May 10, 04
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from your list primates are smarter than pigs. you say pigs should not be killed because nothing should ever live to see their mom/daughter/friend/loved one suffer and or die. koko killed one of her pet kittens carelessly. if koko is intelligent and cogniscent of life and death, should koko not be bound by the moral code you hold humans to? koko theoreticly 'loved' that kitten very very much, and yet she still killed it, what does that say about relationships in the animal world? how are you even getting to a conclusion that animals can form bonds of love and trust with one another? why doesn't peta put up 'koko is a killer' billboards? if koko is aware of pain and suffering then why would she inflict it on someone she loves? do you think pigs living on a farm have full realization of themselves? i would wager that when pig x dies on a farm, every other pig has no idea what the fuck went on. i would also wager that pigs on a farm have no concept of death anyways to draw from. 
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May 11, 04
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“okay lets run with this.”
”:from your list primates are smarter than pigs. you say pigs should not be killed because nothing should ever live to see their mom/daughter/friend/loved one suffer and or die.” ~~~ Actually I was making a comparison to the Peta ads and how people are reacting to it in a bias and silly manner, I’m sorry if you had gotten lost in the sarcasm. I believe in the reduction of suffering and has little influence of family or not, if something can feel pain emotionally or physically and there are alternatives to use, I think we should use them ~~~ ”koko killed one of her pet kittens carelessly. if koko is intelligent and cogniscent of life and death, should koko not be bound by the moral code you hold humans to? koko theoreticly 'loved' that kitten very very much, and yet she still killed it, what does that say about relationships in the animal world? how are you even getting to a conclusion that animals can form bonds of love and trust with one another? why doesn't peta put up 'koko is a killer' billboards? if koko is aware of pain and suffering then why would she inflict it on someone she loves?” Are you saying that humans don’t kill other humans carelessly? Even when they care or even love them? (I didn’t know she killed a kitten do you have the link?). I think it’s hard to treat animals according to human laws when we can’t even treat them to humane laws. I think we already hold animals into certain laws of ours, yet they don’t get to be involved in the decision making process. I also think there are enough groups doing that so Peta does need to, ask the poachers. ”do you think pigs living on a farm have full realization of themselves? i would wager that when pig x dies on a farm, every other pig has no idea what the fuck went on. i would also wager that pigs on a farm have no concept of death anyways to draw from.” ~~~ Living in a herd of humans I’ve come under the impression that a great deal haven’t come to full realization of themselves. I take you you’ve never been on a farm to witness livestock getting killed? From what I know the farmers rope the animals they’re going to kill and take the rest away so they can’t see what going on because it causes mass panic. ~~~
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May 11, 04
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“^ so then basically your saying all people should be vegitarians?
no. and i really hope that no one takes away my freedom of choice when it comes to what i eat.” ~~~ Exactly!!! That’s why we should all be able to own slaves!!! It’s our choice man! ~~~ ”i never said i didnt agree with vegitarianism, im just not one. so i dont want to be preached to about how terrible i am for eating a poor little cow. just like how i dont want to be preached to about how i will burn in hell if i dont pratice a certain religion, or howi wont get a job if i dont wear a certain style of clothing.” ~~~ I’m sure Hitler and Crew didn’t like being preached to about what he was doing that was causing suffering. Yet It was Hitler’s fault right? Not everyone who supported them one way or another? ~~~ ”im not going on about how people should enjoy eating meat, and im not trying to convince vegitarians that they are wrong” ~~~ That’s because we’re not wrong. ~~~ “is it wrong when the wolf eats the bunny?” ~~~ We’re not wolves and we have alternatives now, we don’t need to. Plus a wolf doesn’t set up slaughter houses to kill life in horrendous ways by the multitudes. ~~~ ”same brand of crayon, just a different color.” ~~~ More like a kid playing with crayons compared to another sniffing Jiffies Last edited by Knigel; May 11, 04 at 02:11 AM.
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May 11, 04
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v. de·bat·ed, de·bat·ing, de·bates v. intr. To consider something; deliberate. To engage in argument by discussing opposing points. To engage in a formal discussion or argument. See Synonyms at discuss. Obsolete. To fight or quarrel. I don't really see the difference between a debate and an argument. Quote:
I've actually donated blood recently and they found that my iron levels were actual quite good (the test they do a beginning to see if your blood drops in the solution went down really fast). anyways.. there are also actually plenty of vegetarian foods that are a good source of iron such as dried beans, nuts, vegetables and fruits. there are also factors that enhances the absorption of iron such as vitamin C and cooking in iron pots. just because your doctor included a lot of meat in the diet plan, does not mean there was no other alternative. please don't go telling me that a vegetarian diet is much more unhealthy than a meat-eating diet because there are lots of studies to show that they are in fact VERY healthy, IF you're smart about it. Quote:
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--Joanne :P
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May 11, 04
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for a while, I tried to convice myself that this was true. that pigs WERE lining up to be made into pork and this was their actual wish. but it was hard to swallow because if you heard those squeals, even the 4-year-old that i used to be knew they were not happy, excited squeals. anyway... yeah, they do know what's going on. --Joanne :P
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May 11, 04
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This add is great. Sure it's done out of bad taste, and look how much talk it has generated, hats off to whoever's idea it was! If anyone thinks that it was done in bad taste they sho'nuff better get to the killing floor in their neighborhood slaughter house and witness the sheer joy on all the livestock whose number's up.
