canadian bullets>

[fable]

i know i said no politics for awhile, but im going to post up some links and articles from time to time. The following are surrounding the montreal based company SNC Lavalin Group that is and will continue to supply 300-500 million bullets (small calibre) to the US War Drive in Iraq.

This is one of several examples of the government of Canada taking an active role or allowing private companies to take an active role in the war in Iraq, after Feb of 2003 when it was stated that we would not support the War in Iraq by then prime minister Jean Chetien.

Other examples of Canada being involved in the war, include a reported ten pilots involved in bombing missions, a rotating force of 25-50 troops, a support force with an aircraft recon force as well as bing involved in the last vote on the latest constitution draft. More links will be added, from time to time.

peace+respect
shak

http://www.metacrawler.com/info.meta...fm?ItemID=6188

http://www.metacrawler.com/info.meta...NCpamphlet.doc

[Vitamin-X]

Meh ,

Everyone needs bullets :230:

Who doesn't need bullets?

I know I could use some bullets :)

[SEAN!]

you said canadian GOVERNMENT right, snc lavalin is a private sector company it is not owned by the canadian government nor can the canadian government tell them what they can sell and who they can sell it too, nor should they be able too.

as for the canadian pilots as far as i know all of those pilots are on exchange missions with the american and british armed forces, which is really quite regular my own grandfather served on american helicopters while on exchange from the canadian navy. its actually the individual pilot's choice to participate and not an indication of the canadian government's stance toward the war in iraq.

[BongMan]

I guess his world and the real world just don't coincide together. Sorry for the knock but Sean is totally right.

[fable]

Originally Posted by BongMan

I guess his world and the real world just don't coincide together. Sorry for the knock but Sean is totally right.

Agree with sean all you want, but take a lesson from how he puts his points across. I may completely disagree with everything he says, but he writes in a way condusive to debate, and ill return the courtesy. I would appreciate if you follow suit, respect me,everyone else and the specific context of THIS thread. Thankyou.

you said canadian GOVERNMENT right, snc lavalin is a private sector company it is not owned by the canadian government nor can the canadian government tell them what they can sell and who they can sell it too, nor should they be able too.

Apologies, i posted incorrectly. I was referring to the relationship between the government and the company. You are completely right about SNC-lavalin being private, but the sale of bullets isnt an isolated action. The reality probably came closer to resembling the US government asking for aid in respect to amunition and then government in relationship with SNC-lavalin facilatates the deal going through. Technically the government doesnt have a say, and theoretically they shouldnt as the worst case scenarios would spell governmental interference in all aspects of private business. But do we see our government or any government following this?

If our government decided not to support the US lead war and occupation of Iraq, because theyre given reasons included that they felt any action should be lead and enacted by the UN, then, then it would be acceptable to hold them to such a decision now now? And if we can operate on this assumption for debates sake, then doesnt the supply of the given ammount of bullets over the next five years to assist the US in their "illegal war and occupation" count as active support of the war and occupation itself?

Now back to government not having the right to interfere - its less about actaully having the right or not, and everything to do with the government fully supporting the sale of the bullets. This is the point i wanted to put across for duiscussion.

-If you dont support the war in Iraq, then why support the sale of bullets to the US so they can carry out the war in Iraq?

[SEAN!]

Originally Posted by fable

Agree with sean all you want, but take a lesson from how he puts his points across. I may completely disagree with everything he says, but he writes in a way condusive to debate, and ill return the courtesy. I would appreciate if you follow suit, respect me,everyone else and the specific context of THIS thread. Thankyou.



Apologies, i posted incorrectly. I was referring to the relationship between the government and the company. You are completely right about SNC-lavalin being private, but the sale of bullets isnt an isolated action. The reality probably came closer to resembling the US government asking for aid in respect to amunition and then government in relationship with SNC-lavalin facilatates the deal going through. Technically the government doesnt have a say, and theoretically they shouldnt as the worst case scenarios would spell governmental interference in all aspects of private business. But do we see our government or any government following this?

