The science is in, 9/11 attacks is 100% an inside job

[fable]

Originally Posted by McNasty

I think anyone who thinks it is pointless to dwell on this should be ashamed of themselves

Canadian soldiers are sent overseas to die for this corruption...and even more innocent people. If enough people dwell on this then maybe it will be stopped.

Ashamed? I understand the scope of 9/11 but if it never happended, a different tragedy whether US government orchestrated or not would have occured.

Our soldiers are not in Afghanistan because of 9/11. Our soldiers are in Afghanistan because the Canadian government are the new imperialists on the block. Nobody in their right mind(pun intended) is using 9/11 anymore as an factor to why there are still troops (and more at that) in Afghanistan, understanding that the campaign initself is getting weaker and weaker day by day.

If you understand the scope and core of military occupation in the middle east, or Haiti, or upcoming military invasions of Iran or Syria, hell even latin america, then using 9/11 in any of our work towards education for the interest of garnering support would be reactionary at best.

However in terms of a massive waste of human life for political manouevering in order to initiate further imperialist invasion, then yes, you are right, we should no never forget the event or ignore it. If i sounded like this was what i was saying, then i apologise.

What i was trying to say, was that the truth about 9/11 will not aid us in our fight, as the core of current war and occupation is clearly transparent in its own merits. Look at the replies thus far, as soon as this was dropped all the "conspiracy" naysayers came out in droves. Most of which are fairly intelligent and aware, but the world isnt ready to hear about the truth about 9/11 and have it be impactful, until they understand the roots of terrorism, and the agenda of western capitalist nations.

-'nasty hit me up sometime, or lets go get a beer. It would be cool to get a chance to talk to you, pass on some literature and invite you to some events/shows. MAWO and other local organizations in the lower mainland are going to be in full swing for the next 4 months, including forums, workshops, rallies, hiphop shows and a massive hiphop festival against war and occupation! Stay alert yo.

In Solidarity,
Shak

[esoter1c]

Hiphop shows and a massive hiphop festival against war and occupation!

..........................

[fable]

Originally Posted by 3507321C

..........................

Care to elaborate? You too good for events like these? Perhaps events like these might even draw a few intelligent hyper cynical interernet book worms out???? If you come out of your cave, be sure to wear some sunglasses, sunlight might be hard on your eyes after being in the dark for so long ;)

[esoter1c]

Actually I'm going to Chase and Status against teh war and occupation tonight.

[fable]

Originally Posted by 3507321C

Actually I'm going to Chase and Status against teh war and occupation tonight.

Yes of course! Getting smashed and shaking an ass, against the ruling class!!!

Have fun, this show sounds like its going to be aweasome!

In solidarity,

Shak

[gnosis]

Post! Post, and post some more!

There's no such thing as too much information!
(well, ok, no one _really_ needs to know about yer last loo-break)

This is an expanded version of what I'd seen before, so, it kept my interest.

Related discussions should be kept ongoing, seeing that many issues are relevant to the public's awareness of ongoing/new policies that Harper's gov't is taking us to.

Frosty
(concerned? YES!)

[SEAN!]

so in a few weeks when 6/6/6 passes uneventfully are you guys just gonna admit that you're batshit crazy or are you gonna keep spouting ill concieved nonsense like its the gospel?

[dave mcnasty]

well it's really just gonna be 6/6/2006 so it's not even really cool whether u believe somethin will happen or not

[hardstylin]

Originally Posted by SEAN!

so in a few weeks when 6/6/6 passes uneventfully are you guys just gonna admit that you're batshit crazy or are you gonna keep spouting ill concieved nonsense like its the gospel?

no shit

i think your all fucking nutt jobs!!!

haha j/k

no im not

:)

[gnosis]

Originally Posted by SEAN!

so in a few weeks when 6/6/6 passes uneventfully are you guys just gonna admit that you're batshit crazy or are you gonna keep spouting ill concieved nonsense like its the gospel?

You mean like the Gospel of Judas Iscariot?

Frosty
(entertained, watching it all unfold)

[scue]

since we're all convinced by anything written or in a movie.. here's some points against the videos

http://www.911myths.com/index.html

http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/g...se_change.html

[djmarkpaul]

Originally Posted by fable

Mark, at the end of the day, does 9/11 being proven to be an inside job have any effect on the work we still need to do?

