Jessie Macbeth, Iraq Veteran.

[esoter1c]

Originally Posted by ebbomega

She might not have needed that if you hadn't written it like a 14-year-old who just discavirred teh interweb.

Blow me.

[fable]

Originally Posted by P.A.R.T.Y

How do you write about something so unbelievably horrific?
If what Macbeth says is true, then America has opened themselves up for terrorist attacks for the next thousand years. It's just sickening to think that innocent women and children are being murdered for an unjust cause; what would be a legitimate cause to kill innocent human beings?
O Canada...We have been dragged into this never ending war and we sit back idle, content with our daily struggle, our petty materialism, our selfish egoism.
I feel so proud to hear Macbeth speak out against the brutality commited in Iraq, his honest account of what took place and his open plee to soldiers to not continue to participate in random murder.
I think Canada needs to do something very radical;
* WE NEED TO BOYCOTT THE USA *
Fable is right, 3057321C(whatever than means?) is right.
There is something we can do, we can stop supporting trade with a facist country. An embargo with our largest trading partner would severely cripple Canada, but would render the admiration of other nations for centuries. It's time to stop living on our knees!
How am I going to participate? I live in Japan. This country is incredibly conservative. Example: no freedom of expression in Public schools whatsoever. That means: a strict dresscode, no earings, no watches, no makeup, etc. By the time these young adults hit University (which is another strenuous task) the individual will is weakened into submission. No, the Japanese will not support Canada if we boycott the USA.
What am I going to do?
I am going to do something I should have done a long time ago. I am going to start using the machine against itself. I have some resources at my disposal I am going to start doing something progressive towards educating people about the evils that are going on.
I believe that we need to start changing this "killing is alright," mentality.
IT IS NOT ALRIGHT TO KILL!
To the those critics such as ;Goat & Doom: You are entitled to your opinion. But I see how you're playing the devils advocate (trolling). Maybe this was acceptable then, but now that there is a war going on for control of our beliefs, you're reckless comments are furthering the views taken by the enemy.

So folks, just do something, get involved, stop buying made in the USA. research the product, stop selling to the USA for profit, we gotta stop the war fund. Peace.

Im sure your heart is in the right place, and one new person, is one more person working towards a successful movement, but just a few things to consider>

-If organizing around war and occupation is difficult, committing to some style of action that is directed towards impeding upon or breaking down capitalist venture is difficult x 50000000. Why? Personally I think we, as citizens of a strong capitalist society are just not ready yet, mainly because of being far to entrenched in it for quite some time. Hence why antiwar/occupation organizing is used as a vehicle to prepare current and future men and women to have the skills, and resources/ experience to undertake such challenges/

-People are not prepared to dive in headfirst into a boycott of US products because Canadians are large consumers of US products. Products that people have far more loyalty to than you would think. Brand loyalty is an amazingly powerful reality. Add in convenience, affordability and lack of significant viable choice as larger companies swallow smaller companies, and you start to understand the current situation.

>An example> how many people on a daily basis go to starbucks? Why?
-Their coffee is horrible
-Their product (even if it has been labeled "fair trade") is achieved through a process that significantly exploits farmers and farmland in third world nations
-The atmosphere is an amalgamation of gentrification, pop, and contrived bullshit.

And yet Bucks reigns them in! And in the tens of millions on a daily basis!

Now go up to someone and tell them that most of Starbucks head executives support or work with the Jewish National Fund (a Zionist group - working as a charity in Canada - who's main responsibility is to turn annexed Palestinian land into parks as quick as possible until settled) and in turn fund the continual apartheid government of Israel and more often than none, you will either be snubbed, slapped or laughed at.

Why? Its true. And neither the JNF nor Starbucks tried to hide it. So why? Because we are so entrenched in our purchasing behaviors and consumer lifestyle, a significant deviation if plausible would take decades or significant turmoil on the home front.

-That turmoil is happening right now. But it’s spread out. And it’s our responsibility to make the connections, and spread the awareness about who in fact benefits from the turmoil. But the time for massive boycotts is not now. We don’t have enough people. The result would be any participants being severely ostracized. Look how most antiwar protesters are treated. And we have the ability to make direct links between war + corruption/countless innocent lives lost. Try doing the same with something that was sold by Wal-Mart, or home depot, or some massive grain/pasta manufactures/ oil company bla bla bla.

-If someone is willing to pay 1.25$ a liter of gas for his/her SUV, you think they are willing to turn around and boycott some big multinational because of soldiers suffering massive PTSD in Iraq? NO! Not until that person can be convinced of the reality that the war in itself is bullshit, that they take lessons from corrupt wars before it, both internationally and domestically and have nothing to do with the enrichment of life for regular working people/students.

