Is Ottawa listening in? No one seems to care

[djmarkpaul]

Click here for the full article


In Canada, everything is muted. These days, Americans are agonizing over revelations that their government taps private telephone calls without judicial authorization. But Ottawa has long been doing the same thing — without a whisper of complaint from public or press.

In Canada, George W. Bush's attempts to infringe on the liberties of his citizens receive considerable attention. Yet, similar efforts by the Canadian government do not.

Last week, when federal Privacy Commissioner Jennifer Stoddart slammed the slipshod way in which Ottawa passes along personal information about Canadians to the U.S., her report merited 459 words in The Globe And Mail, 200 words in the National Post and 140 words in this newspaper.

This week, when former Supreme Court chief justice Antonio Lamer hinted that a secretive government snooping agency called the Communications Security Establishment may be breaking the law, he received 630 words on page eight of the Globe, nothing in the Post or Star and 126 words in The Record of Kitchener-Waterloo.

The reasons for this rather blasé attitude on the part of Canadians and their press tribunes stem from this country's overweening culture of bureaucratization.

As a result, by the time Canadians figure out what has happened, they are already bored.

Governments appoint independent watchdogs to supervise particularly sensitive matters. But more often than not, these watchdogs adopt the bureaucratic sensibilities of those they are overseeing — with the result that, when they do say something noteworthy, it is almost incomprehensible.

Which brings us to the Communications Security Establishment, a body that intercepts telecommunications traffic.

In late 2001, Parliament quietly gave this agency Bush-like authority to monitor Canadian telephone and Internet traffic without judicial warrant — as long as one of the parties was outside the country and the minister of defence agreed.

Ottawa also appointed a watchdog, latterly Lamer, to ensure that the agency kept within the law.

In his most recent report...he disagrees with this interpretation (he doesn't explain how) and that, in any case, the agency is not giving him enough information to determine whether its surveillance of Canadians is necessary.

Or, as he puts it, in the mind-numbing language of Canadian bureaucratese: "The lack of clarity in this regard has made it difficult for my staff to assess compliance with certain of the conditions that the legislation requires to be satisfied before a ministerial authorization is given."

Which, simply put, means Canada's electronic snoops may be breaking the law but Lamer doesn't know for sure since no one will tell him.

A final note: Canadian media are currently seized by the latest controversy surrounding Bush's war on terror — the revelation that, since 2001, the U.S. has been secretly monitoring worldwide financial transactions. Was CIA given access to our bank records? the Star asked on its front page Wednesday.

In fact, as the Star story points out in its final two paragraphs, the answer to this question is a clear yes. Since 2002, U.S. and other foreign security services have had access to Canadian bank records involving international transfers worth more than $10,000. I don't recall anyone complaining at the time. Indeed, the only published criticism levelled at the new legislation since then is that it isn't intrusive enough. Very Canadian.


BTW anyone know who did the Census this year? A special prize awaits for the first person with the correct answer.

[tiedye]

According to their website, Statistics Canada did it this year, as always.

And this article was a great read. It's kind of an eye opener as to how sly our government can be. We always think they're above it, but to be honest, they just might be better at covering shit up than the US.

[mapleleaf4ever]

Apparently it was some American Corporation that did the Data Compilation from what I heard.

You've never heard of the CSE before? lol

They're where ever Canadian Embassies are to be found monitoring all sorts of communications in the host Countries. I'd have to say it's one of the few Intelligence Organizations in Canada that is worth having as they actually do shit.

[tiedye]

You're right.. apparently it was Lockheed Martin, a weapons manufacturer.

[mapleleaf4ever]

Lockheed Martin doesn't just do Weapons.

They're primarily an Aerospace Manufacturer. They created the SR-71 Blackbird and the U2 Recon Aircraft. Also, they bought out a couple other Aviation Companies in the States.

[djmarkpaul]

Originally Posted by mapleleaf4ever

You've never heard of the CSE before? lol

Actually I have. They were quite an asset to our country during the cold war. Since then, times have changed.

Originally Posted by mapleleaf4ever

I'd have to say it's one of the few Intelligence Organizations in Canada that is worth having as they actually do shit.

Like wiretapping it's citizen's without a warrent...well, I guess I could agree in some sense, as I would file that under "shit" as well.

