Religion!!!

[Sniper]

Man I studied both history and religion when I was in middle/high school.......we did a whole unite on religions in grade 8 or 9...I may not be an expert and I never claimed I was.....but I know somewhat what I'm talking about....and anyways this is just what I believe and my interprtation of what I learned......I never said you had to agree with me........everyones intitled to thier own oppinion

[Psycho_Laughs]

Originally Posted by Sniper

Religion is a joke......if you look back at into history all religion has ever caused people was harm and suffering......the romans persicuted the Christians....the Nazis ersicuted the jews.....and so on.......it's happened all through history with every religion.......I say we just get rid of it before it happens again......Oh wait it already has with Bush against the Iraqis.


*covers head and prepares for assault from everyone*lol

unless a war is sent directly by God himself, war is a result of humans not following their beliefs.
one of the fundamental beliefs in both the jewish and christian faiths is "do not kill"
Christ taught to give the other cheek when struck.
in hinduism and budhism kharma makes sure that if you kill the universe will balance against you...
religion tries to set examples to follow, and most are against the use of coercive violence.
why does violence occurs? cause human beings are violent.
one person is smart and capable. people are mean, easy to manipulate, and right down nasty if given the chance and right motivation.
it has nothing to do with religion.

[Antenna_Boy]

Originally Posted by Psycho_Laughs

why does violence occurs? cause human beings are violent.
one person is smart and capable. people are mean, easy to manipulate, and right down nasty if given the chance and right motivation.
it has nothing to do with religion.

So Osama Bin Laden uses religion as an excuse to his followers that it is alright to kill people because their religious GOD says so? Bullshit. Terrorism sucks :(

[DJ Ponz]

Originally Posted by Antenna_Boy

So Osama Bin Laden uses religion as an excuse to his followers that it is alright to kill people because their religious GOD says so? Bullshit. Terrorism sucks :(

Crazed Chritians kill abortion service providers
Really pissed off Jews hunt down perpetrators of the holocost and linch them on site
Mad Sikhs murder people because someone wants to put tables and chairs in a temple

There are 6 billion people in the world, most of whom subscribe to some religion. There are bound to be some wackos who claim their evil deeds are justified in the name of their god.
But god is not the reason they're murdering people; they're the reason they're murdering people. They have objectives and goals that they can justify by bringing god into it.

That's an important distinction: murdering for god or murdering for themselves and justifying it with god.

[wum]

Originally Posted by lithe

this is getting to be such a ridiculous conversation.

wum, i'm not entirely sure you're being serious, but nevertheless... although i agree with some of your points, you're carrying them too far. religion is a human construct, a device.

if you believe that then life is nothing but an all you can eat buffet with an arbitrary time limit.

Originally Posted by lithe

when used positively, it does the things you're saying - creates an awareness of a higher purpose that leads to a higher moral and social standard. however, 'secular humanism' is not necessarily anywhere near as barbaric as what you're describing. there is an innate sense of common humanity and personal importance that is conducive to a moral standard that prevents most people from revelling in the basest of animal instincts.

Secular humanists, as previously mentioned, hold Man to be the measure of all things. If they listen to their conscience perhaps they can stay in tune with what God wants. However, to say that there is no Savior that ultimately judges, then morality becomes flimsy and shifts base into “feel good-ism.” In this case, it’s people who create their own reality, deciding what is right or wrong; Relativism as it were.

With this newfound “freedom” that they usually define as destruction of moral and social order, we come up with hoaxes like Feminism, “Sexual Revolution”, Hedonism, and pretty much a people ruled by their earthly desires.

Even when the Holy Spirit speaks to us against certain behaviors (sexual immorality), cultural spin-doctors tell us to ignore our shame and that we simply lack “self-esteem.” After all, how we “feel” is all that matters.