Absolutely. Let's take the movement MAWO claims to be part of. It's a Mobilization Against War and Occupation. You know I was a founding member at the first meeting? Anyways as far as having an effect on the work of mobilizing a movement against imperialist neo-colonialism, you and MAWO need to get real.



The reality of it is, yes, you do need to have the details of each individual struggle that MAWO has and promotes to have a viable movement, but it's hardly on the forefront of your protests, or atleast the ones I have been to.

I hear the same monotonous mantra of self determination of all oppressed people at home and abroad. To me this sort of talk is useless psychobabble after it is made self evident, disgruntled revolutionaries use this snarky dialogue as a platform so they can pit their rage of all injustice and hate they feel for the world into this movement. It blinds the movement as a result. It's good to be passionate, but one must be able to question the motives of their passion. I don't see MAWO doing that. There's no self-sustainable agenda to create MPCs or anything of that sort and/or the creation of a new economic system that would stifle corporate conglomerates from becoming imperialistic in nature like Parecon for instance. You just want to raul a whole bunch of people up...but for what? You guys have no game plan. All I got from MAWO is an obsessive slogan chant stuck in my head used cheifly by Shannon and Kira about self determination... btw they are still co-chairing right? I am sick of hearing the terms self determination yadda yadda...and I completely agree with the sentiments.

Originally Posted by fable

Governmental corruption at the cost of lives is a given. 9/11 was a grotesque loss of life and a terrible tragedy but in lieau of the knowledge of US proxy wars during the cold war, the 40 year economic bloquade of Cuba, the torture of US captured prisoners in foreign countries, ......i can go on on forever.

Personally i dont believe so. I dont think it would do anything more for the citizens of the world who understand the scope of US governmental corruption, and it despite massive evidence of all nature, and a mountain of personal accounts, those who believe that Saddam and Osama where working together, and Islam=the devil will keep believing in what they do, inspite of this info.

You fail to see the point. You may be aware of the intricate political climates of previous and future imperialistic tactics, but the vast majority of the public will choose to stay ignorant of this. There is a very clear pre-text that 9/11 created, one where the formation of police and military unions are now made acceptable by the standards of the status quo. You also have the pre-text to invade the privacy of the populace where major cities around the world are now taking to public filming via the square mile in Lodon. Naturally there are some pros as crime lowers but manufacturing evidence is a big deal, VPD have already targeted Ivan with manufacturing evidence in a court case he has about the Britania 5, think of how sophisticated it will be when this becomes the norm. Again, publically now accepted as a result of 9/11.

You also fail to see the relevance of keeping to this event as it may be considered by some now as "old news". You and activists at MAWO are looked at as bleeding hearts as you concentrate on the plight of other countries as much or I would say more than your own country.

Naturally there needs to be some focus outside of our borders because of who we align politically to and the countries we imperialistically invade...but that should be in the passenger side, not the driver's seat as it is now. 9/11 being proven as an inside job directly correlates the movement of mobilizing the masses because those attacks EVERYONE took personally. Practically no one a part of the duped masses gives a shit about some country in the middle east ending with STAN because they don't feel threatened by their plight, but here, here it's different. Most people MAWO wants to mobilize are probably ignorant on the true events that occured on 9/11...those people are the majority of voters too, and those people also happen to pre-emptively agree to all imperialist tactics of invading another country on the basis of harboring terrorists ...ALL as a result of the 9/11 attacks.

I see too much compartmentalization in MAWO too. In MAWO I have felt reverse prejudice because they see me as a white guy and are obsessed about having an ethnic representation. I can see where MAWO was going with this but they didn't get that I am a part of a minority aswell. There is also alot of self righteous almost pious attitudes I've encountered, everyone trying to one up each other with how involved they are against imperialism, it's like a greed to do good...it's a wierd ego twist. I got my reasons for not coming out.

Originally Posted by fable

Although i always appreciate the intel, the unravelling of this tragedy pretty much made its point a year. To keep on this in my personal opinion is a waste of valuable time. People like you and your brains are needed elswhere. Seriously.