If our government decided not to support the US lead war and occupation of Iraq, because theyre given reasons included that they felt any action should be lead and enacted by the UN, then, then it would be acceptable to hold them to such a decision now now? And if we can operate on this assumption for debates sake, then doesnt the supply of the given ammount of bullets over the next five years to assist the US in their "illegal war and occupation" count as active support of the war and occupation itself?

Now back to government not having the right to interfere - its less about actaully having the right or not, and everything to do with the government fully supporting the sale of the bullets. This is the point i wanted to put across for duiscussion.

-If you dont support the war in Iraq, then why support the sale of bullets to the US so they can carry out the war in Iraq?

i dont get how the actions of snc technologies can be anyway an indication of canadian government policies, they are part of a global conglomerate that just happens to be headquatered in montreal and listed on the TSX. its quite possible that the bullets arent even being manufactured in canada, i cant find that out. also it is unlikely that the canadian government is even aware of the fact that snc tec was bidding on this contract, let alone won it. alot of the times they have trouble keeping track of the companies that bid on their own contracts, or hire outside help to over see them. i know because i used to bid on government contracts all the time at my old job. therefore it is unlikely that they have given any support to snc tec, as they tend not to interfer with the policies of companies outside the financial sector beyond regulating their labour and environmental standards. the only way i could see that the canadian government is supporting the war in iraq via snc tec is if the canadian government subsidizes snc tec or its parent snc, and even then its a tenous link at best as subsidies are only given if the company continues to employ canadians and its rare that other stipulations are made upon the operations of subsidized companies.

p.s i find making money off of death and suffering quite unpelasant but snc tec is entirely autonomus from the canadian government, i would have a serious problem if the canadian government or a government owned corporation were to supply weapons to the united states war effort but that is clearly not the case in this situation

[mapleleaf4ever]

Hey, at least they're contributing to the Canadian Economy... better they buy their muntions from us than China.

[fable]

Originally Posted by SEAN!

i dont get how the actions of snc technologies can be anyway an indication of canadian government policies, they are part of a global conglomerate that just happens to be headquatered in montreal and listed on the TSX. its quite possible that the bullets arent even being manufactured in canada, i cant find that out. also it is unlikely that the canadian government is even aware of the fact that snc tec was bidding on this contract, let alone won it. alot of the times they have trouble keeping track of the companies that bid on their own contracts, or hire outside help to over see them. i know because i used to bid on government contracts all the time at my old job. therefore it is unlikely that they have given any support to snc tec, as they tend not to interfer with the policies of companies outside the financial sector beyond regulating their labour and environmental standards. the only way i could see that the canadian government is supporting the war in iraq via snc tec is if the canadian government subsidizes snc tec or its parent snc, and even then its a tenous link at best as subsidies are only given if the company continues to employ canadians and its rare that other stipulations are made upon the operations of subsidized companies.

p.s i find making money off of death and suffering quite unpelasant but snc tec is entirely autonomus from the canadian government, i would have a serious problem if the canadian government or a government owned corporation were to supply weapons to the united states war effort but that is clearly not the case in this situation

Im operating under the belief that there is a relationship between government and big business. I could write encyclopedia 10x over of examples in Canada and abroad.

Selling bullets to supply an illegal war and occupation in my mind is not autnomous, from government or the violence and legality of the Iraq war itself.

But we are at a standstill of opinion based on different ideological beliefs and to date i dont have any tangible evidence that there is a connection between SNC-Lavalin and our governments agenda of imperailistic expansion, other than believing our government does not have the interests of nations such as Iraq, Afghanistan and Haiti as priorities, but then that may or may not be a problem for canadian citizens.

peace+respect
fable

[fable]

Originally Posted by mapleleaf4ever

Hey, at least they're contributing to the Canadian Economy... better they buy their muntions from us than China.

I cant speak for the entire population, i can only speak for myself, and i know that if i belive that the war in Iraq is wrong in every sence of the word, how could I support the sale of bullets to the US.

peace+respect
fable

[-evil-duerr-]

Originally Posted by mapleleaf4ever

Hey, at least they're contributing to the Canadian Economy... better they buy their muntions from us than China.

^Exactly.

The war is gonna go on regardless of how canadians feel.

At least there are a few guys out there smart enough to make money off it.