Originally Posted by lithe

maybe they don't call those elements of humanity "souls," but the same idea can go by many other names which fit within a secular mindset - consciousness? mind? personality? individuality? these all imply something beyond a beastly existence, but aren't typically religious either.

and the "normalization of all things obsence" and the celebration of things hitherto hidden may have gone too far in some respects, but these are in response to centuries of oppression of humanity's animal side, rather than a sudden lack of religious sentiment.

Oppression is a funny word. Self-restraint and monogamy can be called an “oppression” of sorts. The Man and Boy love association also feels “oppressed” because they can’t celebrate their pedophilia. Don't be fooled, in this sleight of hand it is only used to debase what is sacred, like love and sex.

[Rytalin]

Originally Posted by wum

Secular humanists, as previously mentioned, hold Man to be the measure of all things. If they listen to their conscience perhaps they can stay in tune with what God wants. However, to say that there is no Savior that ultimately judges, then morality becomes flimsy and shifts base into “feel good-ism.”

To say that there's no "Saviour" is merely disagreeing with Christian beliefs. I know many people who have a good set of morals and are what you would call 'secular humanists'... As well I've met many religious people who have really shitty morals. I can only conclude that morality doesn't have so much to do with religion, as it has to do with who YOU are as a person.

[lou_belle]

Get some sense, all religions aren't the same. They are all very different. You can't generalize. I used to do that before I learned about how different people grasp a somewhat different meaning from the same religion, and just flow with it. I agree that it is unfortunate that people seem to fall into the mass. But it is what sets humans apart from animals, believing that we have a purpose, we need community. We need to feel that we are here for more than just eating and procreating. Lots of people find religion to be the closest thing to an answer when contemplating their true meaning. I think that all people need to be able to talk to someone that relates to them on every level, an imaginary friend, someone that they consider to be their conscience, but we are drawn to call it god for no real reason. It's just the name people have given this "answer in the wind." It's really like asking yourself, but directing your question to the unknown.

I'm not religious, I'm Jewish, I would say I'm a free spirit. In Judaism, you can question god. You are never to be certain of anything, doubt is accepted and encouraged. I'm just learning about it right now, reading ten books on the subject. It's not really for me, although the more I read into it the more it makes me realize I can be a better person always, it's for my family that I plan to have. You never know when you might need someone elses help, and Judaism has a very supportive community. It's amazing how much it has encouraged me, the uncourageable, to give. Like today, I walked by a bum picking up a butt off the sidewalk to smoke, I had one cigarette in my purse and I thought....well.....if I was Jewish, I would give that guy 20% of my days earnings, but wtf....I'll give him my smoke and he'll be super happy. I love it, it doesn't allow me to regret giving because it isn't a choice, it's my duty, my purpose, my strength that one day could diminish and I would end up just like that guy.

I do know that there is a very powerful sense of the unknown when I've seen the future. It showed me that there is more to life than just living day by day. I am on a path that has purpose and gave me insight into the unknown. Perhaps we have a mind that is much more intelligent than we allow ourselves to be.

I get a feeling that lot's of people need a stronger community with stronger values. I think that talking about it helps lost people who have no real meaning in their life to find a focus and feel fulfilled.

[lou_belle]

Originally Posted by Rytalin

To say that there's no "Saviour" is merely disagreeing with Christian beliefs. I know many people who have a good set of morals and are what you would call 'secular humanists'... As well I've met many religious people who have really shitty morals. I can only conclude that morality doesn't have so much to do with religion, as it has to do with who YOU are as a person.

Where do these morals come from???................................. ...............





Look back to the morals of the Roman Empire, before Judaism, the first religion that taught people that being good is their purpose in life. The first religion where people were more than objects of another more powerful human. The religion that taught people that they could please "god" and appease "god" by mitsvot, and morals. It made people feel important no matter their status slave or king, they were all equal.


So I ask you again. Where do these morals that are so "good" come from?


religion.

