Dec 07, 05
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Dec 07, 05
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Please refrain from calling me an "extremist" That word could get me in a world of trouble. How does, forcing myself as well as others to look into their own past, and run in with racism, and the structural racism that is set in place in every facet of our government racist? Do i preach hate!? I hate the people and institutions that oppress and pit common person against common person, I HATE how you could see me as the enemy for bringing up, what i did, instead of realizing who the real enemy is. And who said anything about trying to fix the past? I bring up the past to use as example, the point that today, the same things go on as yesterday. In your pm to me, you mentioned you were part native, but you failed to mention what nation? Iraquois? Haida? Tahltan? Perhaps you should stop looking at me, and start looking at yourself? Because it seems like you might benefit, from spending some time with you elders? I have friends who are involved with many other Indegenous Rights movements and communities, perhaps it would do you well, to meet some indegenous youth and elders alike, that are fully entrenched in the movement for Indegenous rights. Because i fucking promise you, the indegenous men and women i have had the honour of meeting and working with, will never be able to be accused of being lazy, whinners, or disalusioned. Gimme a holler, if you ever want to come out, perhaps re-immersing yourself in the culture, might paint a different picture for you? I dont want to shred you up alex, your going to have to do that for yourself, and in the course of putting yourself back together, some truths will become apparent. I promise Last edited by fable; Dec 07, 05 at 05:19 PM.
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Dec 07, 05
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Take me up on my offer Alex, you wont regret it! Just come out, and have a listen to what others are speaking, and feeling on. Im not the most elequent of people, so sometimes that gets in the way of what im trying to get across, but there are others i know well, that dont have this problem. Metis, Che-em, Taltan, Haida, ive talked to some seriouslly amazing people, who have in the fight since before i was even born. Truly inspirational people!. :)
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Dec 07, 05
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ASSERTION-Something declared or stated positively, often with no support or attempt at proof.
you confidently declared me a racist and a biggot, with no proof whatsoever. How was my wording incorrect? fable, every time you respond, you completely and utterly ignore my main point. It is just as racist to give the people of native background preferential treatment today, as it is to oppress someone else for their colour of skin, or back ground. The only way we can effectively end racism is by breaking down race barriers, and letting the past be the past. Natives alive today... it was not their land that was stolen, it was theri ancestor's. as long as they are tryignt o reclaim something that was NEVER theirs, from people who NEVER stole it form them, tehri will always be problems. fable, as a socialist I would think that you of all people would understand the problem in dealing with things in a hereditary manner. Nothing is OWED to the natives. The only way we can end this dispute is by taking away everything they have, above and beyond what the average citizen has. fable, like I said before, the past is the past. If you are infatuated with it, and obsessed with how you were wronged, or others were wronged decades, centuries, or even a few years ago-you will never progress in the future. I know this from a personal stand point. My grand monther was a wealthy woman, over a million dollars in her accounts, and more in property/assets. She died when I was 15, left everything to her husband of 23 years, with the wishes when he passed away it would be left to my father, his sister, and their children(myself, my sister and my cousin). Only 10months after my grandmother died, her widowed husband re-married, and wrote our entire family out of the will. What did this mean to me? My University fund no longer existed, which influenced my decision to ste up my own bussiness, and not attend university. If I was focused on the past, I would be obsessed with how I was 'wronged', however I am not. What's done is done, the only way I can succeed is by going on with my life, and making the best out of my circumstances. The natives today were not even wronged, their ancestors were. They need to stop bitching and complaining, and get on with theri lives, as do you. drop me a PM if you'd like, or add me to msn-atarnava@hotmail.com you are a smart guy, just misguided. You're fighting some good fights, however, are also fighting for some things that will only perpetuate cycles of racism, and cause more tension.