[djmarkpaul]

Originally Posted by tiedye

You're right.. apparently it was Lockheed Martin, a weapons manufacturer.

DING DING DING DING DING!

Your prize as promised:


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http://www.metacafe.com/watch/97700/tom_and_jerry/

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/21070/...at_their_best/

http://www.wimp.com/teacherpranked

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...00733466919384

[djmarkpaul]

Originally Posted by mapleleaf4ever

Lockheed Martin doesn't just do Weapons.

They're primarily an Aerospace Manufacturer. They created the SR-71 Blackbird and the U2 Recon Aircraft. Also, they bought out a couple other Aviation Companies in the States.

You're absolutely right, Lockheed Martin has big plans, that don't just do weapons. However, it would be naive to think that for them, war isn't another business. Do you know where they housed the SR-71 during prototype stages by chance?

Also, you seem to be quite the obvious patriot (this a little off topic but still noteworthy)... could you indulge me with some criticism you have for our Country...if you have any that is :P ?

http://www.countmeout.ca

[mapleleaf4ever]

I've got plenty of criticism. lol But I'm sure if I digressed into those I'd have about a good 95% of this Board and anyone from the Gulf Islands or other NDP/Liberal/Green Strongholds pissed off at me.

Personally I keep my views to myself and direct my criticism towards places it will make a difference. When I was in Vancouver I was involved with a couple Youth Liberal Think Tanks and a Candidate of a Red Cross 3rd World Development Conference. Some of the suggestions from that Event were actually made into National Policy. I don't waste my time preaching to others. If there's a problem with my Nation, I'll send a letter to my MP or other such figures.

[fable]

Personally I keep my views to myself and direct my criticism towards places it will make a difference. When I was in Vancouver I was involved with a couple Youth Liberal Think Tanks and a Candidate of a Red Cross 3rd World Development Conference. Some of the suggestions from that Event were actually made into National Policy. I don't waste my time preaching to others. If there's a problem with my Nation, I'll send a letter to my MP or other such figures.

Wow, even your efforts to eventaully be a military man pail in comparison next to the shear reactionary core of this statement. The military is armed, trained, efficient, organized and prepared for all manner of environments. The only drawback is they are fighting for the wrong side. YOUR comment on the other hand is indicative of a mindset that SUBSTAINS the wrong side.

Your approach is individualistic, does not involve regular citizens such as yourself and puts the ultimate control in someone elses hands, who despite your opinion, does not give a shit about you.

"youth liberal think tanks!?!?!?!" Yuck! I like you better as a blind nationalist! :)

[mapleleaf4ever]

Better a thinking individual than a mindless Clone.

Fighting for the wrong side as seen by you. Fighting for the right side as seen by others. Who is on the wrong side is one of the most subjective things of ages past and will be on to the future.

"You're either with us or against us!" can easily apply to both sides.

[fable]

Originally Posted by mapleleaf4ever

Better a thinking individual than a mindless Clone.

Fighting for the wrong side as seen by you. Fighting for the right side as seen by others. Who is on the wrong side is one of the most subjective things of ages past and will be on to the future.

"You're either with us or against us!" can easily apply to both sides.

Mindless clone? If one studied even the stereotypical characters in respective ideologies, the highest instances of what could be described as free thinking men and women were most commenly people who where labelled radicals. Malcom X, Che Guevera, Angela Davis, Martin Luther King, Ghandi..... These where all people who understood significant change would come in the form of ordinary people united in mass movements. Where these people mindless clones?

In contemporary culture the individual is in fact the hyper individual, and this role is more a product of capitalism and consumerist ideals than anything else. Roles, and opinions that where once thought of as radical and anti-status quo have largely become cliched and parodies of what they once began.

Make sure you arent confusing individuality with a need to be noticed, and "special" Because you arent. Im not either. The only true reality that can be considered "special' in this day and age is our ability to change. This amplified by the masses understanding the realities of their environment, and coming together en mass is real power, and of real substance.

I dont talk about which side actaully has god behind them, or which side is "good" or "evil" I leave that intangible bullshit for the academics. Im talking about real, living, breathing oppression. The kind that is created by capitaliam/imperialism and injects its tactics into the general public.

Im glad that you think you are an "individual" to the point that you had to communicate to someone else. But really all that means is that your either alone, cynical, confused or corrupt. All of which I would rather take ignorance over.