Meat tastes good, I'll be damned if I ever stop eating it, but let's not shit each other, societies' apathy towards the suffering felt for all these creatures (that have been reduced to commodity) shows how primitive we are as a species, even still. It's ironic, people talk about how advanced human kind is like it's something to be proud of. Well it just so happens that not only are we the ones who have the most understanding on how this planet works, we're also the only ones to seem to have the power to destroy a natural equilibrium with it aswell. So go on, sanctify the ego trip, you're doing it anyways.
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May 11, 04
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this was before knigel pulled out the 'omg i was jk about that kekeke lolol' schtick. if were really comparing the suffering of a pig to the suffering of a murder victim + suffering of murder victims acquaintences then i think that's completely goofy. as for koko, he should either go to jail or be elected gorilla-president.
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May 11, 04
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at first I thought it was because you thought pigs had no sense of another fellow being killed if it was right in front of them. and I think we're on to talking about intelligence now... in which case, you could also argue that a severely mentally handicapped person may not have any concept of a great 'purpose' waiting for him. either way... it's an assumption one can make, but yet never really prove. --Joanne :P
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May 11, 04
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Didn’t the same type of thing happen as a bunch of people went to go take showers and ended up being gassed? Humans can be very much just as unaware of their impending doom. At the same time both humans and animals have shown that they actually are aware when their buddies have gone missing. My intent was actually trying to point out the goofy behaviour of getting outraged at an ad that may represent someone relating to a media circus and might be insensitive to someone they’ve never met before instead of looking into the larger picture. I took the same ad to the polar extreme and you found it goofy, so you’re half way there to seeing the silliness of it all.
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May 11, 04
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that ad sucks on many levels. when i first saw it i just got the impression that it was comparing the objectification of women with the slaughtering of animals, which in itself is a pretty weak point... but after reading that article, i see that PETA's intentions are even more crude & distasteful that i'd imagined. it's this kind of imagery that turned me off of being involved with any kind of activist group, i just don't think it's the right way to get your message across. it's exploitative and vicious, i'm certain (especially after reading this thread) that it will lose them more support than they will gain. sure it creates controversy and publicity, but only in a very negative manner. The only people i can see appreciating the sentiment of this ad are those who turn to activism as an outlet for their hatred & disdain for society - which unfortunately seems to be a large chunk of the activists out there, to my eye.
i was a vegetarian for many years, for ethical reasons - not because i objected to the killing of cute cuddly animals, but because of the havoc that the meat producing industry wreaks on our environment. i don't believe that the act of breeding livestock for profit is inherently wrong, it's been done since the dawn of humanity. i do believe that a lot of the larger corporations in that industry have tossed ethics in favor of boosting the profit margin, which is kinda similar to what PETA's doing with these ads. they've chucked aside all notions of respect & sensitivity in favor of pursuing their adgenda. myself, well, after years of vegetarianism and slowly growing up & realizing the futility of my actions, i've formed my own approach to activism, which simply entails treating people with fairness & honesty in hopes that they'll follow my example and do the same. i believe that more trust amongst humans would lead to less fear, which would lead to less consumption, which would ultimately lead to a more balanced ecosystem. pretty far fetched i know, but to me that seems like a more realistic way of reaching peace & harmony than the kind of fear-mongering PETA (and so many other entities) choose to get their point across.
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May 11, 04
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i was anemic because i was very sick and also due to "female" reasons. and for the sport thing, im a coach, i realize you can be an excellent athelete while being a vegitarian. im stating how i did it through not being one. if you can state the positives of being a vegitarian then i can state the positives of being omniverous. i really dont see why you are taking such and offense to my opinion. do i not have the right to make my own choices? i too love animals, and i dont like seeing them mistreated. but i also like meat. and i eat it proudly. and iknow how it gets to my plate. and i realize that you stated that its peta's opinion and so on, but repeatedly you are using my opinion and debating it with your own. yes i see what peta is saying, and i think its sad that they cant see and understand what i am saying. who knows maybe all the vegitarians are ahead of their time and they know something we dont..... but i really really feel i have the right to my own opinion and what i put on my plate. and as to the "you dont need a cow to survive like how a man doesnt need to hit his wife to survive". these kind of comments make me sick. to be comparing battery to being omnivourous is just insanity. this whole argument is redundant. vegi's are saying that we need to treat the animals with more respect... WE ARE ANIMALS. are we going to prosicute the lion for eating the zebra? NO. we are a part of the food chain, and to quote the lion king, we are a part of the "circle of life" if you wnat to get down to it, animals attack humans too. are you going to point your finger at them too? my girlfriend worked on a pig farm in quebec for three months, she saw the entire process as sad and gross as it was, and she still choose to eat meat. and i dont think this makes her less of a caring, beautiful person. your right, this is a debate that will run in circles forever, there isnt a right or a wrong. my main point through all of this is that people should have the right of choice, and not be prosicuted or told they are murderers. i take no offence to vegitarians, so they should take no offense to me. im not harming them, im not rubbing my meat in their faces.