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Dec 07, 05
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Dec 07, 05
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I do understand your main point, except that i look at it completely in a differenct perspective. I dont see the current struggle as one where indegenous peoples are fighting for what they are owed, they are fighting for their right to be a sovereign fucking nation. This movement isnt being defeated by the likes of outright governmental action, but embedded policy, propaganda, and turning the genral populace onto eachother. YOU ignored my major point/s that oppression of Indegenous Peoples still happen TODAY. There is no middle ground mate. Not right now anyways, becuase the way i see it, your either opressing someone, or getting oppressed. If we admit there are racist/prejudicial policy in government, and we admit there are racist prejudicial individuals in government and in the authoratative bodies, then do you honestly believe that treading the polite, on the fence, middle ground will achive anything? Its balance, and its not in our favour, and countering one extreme with the middle ground, does nothing. If you accept that we live in a society, where rights are determined by right of power, or conquest (a la "the natives lost, get over it) then you denounce the principles of "democracy" and self determination (THIS BEING THE PRIMARY DEMAND OF INDEGENOUS PEOPLES) and if you denounce the principles of democracy and self detrmination then you are racist. No ifs, and, or buts, about it. This is about the current and the future, but if you dont relate it to the past, then everything exists in a bubble, the current oppression of Indegenous Peoples then exists in a bubble, there is no relationship, and that is flat out false. The oppresive acts of today, come from the same policies as yesterday, and the days before that. Quote:
What the fuck does your grandmas story have to do with this? Is that how you debate,? What the fuck is your point? I threw out the olive branch, but as far as im concerned, you are so outta touch from your own cultural roots, that you have become blinded to who the enemy is. What do you suggest? Make everyone the same? Racial Equality HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH EVERYONE BECOMING THE SAME!, It has to do with races, accepting eachother differences, and not using those differences to oppress the other, not uniting under some false pretense of Canadas "cultural mosiac" Its bullshit, and your chowing down on it. At the core of the fight for Indegenous Rights, is the RIGHT TO SELF DETERMINATION. I dont understand how telling me that you are part native, adds anymore legitimacy, because you have obviouslly forgotten what the whole struggle about, and that doesnt make me angry, it makes me sad. Do what you have to do, but first its about mobilizing people against the government. Sit ins, singing kumbayah, and whatever the fuck else. must all have the same goal, overthrow current governmental racist policy. If you thing your actions will unite people, then im all for it, but if it blinds people to the real injustices, then your just another reactionary lost cause. Like i said before, i think it would benefit you, to really spend some times with the elders and more outspoken peoples of your nation. I think youve gotten lost along the way.
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Dec 07, 05
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perhaps your also going to tell us that the Hudsons Bay Company was a just and fair coillition of fur traders who stressed fair business with their Indegenous "neighbors?"
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Dec 07, 05
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but hey discuss away...very interesting
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Dec 07, 05
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I guess you didn't read my suggestion to you a few posts up. :(
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Dec 07, 05
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Dec 08, 05
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Holy christ fable, an independant nation for the Indegenous peoples? Who is going to support them? the Canadian tax payers, that's who! I bet you supported the rediculous play at seperation on Quebec's part, too? Do you want a repeat of israel on our own turf or something? fabloe, if we give the natives everything they want, it will really REALLY PISS OFF THE REST OF SOCIETY. What do you propose? Educate them all? Dude, not everyone thinks along your lines. Alot of what you believe is the 'right' thing to do, and propose, will cause FAR FAR FAR more problems than it will solve. Sometimes it's not about being 'fair' and giving certain groups everything they believe they deserve. It's about making decisions for the whole of society. Right now, the current situation is attempting to be a middle ground, and ends up pissing off BOTH sides. The current situation regarding the indegenous peoples is completely foolhardy on the Canadian Govt's part. I hope you realize, because I sure do, our opinions on the matter are COMPLETELY opposite. Neither of us are going to persuade the other, that is very clear.
To answer your question, the story regarding my grandmother was a personal example, of what I believe the indegenous situation to be similiar with. Rather than moving on, they are focused on how their people were wronged in the past. Until they get over it, and move on, it will ALWAYS be an issue, which it shouldn't be. Just FYI fable, I don't give two shits where I came from. I am who I am, the fact that I am part native, or part dutch, or part Ukranian, or part swedish... doesn't mean jack shit to me. I AM a CANADIAN. Canada DOES have it's own culture, our culture is a melting pot of many cultures. As long as everyone tries to hold on to their past cultures, we will never move ahead as a Nation.
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Dec 08, 05
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You know what i think? That somewhere down the line, you equated being aboriginal with struggle, prejudice and being oppressed. Why? Because thats the way the structural racism goes down here, in OUR BLESSED OH CANADA. Instead of you analyzing who is actaully behind the oppression and why, you decide to shit on your own culture - because being aboriginal meant hurt and pain and ridacule. So know we have this little boy(yes the remnants of the scared little "indjun bwoy" still seems to infect your writing) who completely denounced his heritage, and believes that by forcing a state sponsored conformity and commodification of people, no one needs to be "different" and "alone" We will all rejoice happily under our new cultures mantel of citibanks, and exxon-mobils. And along the way you joined the ranks of "middle class peace love and happyness" cats, who while they were being disallusioned by the lure of material wealth ,though there own special brand of academia would bring the world to a better place. Forsake all the history of bullshit this country was built on, pledge alliegance to a government THAT DOESNT GIVE A FUCK ABOUT YOU, and in this mass of ignorance, and apathy, you can lose yourself, and define yourself by destraction and consumerism. I knew you wanted nothing to do with your aboriginal roots, as soon as you brought up you were indegenous, (after we went back and forth for awhile) and you didnt name WHAT specific nation you were from. Do what you gotta do alex, but just answer one question, you had mentioned before, that the "natives had lost" but to who alex? Who did the native lose to, YOU? ME? or the Government? And do you believe that the government looks out for YOUR interests? Why? Because you spend money, and pay taxes? Is that what makes us "canadian" As long as your little happy bubble is okay, then you will forever base your perception of where policy in this country should go on that reality- your own safe reality!?, ONCE AGAIN RACIST! Your ideals do not actaully represent those of the masses of the world. Your only part of a small community, that is built on lies. And its the wealth and "power" of this community that keeps it afloat. But sooner or later the larger community, of different races, classes and history are goiong to rise up, and attempt to create a new landscape, where little boys like you dont need to be ashamed of who they really are, and dont have to buy into a government produced nationalism advertisment to stand free and as a "canadian" You speak of someone who sold out why? Because you prescribed to a neat and tight generic, racial existance, that HAS NO FUCKING CULTURE except capitalism. The song and dance and respect for the land that YOUR people still despertly try to hold onto escaped you, and that im sure shames your ancestors, and for some funny reason i think it shames you to. Think about this next time you look in the bro. I aint your enemy, and you aint mine, But your following a side, that only cares about you shutting up, and paying your taxes, all in a capitalist shiny happy world. Just because you cant see it, doesnt mean its not there, and just because you shit on the struggles of your own people, doesnt mean theyve given up you. The new "Canadian Culture" is mass marketed ad campaign devoid of respect and dignity. And you bought it. Enjoy.
