Human consciousness.

[tiedye]

Taken from John Zerzan's paper, "Language: Origin and Meaning."

To Levy-Bruhl, Durkheim and others, the cardinal and qualitative difference between the "primitive mind" and ours is the primitive's lack of detachment in the moment of experience; "the savage mind totalizes," as Levi-Strauss put it. Of course we have long been instructed that this original unity was destined to crumble, that alienation is the province of being human: consciousness depends on it.
In much the same sense that objectified time has been held to be essential to consciousness--Hegel called it "the necessary alienation"--so has language, and equally falsely. Language may be properly considered the fundamental ideology, perhaps as deep a separation from the natural world as self-existent time. And if timelessness resolves the split between spontaneity and consciousness, languagelessness may be equally necessary.

I've never looked at it this way... basically, I've spent the morning in contemplation over one sentence in this article:

'...alienation is the province of being human: human consciousness depends on it.'

I'm still mulling this over in my head and could use another perspective on this.

Anybody?

[Silverwinged]

the keg is coming.

that is all.

[tiedye]

Thanks, lady. I fail at mornings.

[azazel]

stop reading this bullshit and read the bible more.

[SEAN!]

Originally Posted by azazel

stop reading this bullshit and read the bible more.

hah what?

[tiedye]

I will not bite that hook, wummy.

[ebbomega]

Originally Posted by azazel

stop reading this bullshit and read the bible more.

YEAH BECAUSE HUMAN SOCIETY HAD EVERYTHING FIGURED OUT 2000 YEARS AGO AND THERE'S NO NEED TO EXPLORE IT FURTHER. *rolleyes*

Human consciousness is simply pattern recognition. You recognize these impulses to your brain as a pattern that you've seen before. Where we learn stuff is when we find things that are incongruous with your previous experiences. Alienation is simply a a strong feeling of incongruity. Just means you really don't recognize what's going on - the patterns are alien to you.

[cubed]

^This is what we refer to as being "TROLL'D".

[ebbomega]

I bite at trolls consistently. You know this about me.

[cubed]

It doesn't make it right.

[decypher]

Originally Posted by tiedye

Taken from John Zerzan's paper, "Language: Origin and Meaning."


I've never looked at it this way... basically, I've spent the morning in contemplation over one sentence in this article:

'...alienation is the province of being human: human consciousness depends on it.'

I'm still mulling this over in my head and could use another perspective on this.

Anybody?

There are tonnes of conceptions for the word alienation. There's the "false consciousness" concept and the "inverted consciousness" of Marx. These deal with questions about why some people act against their own desires or interests and whether they arrive at this state through a cognitive empiricism or systemic/material process.

This was just a quick glance but lukacs discusses the ideas of Hegels 'necessary alienation:'


Lukacs "While Hegel sees alienation as a necessary aspect of objectification, Marx maintains that alienation does not reside immanently in the process of production itself, but only in its concrete historical conditions. For Marx therefore, there exists the possibility of ultimate salvation, whereas for Hegel one will never be able to dissociate the cross from the rose of the present."

So for Hegel alienation is "externalized" through the processes used to create materials and how this objectification reflects in the social institutions which follow material production. This sums it up a bit:

"Hegel's conviction that the world of economics which dominates man and which utterly controls the life of the individual is nevertheless the product of man himself, even if it has this dead, alien character.

For Hegel, then, the everyday world in which persons live consists, at one and the same time, of objects which are necessary to, and express human life, but from which they are alienated; and which, in both cases, are the products of people's activity, without which neither objects nor persons would be. For Hegel, alienation is the inescapable fate of humanity and its object world. Alienation is thus inherent in human life which necessarily and everywhere creates the social world by making and using objects, while making and transforming itself in that very process. At some point, however, these objects no longer coincide with human purposes, the object world and the inner world are no longer in gear, and men cease to recognize the object world as having been brought into existence by their own human activity."

To go further down this perspective would lead to Baudrillard et al who talk about a completely hyperrealistic society of signs.

[djmarkpaul]

Originally Posted by tiedye

Taken from John Zerzan's paper, "Language: Origin and Meaning."


'...alienation is the province of being human: human consciousness depends on it.'

Anybody?

The rise of specialization and division of labour depends on alienation, it has a purpose and has brought us this far. However continuation at this point of human society risks the certainty of further global conflicts (be it nationalistic or religious fanaticism), and environmental degradation.

Time to move on or die off it seems.

Oh and also in spirit of the title, the Zerzan excerpt provides a reason for the necessity of the practice of meditation...and draws many interesting parallels to the practice as well.

[tiedye]

What are we losing from this though? Is it really necessary to isolate ourselves in order for individual growth to prosper? Surely we could do the same as many parts of a whole. Unity does not hinder individualism if the ideals of the latter are upheld. A solitary soul sounds like a very lonely existence to me.

Also, as you said Mark Paul, continuation of this can't be a positive thing. We're already detached from each other and the universe around us enough at it is - too much if you ask me. What happens when we sever the connection entirely?