On a side note, where do you think your notions of "individuality" stand in a national military force? A military force you support, and a military force that carries out the agenda set by the government you also support, and respresent a class that you may or may not know much about?

ez

ps: "you are either with us or against us" is a far cry from "you are either oppressing or being oppressed" The former has not context or relationship with objective conditions, whereas the latter is entrenched in class disparity and inequality.

[esoter1c]

If anyone wants to listen to my phone calls, go right ahead.

You wanna hear me chat about sweet fuck all to nobodys, be my guest.

Who gives a fuck.

Oh yeah, fuck census, I've never filled one out in my life, never will.

[mapleleaf4ever]

Originally Posted by fable

This amplified by the masses understanding the realities of their environment, and coming together en mass is real power, and of real substance.

Wow, sounds like this guy... what's his name? Marx? :p

Originally Posted by fable

Im glad that you think you are an "individual" to the point that you had to communicate to someone else. But really all that means is that your either alone, cynical, confused or corrupt. All of which I would rather take ignorance over.

Yeah, I'm not special for sure. Cynical, yeah, you can say that. There's a lot that pisses me off and alone, yup... I'm alone and over 2,000 miles away from anyone that means anything to me. DAMN! YOU SHOULD READ TAROT CARDS! ;)

Originally Posted by fable

On a side note, where do you think your notions of "individuality" stand in a national military force? A military force you support, and a military force that carries out the agenda set by the government you also support, and respresent a class that you may or may not know much about?

The notions of "individuality" are promoted amongst people in Leadership roles. In other words when you recieve orders... there is flexibility allowed in them. The Leader has the options to achieve the set objective in a way that he/she sees fit with the resources at hand. They don't have to follow it letter-for-letter as would say a Tank Commander in the Soviet Forces circa 1955. As for the class I may or may not know about... I'll admit to that. It depends on what class you speak of. I come from the Middle Class. Big deal... most of us do. I'd like to think that as a member of the Armed Forces I'm defending Canada and everyone not just a select few. Excuse me for being an idealistic nationalist.

Originally Posted by fable

ps: "you are either with us or against us" is a far cry from "you are either oppressing or being oppressed" The former has not context or relationship with objective conditions, whereas the latter is entrenched in class disparity and inequality.

The Canadian Forces are not oppressing the citizens of Canada. Take a look around guy... do you see Checkpoints and Soliders everywhere? If anyone is oppressing Citizens in Canada... and from what I've seen. No one here is. It'd be possibly Parliament. From wandering around Toronto and seeing the shitty neighbourhood and violence in the streets here, maybe some oppression is in order.

[Scarface]

If you don't plan on blowing anything up...then what are you worried about? If the government want's to listen to me hash out my shitty pedestrian existence on my phone ..so be it. If it adds up to one less plane flown into one less building, listen away. 1984 here we come.

[djmarkpaul]

Originally Posted by mapleleaf4ever

The Canadian Forces are not oppressing the citizens of Canada. Take a look around guy... do you see Checkpoints and Soliders everywhere?

Actually you are incorrect ....just because it's not on CBC, CTV, or CNN, doesn't mean it's not happening:

Canadian Military Police Kidnap, Detain, Torture Bilderberg Investigators

[djmarkpaul]

Originally Posted by Scarface

If you don't plan on blowing anything up...then what are you worried about?

You are entirely missing the point. This is the kind of reaction I have come to expect by an abundant amount of disenfranchised folks like yourself. Whatever happened to living in a free country? Where I didn't have to worry about some Gestapo breathing down my back, or snooping in on my personal life listening to my personal calls?

I am worried we are growing up in a society of lemmings, where our rights are slowly being stripped away mechanically, one by one, with an ever growing private sector getting their hands in the lot. I am worried about the notion of one day we may be shipped to the camps as is happening in China, but I'm even more worried about the notion of us not doing anything about it.

Originally Posted by Scarface

If the government want's to listen to me hash out my shitty pedestrian existence on my phone ..so be it. If it adds up to one less plane flown into one less building, listen away. 1984 here we come.