[Goat]

I may completely disagree with everything he says, but he writes in a way condusive to debate, and ill return the courtesy.

Eat shit and cry me a river. You're preaching, not spear heading a debate, to an audience that pops pills and digs colourfull blinky lights. You know what, you've obviously got a handle on the way the world works and a set of strong moral values. Why do you wast your time spouting your moral outrage on a raver message board? For someone who makes, for the most part, fairly intelligent posts, why do you waste your time preaching here? The revolution isn't going to start on fnk.ca and it's not going to be started by any geek behind a computer. Go out and do something with your outrage and, for fucks sake, quit being an overdramatic knob.

[BongMan]

he leads a boring life maybe

[SEAN!]

Originally Posted by fable

Im operating under the belief that there is a relationship between government and big business. I could write encyclopedia 10x over of examples in Canada and abroad.

Selling bullets to supply an illegal war and occupation in my mind is not autnomous, from government or the violence and legality of the Iraq war itself.

But we are at a standstill of opinion based on different ideological beliefs and to date i dont have any tangible evidence that there is a connection between SNC-Lavalin and our governments agenda of imperailistic expansion, other than believing our government does not have the interests of nations such as Iraq, Afghanistan and Haiti as priorities, but then that may or may not be a problem for canadian citizens.

peace+respect
fable

there is very little relationship between the government and big business in this country atleast. big business tend to support governments that stay out of their way and thats pretty much the extent of the relationship. in countries where business and government are closely tied together (s.korea, japan, the scandinavia countries) there is little support for war with anyone and the participation of those countries in the current war is largely dictated by concerns which are almost entirely political in nature. pro-business lobbyist tend to want less regulation, lower taxes, better management of government finances, freetrade and most importantly improved infrastructure(schools, roads etc) other then trade agreements its rare that business lobbies have an opinion on foreign affairs, and when they do they are typically antiwar because beleive it or not war is actually very bad for the economy and its rare for companies to benefit from it. Businesses crave stability as it keeps people from spending and they can pretty much adjust to everything else. also the term big business and the way you use it is a joke because the reality is business is business no matter what the size of the company and what is good for big business is usually also good for small businesses.

[fable]

Originally Posted by Goat

Eat shit and cry me a river. You're preaching, not spear heading a debate, to an audience that pops pills and digs colourfull blinky lights. You know what, you've obviously got a handle on the way the world works and a set of strong moral values. Why do you wast your time spouting your moral outrage on a raver message board? For someone who makes, for the most part, fairly intelligent posts, why do you waste your time preaching here? The revolution isn't going to start on fnk.ca and it's not going to be started by any geek behind a computer. Go out and do something with your outrage and, for fucks sake, quit being an overdramatic knob.

my work is extensive, all encompassing and always going in new directions. Music and social awareness go hand in hand. It did in 93' when i first really started trying to become part of any "scene" and it is like that now. Hence i figure, if one or two cats, get into different states of thinking as a result of reading some info, or getting into a debate then why not.

How was this last article, not an example of debate? Me and sean1 seem to be discussing things? If you dont want all the power to you. If you care to share your thoughts and feeling with me in person, id be more than happy to hear what you have to say. Otherwise id appreciate a little less personal attacks and little more conversation on the topic of this thread. Dont like it? Dont read it.

have a good one-

peace+respect
shakeel

[fable]

Originally Posted by BongMan

he leads a boring life maybe

perhaps?

do you have anything to share on the actaul topic of this thread? Or are you just loitering as usaull? Id love to hear what you have to say? Otherwise im sure theres some conversation more suited to your need for shits and giggles elsewhere.

have a good one

peace+respect
shakeel

[Cdn_Brdr]

Originally Posted by fable

i know i said no politics for awhile, but im going to post up some links and articles from time to time

You fucking promised! Not only are you a preachy wanker.... now you're a FUCKING LIAR!!

OMG I HATE YOU SO MUCH! HOW COULD YOU FUCKING BREAK YOUR PROMISE SO EASILY? I HAD FAITH IN YOU FABLE!!! GOD DAMMIT SHAKALAKA!!!

You're such an IDIOT..... GOSH!



P.S. - Guns are totally bad.... that's my stance.