I didn't make this documentry, I just watched it. It took just over an hour of my day, then the original post was 5 mins of my day. Not alot of time wasted, and it's not wasted when the vast majority of people are still in the dark about it. The difference about this event is firstly people will take it more personal as it's an attack on home soil. Secondly, there is a shitload of witness testimony and video evidence, coupled with logic alone once you put all the live reports together to proove with this event alone that not only we have a totalitarian facist government out of control rampantly warring, but we are going to be directly invovled. You only need just over an hour of someone's time to make this abundently clear. The kind of intricate details MAWO gets into (which BTW are necessary when mobilizing becomes more serious) is a waste of time because it fails to address to the common person how and why they are directly under attack for the rights of self expression and self determination.

Originally Posted by fable

Lets go for that brew soon! And be sure to check my thread with all the upcoming events listed.

In solidarity,
Shak

Brew I will definetly be down for sometime in the next 2 weeks...drop me a pm and let me know when you got time...but it's gonna have to be a worthy event to drag my arse out so I can hear some bleeding heart left jargon along with mayve some decent revolutionary tactics/idealism.

Markus

[dj_soo]

this ought to be good...

[djmarkpaul]

Originally Posted by Wood

^is dwelling on it going really going to bring you any closer to the truth? Is knowing the truth going to enable you or anyone else to stop what's been put into motion?

Dwelling is a waste of time...concentrating on affirmed facts and having a deductive analysis is not, you are pigeon holing the struggle here.

Originally Posted by Wood

as i said, i find everything in that documentary entirely plausible, in fact i find just the basic suggestion that 9/11 was an inside job to be quite believable, even without the evidence to back it up.

As do I...but the evidence is needed to really have a strong foundation in the claims made to counter the official version. It's the difference between dogma and scientifically confirmed fact.

Originally Posted by Wood

but lay people like ourselves will never really know the truth. i think it's a case where the quest for truth has become a harmful distraction for some who might otherwise be doing something positive for the present & future. do you think thousands of would-be activists pouring over the minutae of the 9/11 tragedy is going to stop the war? i'm doubting that very much.

So you've decided to give up on knowing the truth. I pity you. To me not living in the essence of truth is a weak caricature of a demoralized society in this play of life. It also happens to be the status quo, ego has become a growth that is cancerous to our way of life and as a result we are commiting ecocide.

Thousands? No...if a Billion or so people knew and were progressing towards an everyday open dialogue that makes plans for a sustainable future...it might not just stop the war, it may change the very fabric of our social order, which is going to be something necessary soon as we aren't a society with a very open dialogue on sustainability.

Originally Posted by Wood

anyways, this is why i stay away from politics... too many intangibles. i can understand people being outraged by a tragedy like this, but really, putting this much time & effort into playing the blame game is counter productive. i'll tell you who's responsible for 9/11 - we all are. so stop pointing fingers and let's get on with trying to make a better future, if it's not already too late.

They are intangible for you...I tend to think it's alot more sane to allow variables in my social/political outlook. This isn't about playing a blame game, infact that is what's happened as a result of the propaganda surrounding 9/11. I totally agree we are all responsible, and standing up for truth_IS_working to make a better future, if you can't see that, it's already too late for you.

[djmarkpaul]

Originally Posted by SEAN!

so in a few weeks when 6/6/6 passes uneventfully are you guys just gonna admit that you're batshit crazy or are you gonna keep spouting ill concieved nonsense like its the gospel?

You know it's funny but for once I whole heartedly agree with you. I think the second last seal of the apocolypse has been broken, cue the trumpets!

PS

Stop painting us all with the same brush, you'd be surprised with how skeptical I am to doomsday alarmists.

[fable]

Organizing around war and occupation is only a stepping stone towards creating and enacting an alternate society to that of which is entrenched in capitalism. Organizing around war an occupation is a step in uniting people in a common goal of which the process will eventaully help people evolve to face realities far more sinister than just war. In this process people will develop skills both organizationally and individually that will serve its purpose later in life.

Beer is out of the question. Your recent remarks sound more like a counter-revolutionary, which in itself would not be a position you could excel in either, as you are far too self indulgent, inpatient, insecure, immature, egotistical, narcisistic and ignorant of any historical revolutionary work (that has actaully taken place in reality)

Your assesment of MAWO is baseless as you were only in MAWO for a month before you left. (rumour has it, it was due to a crystal meth addiction and unstable mental health) Due to my own expeiences with addiction and accounts from people close to you, i would tend to lean towards believing such.