The planes didn't just fly themselves, but this kind of apathy only gives government more incentive to engineer such events for it's own gain. When Larry Silverstein can go on a national documentry and casually say they blew up building # 7 in a controlled demolition and the average person can't add up that the story doesn't add up, maybe these wars are just a cleansing of all the unworthy...it's just too bad there have to be innocent people caught up in the crossfire. Be that as it may, I would rather fight against what I disagree with and not get what I want then simply to lay down and admit defeat.

BTW Blake, it's up the road not across the street. :P

[Scarface]

Originally Posted by djmarkpaul

You are entirely missing the point. This is the kind of reaction I have come to expect by an abundant amount of disenfranchised folks like yourself. Whatever happened to living in a free country? Where I didn't have to worry about some Gestapo breathing down my back, or snooping in on my personal life listening to my personal calls?

I am worried we are growing up in a society of lemmings, where our rights are slowly being stripped away mechanically, one by one, with an ever growing private sector getting their hands in the lot. I am worried about the notion of one day we may be shipped to the camps as is happening in China, but I'm even more worried about the notion of us not doing anything about it.



The planes didn't just fly themselves, but this kind of apathy only gives government more incentive to engineer such events for it's own gain. When Larry Silverstein can go on a national documentry and casually say they blew up building # 7 in a controlled demolition and the average person can't add up that the story doesn't add up, maybe these wars are just a cleansing of all the unworthy...it's just too bad there have to be innocent people caught up in the crossfire. Be that as it may, I would rather fight against what I disagree with and not get what I want then simply to lay down and admit defeat.

BTW Blake, it's up the road not across the street. :P

Lemmings...like all of the bleeding heart liberals who believe that right wing conservatives are the "bad guys". Did you ever stop to think that maybe your ideologies aren't correct? Myabe the way you think is the wrong way?

PLEASE stop comparing canada with the Gestapo. You seem way smarter than that. Shipped to camps ...like in china? Oh please. Melodramatics. "the man" doesn't exist ...there isn't some guy somewhere doing things to strip us of our freedom. And remember , just because you're paranoid , don't mean they're not after you . "lol"

[Scarface]

Originally Posted by djmarkpaul

innocent people

No such thing. We all have blood on our hands.

[djmarkpaul]

Originally Posted by Scarface

Lemmings...like all of the bleeding heart liberals who believe that right wing conservatives are the "bad guys". Did you ever stop to think that maybe your ideologies aren't correct? Myabe the way you think is the wrong way?

I put to question my ideologies every single day. By questioning our beliefs, we safeguard the inevitability of being ruled by them. How about you, ever thought maybe YOUR ideologies were incorrect?

Believe me when I say this I have my issues with "bleeding heart liberals" as you so put it. Though to me the only "bad guys" are the warmongers of all nations that go to occupy other countries, or their own, and haven't the faintest idea of the laws that govern their nation, or simply don't care.

Do you agree with the so-called "anti-terrorist" legislation that parliament passed relatively in secret not long after 9/11? Do you buy the "official" version?

How about no right for property ownership in our Charter?

Originally Posted by Scarface

PLEASE stop comparing canada with the Gestapo. You seem way smarter than that. Shipped to camps ...like in china? Oh please. Melodramatics. "the man" doesn't exist ...there isn't some guy somewhere doing things to strip us of our freedom. And remember , just because you're paranoid , don't mean they're not after you . "lol"

Not melodramatics, perhaps overly blunt, but it's not the same thing. Do you even know what goes on in China now?

Here's a quick video for a small idea of what's going on in China

Canada uses psychological torture on the record even though it breaks the law there pal, who knows what's being kept off the radar *ahem*.

BTW this is not a laughing matter, and I don't care if it takes the edge off, it's childish to "lol" about this...though I must say, putting random words into quotes really legitimizes your counter points....oh wait a minute, you don't have any of those....a shocking revelation!

Originally Posted by Scarface

No such thing. We all have blood on our hands.

I don't have blood on my hands, and I don't plan on killing anyone either any time soon, especially someone I never met, in cold precision, from the barrel of a gun.

I have come across many warmongers that have loved to use that same excuse (and I'm not assuming you're one, though you do seem pretty jaded). I do have to disagree though, children are for the most part, innocent....that is, before they are indoctrinated by the state to go fight against the "bad guys".