It is also important not to jump on the reactionary US hating bandwagon either. Canada has its share of corrupt and exploitative companies as well, including the most visible being International Mining. Ask Africans, or Latin Americans if they think Canadian big business is any different from US big business. If you are going to decide to launch some sort of boycott, then make sure its not nation specific. Rather focus on the company itself and whom THEY effect.

But in the end of the day I try to practice my own personal boycott of products until the day comes that more people can be united in their actions for greater impact. This list included product from Canada, the US and especially ISRAEL. But obviously there is not significant impact from my individual endeavors.

If there was one specific Canadian based company that I would like to wipe off the face of the planet it would be SNC-Lavelin, whos list of jobs includes supplying the bulk of small arms ammunition to the US in Iraq and construction of a brand new shiny 20 million dollar Canadian Embassy in Haiti.

I know of a few young japanese students who have been organizing with us sporadically. Some have gone back home, and others have friends and family who support their work at home. Ill try to cook up a list of people who you can get in contact with over there when i get a chance.

You could also try to get some support of possible carriers of a social justice newspaper over there, and distribute.
http://www.firethistime.net

stay in touch :)

[diaphorrhoea]

Personally I found this video a little more disturbing.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...76&q=indymedia

[P.A.R.T.Y]

Very good video. Not quite as disturbing as Macbeths statements though.

[wigglesworth]

http://www.qando.net/details.aspx?entry=3918

link debunking this video.

[Senior]

My prediction?

Vietnam < Iraq

Remember it took many years for Vietnam to get rolling and Iraq has been a lot worse a lot earlier. This is even if you just consider US soldiers killed along both timelines. Something to add to this though is that in Vietnam there was something like a 1-2 kill to injury ratio, in Iraq it's along the lines of 1-5 (body armor and such). The thing is that when they say injured it's not a scrape, you're going home missing a limb or similarly debilitaed.

I guess what I see with all of this is that yes this is a war about capatilist interests. I think those interests will really benifit very few people over all (ie those that get control of the oil). This isn't going to mean cheap oil for US consumers. It is going to mean massive profits for some US corporation.

I share some of Goat apathy in regards to this but I look at it diffeingrently. I think one of the biggest underly issues that has driven war for the last 80+ years is oil and now more than ever that the global economy is driven by it. If we find a replacement for oil than it would be a major ease of tension. The problem is that we are no where close to that that I know of.

[Senior]

Originally Posted by wigglesworth

http://www.qando.net/details.aspx?entry=3918

link debunking this video.

It would seem they are right. I guess though I would take this with as much of a grain of salt as I would the original video though (if it were still online...). It seems to prove this guy was a fake but it still does nothing to debunk claims that these things are happening.

I can remember going through a blog that was "debunking" Bowling For Columbine and having a few good laughs. In the movie MM points to a plaque below a B52 bomber that flew raids on Christmas eve saying that it proudly proclaimed they had killed Vietnamese people. The blog pointed out that it actually said they had done one of the largest carpet bombing raids of the war. Isn't that really the same thing? Carpet bombing was and still is meant to indiscriminately kill anything in that area.

There is a middle ground to all of this and it's not as good or bad as either side would like you to believe but it's far from pretty.

For anyone who doubts that rape and violence would be directed to Innocent Iraqi civilians do a little research on the School of the America's (http://www.soaw.org/new/). The US has a long and documented history of violence and rape against civilian populations. This is not in the context of isolated incidents it is how they operate.

Argentina, Chile, Columbia, El Salvador, Guatemala, Venezuela... and many more.

[Senior]

p.s. Henry Kissinger < Condoleezza Rice

and this is the guy that intentionally derailed US/Vietnamese peace talks for his own agenda.

[fable]

oh god, kissinger was one of the greatest jackasses of all time.

[Senior]

Originally Posted by fable

oh god, kissinger was one of the greatest jackasses of all time.

By jackass you mean mass murderer?

[fable]

The US has a long and documented history of violence and rape against civilian populations. This is not in the context of isolated incidents it is how they operate.

The organized practise of these techniques originated in south america when the US was unofficially waging war on various latin american guerilla revolutionary forces. The real birth of contemporary terrorism as we know it.

[esoter1c]

http://www.arcticbeacon.com/24-May-2006.html

What the fuck !? How hard is it to verify whether or not this guys telling the truth or whether he's some lefty propaganda.

[wigglesworth]

This is the problem with "news" like this on the internet. you cant be sure if its real or not. Just like all the videos "proving" 9/11 was an inside job.