Your last reply would have found you dead by the hand of comrades within revolutionary movements you presume to know so much about.

Markus you are obviouslly bright, and have legitimate concerns about events in our world, but keep talking like you do to other people/organizers like you just did, and you will alienate yourself from any community that WILL NEED to carry out any expansive, change.

Even Malcom X and Che Guevera practised patience, and understood the importance of process, community and the lessons derived from them.

[fable]

but it's gonna have to be a worthy event to drag my arse out so I can hear some bleeding heart left jargon along with mayve some decent revolutionary tactics/idealism.

Did you really just say this?

[Alex]

Markus, you think fable's preachings and arguments are repetitive and you admit to some what agreeing with them.

Imagine how I feel, whole heartedly disagreeing.

[fable]

Originally Posted by Alex

Markus, you think fable's preachings and arguments are repetitive and you admit to some what agreeing with them.

Imagine how I feel, whole heartedly disagreeing.

Hahahahahaha, although i disagree with marks assesment of most members of society being too ignorant to live, you on the other hand should be the poster child. Back to your hole!

[djmarkpaul]

Originally Posted by fable

If you do in fact want to have some honest productive conversation with me, then leave the post MAWO bitterness with your pile of useless 9/11 dvds.

Well for a guy who prides himself on ripping apart posts point by point all I can say is I expected alot more from you. I have every right to feel bitter, I poured my heart into MAWO when I was there, like everyone I'm sure, but unlike most people there I was willing to admit that I might be wrong. This comment was unnecessarily rude.

Originally Posted by fable

I am currently biting my tongue, but honestly that last little rant of yours echoes a political maturity akin to an idealic 16 year old communist youth. Throughtout your last reply, all i here is a disgruntled, demoralized, self serving, selfish, self absorbed, confused and egotistical two year old.

Well if that's biting your toungue, I hope you don't forget to be tongue-in-cheek with whoever you talk to in person. Seriously...this post for you is biting your tongue? You riddle this retort with too much finger pointing and not enough substance. Yes I may have made some bold claims, but I offered you more importantly reasons for my so-called bitterness.

Disgruntled, demoralized, yeah, I could see that. Self serving, selfish (is there an echo here?), self absored (is there an echo here?), confused (never claimed to have all the answers) and egotistical (dare I say you're tooting your own horn?) ...well I don't know about that. You wanna talk that much shit then you should atleast have the decency to show me where, and you are a guy that makes many of his rebutals point by point. Really I expected more from ya.

Originally Posted by fable

You know as much about revolutionary work and ideaology as i do, and its not a large amount. You call people who have been doing work for atleast a decade and have the respect of people trully involved, regardless if they hate them.

Don't assume you know as much as me on this. You may know more, or I may know more, it's really not the point. I don't care if you've been involved your whole life or if you are jumping on the Busshit bandwagon, if I see hypocracy or too much ego in your spiel, I will call you on it. Naturally, I don't see myself as a shining example now either, but atleast I can admit that I am wrong.

Originally Posted by fable

I would like to say you living a pipe dream, but it might cut too close to the rumour of a crystal meth addiction that saw you leave MAWO within a month of it starting(Its now on its third year)

WOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWW. You really talk alot of shit man, totally uncalled for. Really.

Well it's nice to know people at MAWO make up rumours when people leave the organization as a result of lack of vision, it totally validates my reasons for leaving and gives me closure. I now know I want nothing to do with MAWO. The nerve some people have.

First I was organizing with MAWO for about 6 months to a year, not 1 month, don't belive me then ask Nasim (I believe that is the fellow's name) when his father died...I went their with other members of MAWO aswell to pay my respects. I know for a fact that was atleast 6 months or so of MAWO being organized.

It's nice how whoever told you that trivialized my time there. It's nice that since I didn't agree with the direction that MAWO was going they painted me out to be some sort of drugged out meth head too, considering I've never really done meth. So I'm a fucking pot head, big deal, that's my business. When I was going out to put up posters some nights, I would bring my glass pipe for tocking the refer as it is alot less boring that way. Nice to know that even though they could probably tell just by the smell I was smoking weed that this automatically changed to one of the worst drugs ever concoted by man soon after I left.