[Scarface]

Originally Posted by djmarkpaul

I put to question my ideologies every single day. By questioning our beliefs, we safeguard the inevitability of being ruled by them. How about you, ever thought maybe YOUR ideologies were incorrect?

Believe me when I say this I have my issues with "bleeding heart liberals" as you so put it. Though to me the only "bad guys" are the warmongers of all nations that go to occupy other countries, or their own, and haven't the faintest idea of the laws that govern their nation, or simply don't care.

Do you agree with the so-called "anti-terrorist" legislation that parliament passed relatively in secret not long after 9/11? Do you buy the "official" version?

How about no right for property ownership in our Charter?



Not melodramatics, perhaps overly blunt, but it's not the same thing. Do you even know what goes on in China now?

Here's a quick video for a small idea of what's going on in China

Canada uses psychological torture on the record even though it breaks the law there pal, who knows what's being kept off the radar *ahem*.

BTW this is not a laughing matter, and I don't care if it takes the edge off, it's childish to "lol" about this...though I must say, putting random words into quotes really legitimizes your counter points....oh wait a minute, you don't have any of those....a shocking revelation!





I don't have blood on my hands, and I don't plan on killing anyone either any time soon, especially someone I never met, in cold precision, from the barrel of a gun.

I have come across many warmongers that have loved to use that same excuse (and I'm not assuming you're one, though you do seem pretty jaded). I do have to disagree though, children are for the most part, innocent....that is, before they are indoctrinated by the state to go fight against the "bad guys".

OK , guy. You win. What was i thinking. You are totally right. You should write pamphlets or something. I'm not trying to change minds...just stating my opinion. If we lived in the time of gestapo , that wouldn't be possible. Ahem* alarmist. The "lol" was in quotes because i laughed when i read your post, and under your username it says "l337".

[djmarkpaul]

Originally Posted by Scarface

OK , guy. You win. What was i thinking. You are totally right. You should write pamphlets or something. I'm not trying to change minds...just stating my opinion. If we lived in the time of gestapo , that wouldn't be possible. Ahem* alarmist. The "lol" was in quotes because i laughed when i read your post, and under your username it says "l337".

I'm not trying to change your mind, infact, I don't believe I can in your current emotional stature. I just want to point out that folks that share your opinion are for the most part either jaded, or misinformed. I do this because it pleases my ego, and there's an off chance that I am doing the right thing.

BTW my tag 1337 is in jest, and isn't in quotes...and you don't have to put lol in quotes, as laughing out loud implies you did it out loud. Thanks for coming out, don't let the door hit your ass on your way out.

[Scarface]

Originally Posted by djmarkpaul

I'm not trying to change your mind, infact, I don't believe I can in your current emotional stature. I just want to point out that folks that share your opinion are for the most part either jaded, or misinformed. I do this because it pleases my ego, and there's an off chance that I am doing the right thing.

BTW my tag 1337 is in jest, and isn't in quotes...and you don't have to put lol in quotes, as laughing out loud implies you did it out loud. Thanks for coming out, don't let the door hit your ass on your way out.

Wow man , you're so affected. Make sure to trade in your soap box for a tinfoil hat. MLB is watching. I seriously "lol'ed" at the emotional stature comment. Pffffft.

[djmarkpaul]

Originally Posted by Scarface

Wow man , you're so affected. Make sure to trade in your soap box for a tinfoil hat. MLB is watching. I seriously "lol'ed" at the emotional stature comment. Pffffft.

Played, used up, and spat out. You got nothing but ad hominems, played rhetoric, and mind numbing ignorance galore........and another bites the dust! BTW, tinfoil hats are a good conductor, but I only wear mine when I'm channeling CNN.

[Scarface]

Originally Posted by djmarkpaul

Played, used up, and spat out. You got nothing but ad hominems, played rhetoric, and mind numbing ignorance galore........and another bites the dust! BTW, tinfoil hats are a good conductor, but I only wear mine when I'm channeling CNN.

Played Rhetoric? I love irony. Mind numbing ignorance? Didn't we just address the matter of opinion thing? Jaded and misinformed? If social injustice is this troubling for you , it's going to be a sad existence. Spend more time actually doing something instead of pwning lowly ignorant rednecks like me on the internet. Get a sandwich board and march on ottawa. Burn your bra.... write a letter to your MP.

Spaghetti , spaghetti, spaghetti.