[Antenna_Boy]

Originally Posted by DJ Ponz

Crazed Chritians kill abortion service providers
Really pissed off Jews hunt down perpetrators of the holocost and linch them on site
Mad Sikhs murder people because someone wants to put tables and chairs in a temple

There are 6 billion people in the world, most of whom subscribe to some religion. There are bound to be some wackos who claim their evil deeds are justified in the name of their god.
But god is not the reason they're murdering people; they're the reason they're murdering people. They have objectives and goals that they can justify by bringing god into it.

That's an important distinction: murdering for god or murdering for themselves and justifying it with god.

so what you are saying is get rid of god so we may not use "him" as a pawn? I killed the SOB cuz he took my apple! Oh! And god made me do it! :070: right~

[lou_belle]

Originally Posted by DJ Ponz

Crazed Chritians kill abortion service providers
Really pissed off Jews hunt down perpetrators of the holocost and linch them on site
Mad Sikhs murder people because someone wants to put tables and chairs in a temple

There are 6 billion people in the world, most of whom subscribe to some religion. There are bound to be some wackos who claim their evil deeds are justified in the name of their god.
But god is not the reason they're murdering people; they're the reason they're murdering people. They have objectives and goals that they can justify by bringing god into it.

That's an important distinction: murdering for god or murdering for themselves and justifying it with god.

Whu? How exactly do Jews hunting down holocaust murderers have anything in common with the other two? They don't condone their actions through god. I found this to be a mistake much worth pointing out. Dude, I think you just think "jews linching" is a gangster thing to say, but seriously now, use it in context;) These are victims seeking revenge. Their god tells them to do the exact opposite of revenge, forgive but not forget. ???*

The people they are killing should go to trial, but the worl think's it's a forgotten memory, not worth punishing these brutal murderers for. So, some Jews take it upon themselves to kill'em. Whatever, I would do that to anyone who killed my dad or family member. Eye for an eye.

[Prissypants]

I think to say that religious people are narrowminded is, in fact, a narrowminded statement. I know quite a few buddhists who are very openminded.

[Rytalin]

Originally Posted by lou_belle

Where do these morals come from???................................. ...............





Look back to the morals of the Roman Empire, before Judaism, the first religion that taught people that being good is their purpose in life. The first religion where people were more than objects of another more powerful human. The religion that taught people that they could please "god" and appease "god" by mitsvot, and morals. It made people feel important no matter their status slave or king, they were all equal.


So I ask you again. Where do these morals that are so "good" come from?


religion.

haha.

So why'd you even ask the question if you were already planning on answering it for me?

You are saying that without religion, we would all be running amock killing each other because we didn't know any better?

While the light side of religion does try to instill good morals in people, it is not the source of these good morals.

Humans existed before any religion. Humans who feel emotion and empathy for each other. It was kind of just common sense to not kill or steal from people. Not to say people stuck to it perfectly all the time, hell no. But it is kind of common sense that if you harm another human being, it'll come back around and bite you in the ass sooner or later.

[lou_belle]

Originally Posted by Rytalin

haha.

So why'd you even ask the question if you were already planning on answering it for me?

You are saying that without religion, we would all be running amock killing each other because we didn't know any better?

While the light side of religion does try to instill good morals in people, it is not the source of these good morals.

Humans existed before any religion. Humans who feel emotion and empathy for each other. It was kind of just common sense to not kill or steal from people. Not to say people stuck to it perfectly all the time, hell no. But it is kind of common sense that if you harm another human being, it'll come back around and bite you in the ass sooner or later.

I like repeating myself, it's a way of teaching. Through repetition, I would have thought you'd think about what you read twice, but you still think that prior to religions that we have today people actually had morals that were followed by masses. HAHA.....are you saying that you believe in the good will of human beings???? Well, good luck buddy one;P Thank god that you live in a world like you do today where people have already made that refining leap, rather than thousands of years ago. If you believed in the goodwill of human kind to keep you alive and in good humor back then, you would sadly find that way of thinking to be a sporatic fad, with no real basis in which to follow.

