTAL POLICY AND POLITICAL PRECEDENT IN CANADA DOESNT GIVE A FUCK ABOUT YOU

well, that's not completely true. if it was then same-sex marriage wouldn't have been such a hot debate, or they never would have added sexuality into the charter of rights. what about safe injection sites in the DTES? if they didn't care then they never would have implemented those. what about the transgendered bathrooms on ubc and sfu campuses? if they didn't care, then why do we have those? what about all the aboriginal self-governing committees that have been arranged? they could just forget about the whole thing. except they don't.

of course upper class citizens have the upperhand. money talks and always will talk. but our government knows that more people vote than just the upper class and there is much evidence that they do care about minorities in canada. especially because they make up such a large section of our country and voters.

our government is not perfect (they never are or will be), but they are not ignoring everything either. they DO give a fuck about people (even the minority communities in our society). you can't ignore all the things that the government has been doing to improve minority community status in our country. it's an ongoing process and yes, we must be critical, but if you are too critical then you are going to lose sight of the many things that have been accomplished over the years to help.

i'm not saying we have more work ahead of us, i'm just saying that you have to notice the things that have improved as well.

and yes, i am the boy version of a lesbian, and no, i don't feel like i belong to any kind of 'gay community' (even though i live in the west end).

[fable]

'kick what you see as progression, i see at best: as the fruits of the struggles being fought by "gay communities" minority groups, etc etc, and at worst: shear tokenism.

The creation of safe injection sites in vancouver (which i pray, manages to stay open) transgender bathrooms, aboriginal self governing commitiees (in serious debate over legitimacy) and a large portion of government conceding toward the creation and running of these resources and commitiees is BECAUSE OF SUCH COMMUNITIES FIGHTING>PROTESTING>SCREAMING THEIR VOICES etc etc! Not because of some level of belovolence on their part and nothing much past the need to secure votes.

What historical events and the mirror of such events today, argue against this!?

The reality is that any rights that we have, and hold onto are the rights we have literally fought for. And its because of this reality, that i believe that current government and current governmental structure DOESNT look out for the interests of the citizens of this country first and foremost.

Hopefully this clears up my stance a little bit at least. We run the risk of losing perspective on specific realities if we get caught up in governmental concessions that we fought for in the first place.

no, i don't feel like i belong to any kind of 'gay community' (even though i live in the west end).

Can i ask why?

peace+respect
fable

[Antenna_Boy]

Originally Posted by fable

The reality is that any rights that we have, and hold onto are the rights we have literally fought for. And its because of this reality, that i believe that current government and current governmental structure DOESNT look out for the interests of the citizens of this country first and foremost.

You know, you are right. They look out for their wallets first. Then, if there is some change left, look out for the interests of the country, state, or province.