After talking that sort of shit you don't even deserve to know why, but I'll just set the record straight and quell this rumour. I left because I was agreed to be put on the speaker's list of a certain protest and then mysteriously I was off from it the day of the protest after I spent over an hour the previous night writing a speach. The 2nd meeting before that protest, I was confirmed on the speaker's list. I made almost all meetings, more than most members. I missed the last meeting before said protest. Apparently that was enough to take me off the speaker's list even though I put in over an average amount of hours for going to meetings and leafleting.

So I turned my back on MAWO, 'cause they turned their backs on me first.

Originally Posted by fable

We have all made mistakes in our approach, i know i sure have, but i think this would be a good time to compare our reasoning. Your remarks about a lack of discussing economic models and such paint you as someone who has no patience and no understanding of any historical revolutionary movements.

Bullshit. If you have no gameplan, it's just a bunch of useless rebble rousing.

Originally Posted by fable

Organizing around war and occupation is only a stepping stone towards creating and enacting an alternate society to that of which is entrenched in capitalism. Organizing around war an occupation is a step in uniting people in a common goal of which the process will eventaully help people evolve to face realities far more sinister than just war. In this process people will develop skills both organizationally and individually that will serve its purpose later in life. Revolution doesnt happen in your life time. You as an individual are as insignificant as your childish rantings. Which i dont understand in light of your history rumoured to be plagued with addiction, and mania, which in reality is the reason why you were unable to work in a community, not becuase said community is irrelevent. Dont kid yourself, and dont lie to me, nor condemn organizations comprised of members that have done more work towards uniting people in one month that you have done in your entire lifetime.

See there you go trying to one me up again. Oh these people do more work in 1 month than I do in a lifetime. Go fuck yourself. You're the one making childish rantings. It's nice that you take apparent rumours as truths now. I can be bold, seemingly rude at times, but I don't base my claims on rumours, they are first hand experiences. MAWO demonized me for not agreeing with their tactics. You are doing the same thing and you haven't even met me in real life, and for doing that, you never will.

Originally Posted by fable

Your words are dangerous, not becuase of the specific information you know, but becuase you are a lose cannon.

All aboard the irony train.

Originally Posted by fable

Someone who does not work in a spirit of love, but rather one of hate.

Says the man that never met me.

Originally Posted by fable

Admit it, your motives are based on the fact that you hate people deep down. Thus you inability to work within a group. Who judges an organization within a month of it being created? Who talks about not giving a fuck about most people, and then on the other hand working in a boastful egotistical manner about how one has shared valuable information? -Someone who is insecure, immature, unorganized, inpatient, and mentally deficient. Mark sometimes you come off intelligent and aware, but your prioritization of what needs to be done, and how is rendering you incapable of any longeterm effect.

Taking rumours to the bank makes your credibility just shy of non-existant in my books. You know what your problem is man, you hurl alot of baseless insults. If I make insults, I still give them substance. All you got is your hippy rage.

Originally Posted by fable

Your last rant speaks of someone who is in it for themselves. You want to be known as an "expert" You want to be recognized.You brought up shannon and kira? Why? Could it be becuase you fragile ego couldnt handle the fact that two young women where chairing the group? You brought up Ivan too? Why? You dont respect him? This guy may be manipulative in some ways, and yet he has been doing work for over 15 years! Hes been a major asset to almost any and all legitimate organizations in this city! Brittania 5?!? What the fuck man - do you even know what went down? Its the core that these kind of uneducated, fanatical comments stem from that have people pegging you as a straight up wack job. Please note i said wack job, not militant, or agressive or confrontational.

I don't like Kira and Shannon because I felt from the get go that I wasn't being given a chance because I was white and I was male.

I tired very sincerely to open up to them and I got nowhere fast, they treated me as though I were some sort of defector because I had some ideas that were unorthodox.

As for Ivan, I don't have anything personal really about the guy I hold against him. He's dedicated alot of his time, I just happen to feel he is short sighted in some ways. I just brought up Britania 5 because by his own words VPD manufactured evidence in a case against him, but when I suggested direct action against public monitoring he snapped on me for it potentially drawing out MAWO in a court case. He may have a decent counter-point, but the one I made if actually followed through would have actually protected him from such actions if we were successful.