[DJ Ponz]

Originally Posted by lou_belle

Eye for an eye.

Evil actions are performed by individuals who then justify them in the face of god. Again, god is not the reason they're murdering people; they're the reason they're murdering people. They have objectives and goals that they can justify by bringing god into it.

Revenge or no revenge, these are human acts. In this case however, while they may not have claimed they were doing 'god's work', they were carrying out 'an eye for an eye', a teaching of the good book. An 'eye for an eye suggests murdering holocost perpetrators without trial for their part in 'the final solution' is a justifiable act in the eyes of god. In other words, they weren't murdering for god; they were murdering for themselves and justifying it with god.

[wum]

Originally Posted by Rytalin

haha.

So why'd you even ask the question if you were already planning on answering it for me?

You are saying that without religion, we would all be running amock killing each other because we didn't know any better?

While the light side of religion does try to instill good morals in people, it is not the source of these good morals.

Humans existed before any religion. Humans who feel emotion and empathy for each other. It was kind of just common sense to not kill or steal from people. Not to say people stuck to it perfectly all the time, hell no. But it is kind of common sense that if you harm another human being, it'll come back around and bite you in the ass sooner or later.

I think if you wanna test your theory that humans were around before religion or God, and you say that morality is innate, why not compare how screwed up our post-modern Western Culture is compared to what it once was?

Divorce rates anyone? Kids out of wedlock? Drug and sex abuse? Music videos on MTV? That's what happens when you forsake religion. You are just a body, and no longer a soul or a spirit, and satisfying that is your only concern. Even though you can be a good person without believing in God or religion, how strong of a basis will that be if it's mainly based on your conscience? (which isn't perfect by the way).

[(val)Liam]

I agree with luke... religion isn't the bases of morality, compassion is...

[Antenna_Boy]

^..and sex :D

[acidic_liquid]

Wasnt it Aristotle's (or was it Plato?) Natural Laws?

:p

[Psycho_Laughs]

Originally Posted by lou_belle

Whu? How exactly do Jews hunting down holocaust murderers have anything in common with the other two? They don't condone their actions through god. I found this to be a mistake much worth pointing out. Dude, I think you just think "jews linching" is a gangster thing to say, but seriously now, use it in context;) These are victims seeking revenge. Their god tells them to do the exact opposite of revenge, forgive but not forget. ???*

The people they are killing should go to trial, but the worl think's it's a forgotten memory, not worth punishing these brutal murderers for. So, some Jews take it upon themselves to kill'em. Whatever, I would do that to anyone who killed my dad or family member. Eye for an eye.

eye for an eye is actually part of jewish teaching...
thats why the whole thing with Christ saying "give the other cheek" was such a bizarre teaching at the time.

[lou_belle]

Originally Posted by DJ Ponz

Evil actions are performed by individuals who then justify them in the face of god. Again, god is not the reason they're murdering people; they're the reason they're murdering people. They have objectives and goals that they can justify by bringing god into it.

Revenge or no revenge, these are human acts. In this case however, while they may not have claimed they were doing 'god's work', they were carrying out 'an eye for an eye', a teaching of the good book. An 'eye for an eye suggests murdering holocost perpetrators without trial for their part in 'the final solution' is a justifiable act in the eyes of god. In other words, they weren't murdering for god; they were murdering for themselves and justifying it with god.

That's Jibberish! Jib....er...rish.
They don't care if they suffer like their families did. They just want their days of walking in the sun on earth to end, quickly. Why would anyone want a person who killed their family, based on Hitler's ridiculous notion, living life just like nothing happened? If anything, they should all be gassed in the same chambers. This would detur the next band of hoodlums who think they can rule the world by selective breeding.

An eye for an eye that you should take it upon your own hands to seek revenge??.....that's in the OG bible? Sorry dude, but I doubt it.