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Dec 08, 05
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You're right. I did buy it. My only culture IS capitalism. Money and power is the driving force in my life, I am fully aware of that. I don't give two shits about my ancestors, I care about myself and my friends. This is a dog eat dog world, and I'm a pit bull. In order to effectively help anyone else, first I have to help myself; and help myself I will. I don't believe in god, I don't really care about the indegenous people, or any other minorities struggle. Also, I don't care what coolour someone's skin is, or what their back ground. I judge everyone individually. I have friends of every back ground, I hire of every background. Your definition of racist is a little different than mine. You believe me to be racist because I do not care about struggles of MINORITY GROUPS AND CULTURES. I don't hate them, or think anything of them. I don't stereo type, I simply just don't care, and don't think they deserve anythign above and beyond ANYONE else.
Some of my best friends are of higher % native background than I am. 2 of my best friends are metis, yet refuse to let the government pay for their education. They pay for it themselves, because their views are likewise to mine. I respect that. I don't respect bitching and complaining, which is what I view the natives 'struggle' as. What I've said will probably offend you. I don't care. This is who I am. This is what I believe in. The almighty dollar is possibly the least racist and discriminatory idol worshipped in society today. It is my god.
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Dec 08, 05
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Please note alex, i no way absolve indegenous peoples who do not fight in the struggle. What your friends do is admirable, and to be respected, but it is not enough, because the endevours alone only help themselves. Once again, thankyou for being honest. Your words disgust me, and asure me, that YOUR path to racial equality is one of oppurtunity, and one of selfishness, so do me a fucking favour and stop debasing other peoples honest struggles on this planet, by comparing them to the selfish agendas of yourself. Your words echoe the same words of many cowards before you, who died sad, alone, and empty. I aint your pops, and i aint your spirut guide, so really all i can say is, i hope one day you can look at yourself in the mirror and be proud, and i hope one day, you walk under the sun and moon, free of your buried hatred, and shame. gluck bro. atgonoho:nyo
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Dec 08, 05
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Sad alone and empty? My life is filled with love and friends. Like I said I help my friends out, but first I help myself. My only 'cause' is wealth, however, whenever a friend needs help, if it is within my means I assist them. I treat my friends, family, and employees better than nearly anyone I know. I also love myself more than anyone else, and when it comes down to it, will help myself before I help anyone else.
fable, let's just say come moving day, I definately wouldn't need to hire anyone. My job also gives me fulfillment. I teach my employees important life lessons, take alot of them under my wing. I may not be spiritual, or have a huge cause I fight for, but in no way am I 'empty'. You look at things too black and white, fable. That is why i call you an extremist. Your views ARE extreme. You're not dumb enough to march against the government right now, knowing you'd lose, but I'd be willing to bet my life savings, if you had an army supporting you, you would over throw the government and set things up the way you believe necessary; fortunately for me, not many others follow your line of thinking.
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Dec 08, 05
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Unless they are this weak breed of indian i see that doesn't have any respect for their own coulture... Last edited by -evil-duerr-; Dec 08, 05 at 04:04 AM.
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I AM CANADIAN...and ikinda like it:)
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Last edited by Antenna_Boy; Dec 08, 05 at 11:55 AM.
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Dec 08, 05
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it's pretty low to hold the color of a persons skin against them, when they had no decision in that regard. then again, for someone to take offence for their skin color that they weren't responsible for is unnecessary, why should we all be sorry we're different colors?
you don't see this kind of thing happening in nature... EX) brown bear won't talk to black bear because black bear isn't brown. racism is such a human thing. anyways i, being white, don't find "white trash" offensive. actually it makes me laugh.
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