Originally Posted by fable

What the fuck have you done in terms of a community? What structures have you created? Or do you assume that revolution happens overnight? Perhaps you need to go back to the accounts of historical revolution again, becuase right now your grasp of the contempory makes you sound like someone, who has read one too many internet blogs written by midwestern, middle class white kids who live in gated communities and go to private schools.

You talk alot of shit, yet you know nothing about me. My parents came here with the shirts on their backs and 2 suitcases. My dad was a political fugitive for organizing against the communist regime in Poland in his younger days. My folks have become alot more sucessful because they continually busted their asses to make ends meet. I was never really priveleged growing up, my parents finally own multiple properties only because they sacraficed alot of time to get where they are now. You make me sound like some spoiled rich kid. You've got alot or nerve.

Originally Posted by fable

You are arrogant, flakey and hypocritical.

Irony express keeps chugging along, next stop, hypocracy haven.

Originally Posted by fable

You speak against most "doomsayers" then turn around and speak in the same language. You talk about a need for a producation of new economic models, but then talk about not thinking most people are even worth trying to work with.

Still not hypocritical though. There's a method to the madness, I can't help it if you are too emotionally perked up to see the correlation.

Originally Posted by fable

You talk about the need for revolitionary tactics, but you have never excercised them. You act like a teacher, but come off like a preschooler having a tantrum. Anger is one thing, it has clouded my debates often, but your anger is not what has me questioning your resolve. Its your attitude towards organizing, content and time.

If you think you can throw around all your facts about 9/11 and then turn around and bring down capitalism and initiate new models, all the while being an elitist, and factionary, then you will be destroyed by the corrupt powers WE ARE BOTH working against if you are not erradicated by the people you claim to be working with.

Baseless assumptions.

Originally Posted by fable

Your mindset is in chaos. And one cannot face chaos in such a manner. Your comments are unstructured(and im not talking about grammar) and they echo a cluttered mind.

And finally, at the end of your reply, you throw down the most condesending, straight fronting bullshit ever. Discussing revolutionary tactics!?!?!? HAHAHAHA - im sorry markus but you are beggining to sound like a serious joke.

If that's how you see it, I really hope for your sake that you get it straight one day, because you are deeply mistaken.

Originally Posted by fable

People in the movement, whether they are actaully doing any real work need to stick together, but you do not understand this. You are someone who would shit on his comrade just to get some notoriety or some immediate satisfaction.

Says the man reserving judgement.

Originally Posted by fable

I think the beer is out of the question until we have figured out a way to discuss matters at hand in a different way if ever.

Shak

Dude I don't want a beer with someone who first says they are going to reserve judgement, and then takes baseless rumours to the bank and is more interested in insulting me then countering my points.

I may be harsh at times, but I usually make sure that the content is in the driver's seat.

You went and did specifically what I asked people not to do in this thread. Turn it into a silly finger pointing ego game. If you want to keep this up, atleast save the insults, seriously...I thought I was overkilling for a bit but then I read this and all I can say is wow.

I hope it was worth it, I was really looking forward to meeting you.

Originally Posted by fable

although i disagree with marks assesment of most members of society being too ignorant to live

No I make the assesment that their isn't alot of open dialogue on self sustainability...but if we want to keep stiring the shit pot then go ahead.

[fable]

And as you are faced with the specter of accountability, and torn asunder by the bayonett of confrontation, so does the bowels of truth spill out onto the cold and unforgiving concrete.

I'll be seeing you,

In solidarity,

Shak

[bungoshlung]

The movie United 93 (or Flight 93?) is coming out in week or two.

It's purely propaganda and it makes me sick. It should be boycotted.

[esoter1c]

Originally Posted by Rowina

The movie United 93 (or Flight 93?) is coming out in week or two.

It's purely propaganda and it makes me sick. It should be boycotted.

90% of all info is propaganda.

Imagine knowing the truth about everything though.

Would you really want that.

Society and civilisation are built on lies.

Simply put not knowing the truth makes life bearable.

No one wants truth.

[Revolver]

meh.

specifics on dates? treating things as gospel?...umm right.

[God Warrior]

i have the attention span of a hamster. cliffs on this whole thread??