[fable]

Originally Posted by Cdn_Brdr

You fucking promised! Not only are you a preachy wanker.... now you're a FUCKING LIAR!!

OMG I HATE YOU SO MUCH! HOW COULD YOU FUCKING BREAK YOUR PROMISE SO EASILY? I HAD FAITH IN YOU FABLE!!! GOD DAMMIT SHAKALAKA!!!

You're such an IDIOT..... GOSH!

P.S. - Guns are totally bad.... that's my stance.

that was feeble. Perhaps you should take the day off. Maybe go to the park, take a bath, listen to sara machlachlan and sip a nice rose? You know, your usaul weekend wind down.

have a good one, im off to spread more of my lies-
peace+respect
fable

[Cdn_Brdr]

Originally Posted by fable

Perhaps you should take the day off. Maybe go to the park, take a bath, listen to sara machlachlan and sip a nice rose? You know, your usaul weekend wind down

You say this like it's a bad thing???

[matéo]

I found this thread less annoying and more informative.

PS: its SEAN(!) not SEAN1

[fable]

Originally Posted by matéo

I found this thread less annoying and more informative.

PS: its SEAN(!) not SEAN1

i strive and toil for your approval.

peace+respect
fable

[fable]

There is very little relationship between the government and big business in this country atleast. big business tend to support governments that stay out of their way and thats pretty much the extent of the relationship. in countries where business and government are closely tied together (s.korea, japan, the scandinavia countries) there is little support for war with anyone and the participation of those countries in the current war is largely dictated by concerns which are almost entirely political in nature. pro-business lobbyist tend to want less regulation, lower taxes, better management of government finances, freetrade and most importantly improved infrastructure(schools, roads etc) other then trade agreements its rare that business lobbies have an opinion on foreign affairs, and when they do they are typically antiwar because beleive it or not war is actually very bad for the economy and its rare for companies to benefit from it. Businesses crave stability as it keeps people from spending and they can pretty much adjust to everything else. also the term big business and the way you use it is a joke because the reality is business is business no matter what the size of the company and what is good for big business is usually also good for small businesses.

I dont believe this at all. I think it has been proven time and time again in Canadian history either "on the record" or off that there has ALWAYS been strong ties with government and corporate bodies. The relationship has become inherent when defining the political landscape at home and abroad. Businesses need to profit and expand, and realistically after a certain point of growth, on top of R+D, marketing, strategizing, conceptualizing, team building, technology chasing and self assessment, the only viable directions to take are through aid, support and manipulation of governments. I dont really know how one could believe otherwise without completely ignoring the nature of our government and large businesses?

The treasury board of Canada identifies with the idea of corporation when communicating their own identity:

http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/fip-pcim/man_1_0_e.asp

And this is just at the ideological stage. How do specific businesses go about acquiring contracts? Simply because of their business plan? Education contracts, Civil contracts , communication contracts, defense contracts, security contracts. Where is there a facet of government and NOT private business? So with understanding this, do you truly believe that there are no personal bonds, no "behind the scenes bargaining" no "back scratching?"

The Conference board of Canada, in a section revolving around corporate opportunities in and out of the context of national policies, mentioned "Global pressures are forcing corporations to think differently about their societal impact." in the summary in one of their studies/reports. http://www.conferenceboard.ca/GCSR/research/default.htm

Even admitting such an phenomenon would lead one to assume that if their are corporations and businesses that are aware and sensitive to such global pressures, then there would be others that arent or do not care? And in the realm of "global societal issues" isnt governance a primary focus?

Heres yet another government site focussed on Social Corporate Responsibility: http://www.conferenceboard.ca/GCSR/research/default.htm

If there is an awareness of a need for social responsibility in business in Canada, and such awareness exists or is created in government than i think one can assume there is influence of government in the business world, and with saying this, the existence of governmental influence in a positive light, could also lead one to believe the existence of governmental influence in a negative light.

If major corporations using Canadian resources to sell armament to a country that is waging a war that we did not support (although the government in reality does!) then it is the responsibility of government to represent the peoples of Canada’s opinion, and feelings on said corporations impact on social systems and theology.