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May 11, 04
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You simply can't justify eating meat. I eat meat, i can't justify why, i just like the taste. Sure i feel bad about what the animals go through, and sometimes it bothers me enough to not eat meat for a couple hours. But at the end of the day i just like the taste.
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May 11, 04
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however, I can still understand much of the message that PETA is trying to send out to people. much of the arguments that I have presented as I've stated before is partly as playing devil's advocate, as everyone here seems to be bashing PETA's views on animal rights without even really hearing, let alone understanding their side of the story. Quote:
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as a human being... an animal with a CHOICE to treat other animals with respect, what part of that is so insane to you? Quote:
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and it is hard for them not to take offense to it. --Joanne :P Last edited by Joanne; May 11, 04 at 10:24 AM.
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May 11, 04
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ok, im gonna stop here but if peta felt i had the right to my own decision, they wouldnt make advertisments like the one that this post is about. they are obviously trying to change peoples ideas\thoughts. if they were just stating their opinion i think they would do it in a less dramatic way.
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May 28, 04
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May 28, 04
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goooooooo Joanne.
Once again, you've said everything I could have, and would have. Personally, I don't understand why the general poplulation thinks that it is their 'right' to raise animals in cruel environments, feed them unnatural food (ie. pigs eating other pig meat), slaughter them in mass quantities, and then feel good about sitting down to a big, bloody steak! People are always talking about being 'fair' and giving 'respect' - of course this couldn't possibly apply to all other beings in our world, just other humans. Sometimes, it makes me sick - literally. What makes me even sicker is that PETA is trying to prove a point for the sake of the animals with these ads, and humans can only be so selfish to focus on the fact that they are comparing a human to a pig. Last time I checked, we were all animals. But, once again, the point has been lost because people automatically jump at the human reference! Mugsy: maybe you aren't rubbing meat in the faces of PETA and vegetarians/vegans alike, but many, many people do. In my almost 7 years of vegetarianism, I have heard uninformed lecture after lecture about how I cannot possibly get all the nutrients I need w/out meat, I have had meat put on my plate and have been expected to eat it when they KNEW that I was a vegetarian, I have had people tell me to "just pick out the meat", etc etc, I could go on for hours here. My point is that many people do not respect my choice to be a vegetarian, and try to force their ways on me, and yet when I suggest that a vegetarian diet is just as healthy (if not healthier) than an omnivorous diet, I am called a 'tree-hugger', 'stupid hippy', etc, for only explaining my beliefs. I guess, IMO, I'd compare it to religious people forcing religion on non-religious people. It all comes down to a matter of opinion and choice, it's just that some people are so pig-headed (please excuse the pun) that they don't realize they're being the biggest hypocrites!
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May 28, 04
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At the risk of sounding like a complete cheesy nerd:
There's a song from the movie Pocahontas, Colours of the Wind. A line from that song says: "I believe that every rock and tree and creature, has a life, has a spirit, has a name." In short, respect your surroundings. I live my life this way, and IMO, too many people don't.
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May 28, 04
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^ i totally agree with your points, and i dont deny that i am unknowing in alot of the ways the meat gets to my plate, and i agree with the religion comparison... but petas doing the same thing to me as all the people have done to you.
to each their own
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May 28, 04
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May 28, 04
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^yeah, but there's a much greater respect for their prey than there is in western cutures. that said...
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May 28, 04
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I personally don't see the fear element, I see and think they were pointing out the ironic nature of society that is able to say murder is wrong but can discriminate against others with justification. I don't think it had anything to do with trying to say anyone was responsible with the murder of another human, only making the comparason that murder is murder and neither animal is nor should be meat. It's actually very simple. Compassion is for *all* Don't make me hit you all with the compassion stick until you understand.
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May 29, 04
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^they could easily send that message without exploiting murder victims... what other justification is there for using Pickton's victims' face, other than to scare people?
In the wild, animals kill other animals for food... if we're just another animal, then why can't we eat other animals as well? and yes, i know that we're the only species that mass produces meat, and we're the only species that cooks our meat before we eat it. but those issues aside - why should it be considered morally wrong for a human to eat another animal, when other carnivorous/omnivorous animals go around eating each other all the time???
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