What you're saying is that these people do it for themselves and justify it. Yeah, that's usually what people do.....justify their actions. They don't use god to justify murder. What you are saying is totally WACK!

[lou_belle]

If it's in the Jewish Bible an eye for an eye.....than fuck, I'm just too damn Jewish, aren't I;P


My favorite revengeful story is that of the guy that quit crack and stole my skateboard a few months later. I fuckin' loved that skateboard.......and he fuckin' loves crack again:)

[Rytalin]

Originally Posted by lou_belle

I like repeating myself, it's a way of teaching. Through repetition, I would have thought you'd think about what you read twice, but you still think that prior to religions that we have today people actually had morals that were followed by masses. HAHA.....are you saying that you believe in the good will of human beings???? Well, good luck buddy one;P Thank god that you live in a world like you do today where people have already made that refining leap, rather than thousands of years ago. If you believed in the goodwill of human kind to keep you alive and in good humor back then, you would sadly find that way of thinking to be a sporatic fad, with no real basis in which to follow.

Repeating eh?


LOUBELLE=LOOPY BIATCH
LOUBELLE=LOOPY BIATCH
LOUBELLE=LOOPY BIATCH
LOUBELLE=LOOPY BIATCH
LOUBELLE=LOOPY BIATCH
LOUBELLE=LOOPY BIATCH
LOUBELLE=LOOPY BIATCH
LOUBELLE=LOOPY BIATCH
LOUBELLE=LOOPY BIATCH
LOUBELLE=LOOPY BIATCH
LOUBELLE=LOOPY BIATCH
LOUBELLE=LOOPY BIATCH
LOUBELLE=LOOPY BIATCH
LOUBELLE=LOOPY BIATCH

!!!

got it yet?


PS Just because YOU need religion for morals doesn't mean everyone else does.

[Rytalin]

Originally Posted by wum

I think if you wanna test your theory that humans were around before religion or God, and you say that morality is innate, why not compare how screwed up our post-modern Western Culture is compared to what it once was?

Divorce rates anyone? Kids out of wedlock? Drug and sex abuse? Music videos on MTV? That's what happens when you forsake religion. You are just a body, and no longer a soul or a spirit, and satisfying that is your only concern. Even though you can be a good person without believing in God or religion, how strong of a basis will that be if it's mainly based on your conscience? (which isn't perfect by the way).

You got a point. No one's perfect... And that includes the people who wrote the texts that we now call the bible. Sure its the word of god... everything is in a way. But I don't see how anything can be a 100% perfect text transmission from god. It's kinda like reaching the speed of light.

heh... maybe we need to make a Word of God coefficient system to rate sacred texts with..

Actually naw. Us imperfect humans would eventually just use THAT for personal gain and such too.

Anyways, Divorce has existed in various forms as long as marriage has, kids have probably been born out of wedlock for the same ammount of time, Sex has been sold for as long as money has existed, and MTV music videos? I think I'm actually with you on that... most of them are pretty fuckin lame.

Oh right.. I forgot drugs. They've been around forever too.

The only difference between now and then is that we have the technolegy to fuck ourselves up waaaay faster than we did before. Technolegy who's credit for development has been taken time and time again by Christians. I cannot count how many times I've heard Christians proclaim that Christianity is the reason our technolegy is at the level it is at today.

Thank you Christian scientists for all your work! Without you we would have no MTV Music videos and lots of kids would be so saaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad :(

[Antenna_Boy]

Originally Posted by lou_belle

If it's in the Jewish Bible an eye for an eye.....

money shot :mexitoke:

[Antenna_Boy]

Originally Posted by Rytalin

You got a point...heh... maybe we need to make a Word of God coefficient system to rate sacred texts with..
:(

Tell Bill Gates at Microsoft to create a program called "Microsoft Office Word of God 2006" or "Word Perfect - God 2006" or "God's Windows Xp Edition" hahahah :)