The fact that this has not been the case often is not because of governments inability to intervene into the pulse of business, rather it is not in the best interests of their agenda. An agenda that oppresses specific groups and does not represent by and large the poor/working classes/aboriginals/visible minorities in Canada.

[SEAN!]

Originally Posted by fable

I dont believe this at all. I think it has been proven time and time again in Canadian history either "on the record" or off that there has ALWAYS been strong ties with government and corporate bodies. The relationship has become inherent when defining the political landscape at home and abroad. Businesses need to profit and expand, and realistically after a certain point of growth, on top of R+D, marketing, strategizing, conceptualizing, team building, technology chasing and self assessment, the only viable directions to take are through aid, support and manipulation of governments. I dont really know how one could believe otherwise without completely ignoring the nature of our government and large businesses?

The treasury board of Canada identifies with the idea of corporation when communicating their own identity:

http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/fip-pcim/man_1_0_e.asp

And this is just at the ideological stage. How do specific businesses go about acquiring contracts? Simply because of their business plan? Education contracts, Civil contracts , communication contracts, defense contracts, security contracts. Where is there a facet of government and NOT private business? So with understanding this, do you truly believe that there are no personal bonds, no "behind the scenes bargaining" no "back scratching?"

The Conference board of Canada, in a section revolving around corporate opportunities in and out of the context of national policies, mentioned "Global pressures are forcing corporations to think differently about their societal impact." in the summary in one of their studies/reports. http://www.conferenceboard.ca/GCSR/research/default.htm

Even admitting such an phenomenon would lead one to assume that if their are corporations and businesses that are aware and sensitive to such global pressures, then there would be others that arent or do not care? And in the realm of "global societal issues" isnt governance a primary focus?

Heres yet another government site focussed on Social Corporate Responsibility: http://www.conferenceboard.ca/GCSR/research/default.htm

If there is an awareness of a need for social responsibility in business in Canada, and such awareness exists or is created in government than i think one can assume there is influence of government in the business world, and with saying this, the existence of governmental influence in a positive light, could also lead one to believe the existence of governmental influence in a negative light.

If major corporations using Canadian resources to sell armament to a country that is waging a war that we did not support (although the government in reality does!) then it is the responsibility of government to represent the peoples of Canada’s opinion, and feelings on said corporations impact on social systems and theology.

The fact that this has not been the case often is not because of governments inability to intervene into the pulse of business, rather it is not in the best interests of their agenda. An agenda that oppresses specific groups and does not represent by and large the poor/working classes/aboriginals/visible minorities in Canada.

ive worked for a corporation in management and have bid and worked on government contracts. have you ever worked in a corporate position?

those are not examples of influence of government on business its more appropraitely described as an acknowledgement of what the corporate powers that be have already realized. the idea of corporate responsibilty is great for P.R marketing and recruiting. just look at the lengths nike has gone to to stress their ethical standards because its good for their bottom line and good for expanding into different markets.

as for snc tec, its not using canadian resources its using its own, the government does not own snc tec therefore it should have no say in its operations other then compliance to labour legal and environment regulations, and besides not all canadians oppose the war in iraq. alot of canadians oppose your activism how would you like it if the government stepped in and told you that you couldnt use 'canadian' resources to do what you are doing right now? because that is exactly what you are advocating, it just makes it easier for you to justify since its clear that you have an anti-corporate stance.
all these links you bring up are extremely tenous at best, and entirely irrelavent and false at worst.

how does the agenda of big business actively oppress the poor? if they do anything its benign neglect.

but its okay, you can pull the wool over your eyes and keep preaching your althussar/marx/bourdeau inspired marxist philosphy despite the large body of evidence which contradicts much of it.

[fable]

but its okay, you can pull the wool over your eyes and keep preaching your althussar/marx/bourdeau inspired marxist philosphy despite the large body of evidence which contradicts much of it.