Originally Posted by 3507321C

http://www.arcticbeacon.com/24-May-2006.html

What the fuck !? How hard is it to verify whether or not this guys telling the truth or whether he's some lefty propaganda.

[Senior]

Originally Posted by wigglesworth

This is the problem with "news" like this on the internet. you cant be sure if its real or not. Just like all the videos "proving" 9/11 was an inside job.

I'd expand on this to say it's a problem with all news. Critical thinking is needed when presented with any information. Come on now, do you think FOX news is any less biased or more reliable?

[Je$kau$e]

senior its my b day come get some foood

[esoter1c]

Originally Posted by Senior

I'd expand on this to say it's a problem with all news. Critical thinking is needed when presented with any information. Come on now, do you think FOX news is any less biased or more reliable?

Whatever foxnews says the opposite is true.

That's usually how most news is.

[Grapes]

Originally Posted by wigglesworth

This is the problem with "news" like this on the internet. you cant be sure if its real or not. Just like all the videos "proving" 9/11 was an inside job.

Do you think the source you got your link from was better than the initial macbeth links?

These days it's like no-one speaks for themselves anymore. Gotta pick a side :(

[wigglesworth]

Originally Posted by Grapes

Do you think the source you got your link from was better than the initial macbeth links?

These days it's like no-one speaks for themselves anymore. Gotta pick a side :(

Read the whole link and tell me what you think.
im not picking sides....

[Senior]

Originally Posted by Je$kau$e

senior its my b day come get some foood

Somehow I think I know you... Want to fill me in?

[Grapes]

Originally Posted by wigglesworth

Read the whole link and tell me what you think.
im not picking sides....

I did that.. immediately under their evidence were a bunch of comments that seemed to be from right wing thinkers.. a lot of people calling the Macbeth story a "leftoid" front. So I assumed the site was Neo-con.. but then I went to their home page and they were advertising themselves as libertarians.

I thought that meant leaving people to do as they will as long as it doesn't hurt anyone, which doesn't exactly wash with USA's involvement in Iraq. Judging from their site header, anyways, they seem to be on board with capitalism ("Free market, Free people") which would make their defending the Iraq campaign a bit easier to explain.

In the end I was left not really knowing what to think of them, and whether or not to trust their input. These days that's the norm more often than not. Unless the news comes from one of my few trusted sources, like the BBC or Guardian.

[Clayton.]

Originally Posted by fable

The organized practise of these techniques originated in south america when the US was unofficially waging war on various latin american guerilla revolutionary forces. The real birth of contemporary terrorism as we know it.

It was long ago but i would even mention the American horse soldiers murdering women and children and burning down the villages of native American tribes.

[wigglesworth]

the movie has been pulled from the site that was hosting it, as with a lot of other sites.
what does that tell you?

Originally Posted by Grapes

I did that.. immediately under their evidence were a bunch of comments that seemed to be from right wing thinkers.. a lot of people calling the Macbeth story a "leftoid" front. So I assumed the site was Neo-con.. but then I went to their home page and they were advertising themselves as libertarians.

I thought that meant leaving people to do as they will as long as it doesn't hurt anyone, which doesn't exactly wash with USA's involvement in Iraq. Judging from their site header, anyways, they seem to be on board with capitalism ("Free market, Free people") which would make their defending the Iraq campaign a bit easier to explain.

In the end I was left not really knowing what to think of them, and whether or not to trust their input. These days that's the norm more often than not. Unless the news comes from one of my few trusted sources, like the BBC or Guardian.

[Senior]

Originally Posted by wigglesworth

the movie has been pulled from the site that was hosting it, as with a lot of other sites.
what does that tell you?

I think what he's getting at is that the site that you linked to seems just as lacking in credibility. We all have our bias but what makes the difference when forming an opinion is looking a bit deeper. That sight was going along the lines of debunking that video and therefore debunking it's claims. What I was getting at is that it didn't even address the issues. All it did was attack the people's credibility involved, quite well I might add.

[fable]

Originally Posted by Ever666

It was long ago but i would even mention the American horse soldiers murdering women and children and burning down the villages of native American tribes.

No doubt. The same goes for Canada as well. It usaully falls under the category of "colonization" as if this is supposed to mask the horror of what essentially was genocide across the continent.

But in terms of classic definitions of terrorism, the respective acts are supposed to severely demoralize revolutionary movements, or civilian populations as means of instilling a level of control and passivety.

What early forces where doing to north american natives was was an attempt to wipe them off the planet.

[Clayton.]

I wonder how many American citizens are aware that they're ancestors traded in the scalps of woman and children for a bounty back then just as easy as trading pop cans for a refund today.