[decypher]

I don't think they are suggesting alienation is necessary but rather inherent in the process by which institutions are built. Zerzan is relating that concept to language as this "fundamental ideology" that alienates people from a natural world i guess you could say. He suggests languagelessness is "equally needed" for a consciousness as alienation. But doesn't this suggest that there was at some time a primitive mind.


edit: Don't apes etc still communicate on a level of symbolic interaction thus showing a level of self-concept ?

That's what i would ask about his concept of language and the primitive mind. I haven't read his whole article though.

[tiedye]

I don't think I have my head entirely around this concept and it's literal meaning.

[decypher]

From quickly looking at his work it seems like he's trying to show how language is an objective structure that controls us like ideology. This makes sense considering he's a primitivist and all. He challenges all these structures of language, society etc etc etc and uses examples of "primitive consciousness" to promote his ideas. And like i said above don't all apes and such still interact on a certain level of communication.

[djmarkpaul]

The point is simple, languagelessness and alienation are both tools for society, one of primitive origin, and one of industrialized origin respectively.

The continuation of society to either merely survive or become a truly space faring civilization requires the harmonization of both, otherwise industrialized society destroys itself and we're dab smack back in the sticks and stones age, or got some Mad Max shit to deal with.

[yoko*]

Originally Posted by tiedye

I don't think I have my head entirely around this concept and it's literal meaning.

You don't need to. By the time you think you've "figured it out" you'll be asking for your time back.

To Levy-Bruhl, Durkheim and others, the cardinal and qualitative difference between the "primitive mind" and ours is the primitive's lack of detachment in the moment of experience; "the savage mind totalizes," as Levi-Strauss put it. Of course we have long been instructed that this original unity was destined to crumble, that alienation is the province of being human: consciousness depends on it.

What he is likely pointing to in that line, is the argument that human rationality/consciousness destines that we become increasingly alienated from ourselves and others.

To elaborate, many theorists (such as Marx and Elias) argue that the natural (and perhaps inevitable) development of socieities is from a more primitive, simple state where there is less economic interdependency amongst people, less of a division of labour in society and a greater presence of day-to-day violence, to a more complex society where there is an increased division of labour, highly rationalized processes, greater interdependency between people and so a need for and the institution of a monopoly of physical violence (ie- by the government such as in the form of a military/police force).

The comment about alienation likely refers back to Marx's argument that labourers (the proletariat) in highly industrialized societies feel alienated from society as a whole because they feel alientated not only from the products which they produce, but also from themselves, their colleagues, and their work.

---

But my overall feeling is that your brain will rot if you try to analyze what old farts who use words like "facile" to describe "simple", are trying to say.

:push:

[SEAN!]

Originally Posted by decypher

I don't think they are suggesting alienation is necessary but rather inherent in the process by which institutions are built. Zerzan is relating that concept to language as this "fundamental ideology" that alienates people from a natural world i guess you could say. He suggests languagelessness is "equally needed" for a consciousness as alienation. But doesn't this suggest that there was at some time a primitive mind.


edit: Don't apes etc still communicate on a level of symbolic interaction thus showing a level of self-concept ?

That's what i would ask about his concept of language and the primitive mind. I haven't read his whole article though.

werd is bond son, but these type of discussions is what really turned me off sociology, i think of science as a tool or a method, sociology and poli sci are the wrong tools to use inorder to explain something as individual as human counciousness. that of course is my opinion but you wouldn't beleive the fucked up economic theories that attempt to explain the phenomena of racial prejudice.

[SEAN!]

Originally Posted by decypher

From quickly looking at his work it seems like he's trying to show how language is an objective structure that controls us like ideology. This makes sense considering he's a primitivist and all. He challenges all these structures of language, society etc etc etc and uses examples of "primitive consciousness" to promote his ideas. And like i said above don't all apes and such still interact on a certain level of communication.

of course, its necessary for the survival of even the most basic social systems, i.e. between two people, so while i understand what he means by alienation from one's own being i think that that alienation is a trade off because wether we like it or not we are all essentially interdependant on each other.

[esoter1c]

So stoked for his new book... Amazon.com: Twilight of the Machines: John Zerzan: Books

[azazel]

Originally Posted by djmarkpaul

The rise of specialization and division of labour depends on alienation, it has a purpose and has brought us this far. However continuation at this point of human society risks the certainty of further global conflicts (be it nationalistic or religious fanaticism), and environmental degradation.

Time to move on or die off it seems.

Oh and also in spirit of the title, the Zerzan excerpt provides a reason for the necessity of the practice of meditation...and draws many interesting parallels to the practice as well.

alienation occurs anywhere outside of living in a peak experience or 'living in the moment'.

[azazel]

reclaiming the primitive mind

[tiedye]

What if we developed more complex means of communication in order to free ourselves from isolation due to a desire to connect with one another? To transfer thoughts through more definite means?

[ebbomega]

Originally Posted by tiedye

What if we developed more complex means of communication in order to free ourselves from isolation due to a desire to connect with one another? To transfer thoughts through more definite means?

It's already happened using electrons.