You had me for awhile sean! some good arguments, and definite relevant observations, but you dropped the ball on the last post. A tad more accusatory towards my own position of "activism" and "anti-corporation". You dont know my history nor what i have been involved with in the past. The arguments in your last post assumed a few points:

a) because i am an activist, i have certain leanings, and biases

-completely correct! But you cant use this as relevent or applicable becuase you are involved in corporate canada, and have YOUR biases too, and thus trying to use as a point, gets thrown out the window when debating on a intellectual level. (In the real world all bets are off, respectively)

b) I havent worked in a corporation, so i dont know the inner wotrkings that would legitimize corporations as ethical bodies that look out for the best interest of all members of society

-INCORRECT, although i havent worked in top coprporate positions, while in the restaurant industry for a decade i have worked at the corporate level of several chains of restaurants. What does this mean? Nothing - i still dont know what bearing it has on this debate?

Where thes proof? You hinted that my opinions are based on false assumptions or some sort of marxist rhetoric(just wanted to point out that i only started reading marx, last week!) Business is based on profit, profit ignores humanistic traits. Its overhead and bottom line. So while you are completely correct that the business has the ability to control its impact on society, does it really?

Was nikes mass marketing really an earnest progressive move or was it a reaction against a growing discontent with production practises, shareholder pressure, and a fear of falling stock value (however tiny)?

Im not sure if you brought it up, but i do admit im speaking in term of some sense of morality whether i want to admit it or not. You said that many citizens may support the war in Iraq, and I completely agree. And for the sake of my own sanity i wont argue against this reality, rather im arguiing against the "morality" (i guess im resigned to use that word, as its the only one that fits right now) of Canadian businesses or "global businesses" with offices here making a profit off political decisions supporting WAR, a war that has been denounced since the very beggining, a war that allowes many Canadians to feel comfortable by the fact that its being perpetuated by the "evil americans!" while we are innocent? So as long as our government doesnt publically support, companies can make all the millions they want?

SNC doesnt use canadian resources? I wasnt aware of that? So do they export import materials into the country, make the bullets and then export them? So realistically theyre only contribution to our economy is through jobs? So its okay?

how does the agenda of big business actively oppress the poor? if they do anything its benign neglect.

Is there big business in education? In health care? In pharmacutecicals? Im pretty sure last time i check outside my window and the stats that so many economists take to bed with them, that all of these sectors have massive issues revolving around adminestering said services to the poor? Why? Because of profit? Becuase thats the way of life? Make a buck, and fuck everyone else? And then turn around, sing the canadian anthem and think we are true proud Canadians? Becuase we buy shit, and make money? Harsh man, that a really grim, bleak ideology isnt it?

If the government can get into mediation/ negotiations, and oppress labour unions, then why wouldnt they be able to get involved with SNC?

If the government can set a monopoly for big bussinesses to bid on large, contracts why cant they get involved with the SNC?

If we are making a move to privatizing everything in this world, wouldnt it be in the best interests for government to make sure they hold some concession with said companies, other wise loose all power and legitimacy of rule, to CEO's? So with saying that why couldnt they get involved in SNC?

Of course they could, But the bottom line seems that i could pass every stat to you in the universe and we wouldnt see eye to eye. Why? Becuase your "big business" and im a "dirty hippy?" No, its becuase you KNOW its in the best interest of government not to get involved and stop SNC, because where will all the cuts backs come from?

You think that YOUR the realist and im the idealist becuase YOUR "playing the game?" That becuase you understand that to be succesful in this life, if you have to worry about the bottomline of your company, so your own personal bottom line has the chance bump its head on the capitalist roof?(captilaist ROOF!? thats ironic!) From where i stand, you indeed maybe succesful, and i wouldnt wish anything less for you, but dont the mistake of confusing playing the game with getting played by the game
Dont make this personal anymore sean! Dont apply labels on me, and i wont do the same to you, Your a smart mutherfucker, and i appreciate your prose greatly. But im sitting at this computer literally with blood running down my chin from bitting my tongue so hard from keeping calm + I HAVE So lets keep it civil man. Or we stop, its no matter, but keep it above the belt please.


peace+respect
shakeel

[fable]

i cant edit my post for some reason, so replace "cut backs" with "kick backs"

[BongMan]

Ho hum deffinatly stopped reading after the first paragraph.. I love how you always to take the holier then though attitude towards others here, I may be an asshole with a big mouth but hell atleast I admit it.