Teachers Strike

[Ree Fresh]

Social Responsibility:

Occurs when a retailer acts in the best interests of society -- as well as itself. The challenge is to balance corporate citizenship with a fair level of profits.

The idea that businesses should not function amorally, but instead should contribute to the welfare of their communities.

Is a doctrine that claims that an entity whether it is state, government, corporation, organization or individual has a responsibility to society. This responsibility can be "negative," in that it is a responsibility to refrain from acting, or it can by "positive," meaning a responsibility to act.

[SEAN!]

Originally Posted by wellbelove's

I have no problem paying tax's... if it used properly. What bothers me is the goverment got a $20,000 raise a year as soon as Gordon and his party began parlament 4 years ago. However it seems some ppl are willing to let the public education slide ad be cut back each year?

Now sean I know how advicated you are in putting your own kids through private school. Or would you rather pay more in tax's and put your kids through a public school system that can meet their needs?

Anyone who graduated 2001 and later got a pretty decent education. Even then we still had a stingy education system. However once 2002 hit the education system slowly gotton so bad that the ppl who work in it can barly manage to provdie enough to meet minimal standards. Hence teachers are working harder and in harder conditions. Either give the teacehrs a raise or give them the better working conditions like they use to have or the next generation will suffer.

hopw did the education system suddenly get so shitty after 2001 when the education budget has been increased 15% since then despite falling enrolment?

p.s a public school system will never be able to meet the needs of all students by its very nature. its impossible to tailor a universally accesiable system to meet the needs and desires of everyone notice the complications and complaints regarding the health care system. any attempt to improve a publically provided and universally accesiable system to such criteria would be financially unsustainable, money dosnt grow on trees and most people do care about how much they are taxed. my main problem with the public education system is illustrated by this strike, misinformed and inept teachers who think they know what is best for children who over step the lines of their job description and end up harming the education of those who they say they are advocating for. secondly the great majority of my teachers prior to university were horrible at their jobs yet their was no way they could be fired or reprimended and their union is largely to blame for that. along with that fact is my experience of having about the same amount of academic support from profs teaching classes of 200 students as i had in public school with classes of 30 students. i beleive the complaints regarding class sizes is rather dubious and is actually a conveniant ploy used by the teachers union to gain political support for their job action. the reality is the emphasis on class sizes is a text book case of contract featherbedding as described in any industrial relations case study. the true motive of the union is likely to secure additional revenue in the form of union dues from the addition of extra and largely superflourus education staff. despite their claims to the contray unions are exactly like the corporations many in the labour movement despise, they are simply motivated by their own financial gain/economic survival.

[Ree Fresh]

Originally Posted by fable

WHUH?

Maybe I didnt understand God's first when he stated somthign about the poor well being of thos in east india... My understand why shoudnt they have jobs (im guessing refuring to the Telus strike as were loosing jobs here in Canada)

My point was that the majority of teachers now are apart of the baby boom. In the next 10-15 years we will be extreamly short of teacehrs. It doesnt help that a carreer in teaching has such a bad reputition and knowlege that they make way less money then they deserve. Heck I went through a 1.5 year college program and am nearly earning the amount a teacher does per hour!!! Only problem is I dont get as many hours as they do.

Anyways... as much as I love the job I still debate if I should spend another 4 years through uni to become a teacher and many other do too. Therefore the schools will get desperate for teacehrs and probly have to find their teachers from other countrys... ie east india.

[Ree Fresh]

Originally Posted by SEAN!

hopw did the education system suddenly get so shitty after 2001 when the education budget has been increased 15% since then despite falling enrolment?

This doesnt make sence? Where does this fact come from? Or can you tell me were is this money going too? Maybe thats the 8 million extra thats going towards private schools?

As far as I know cut backs are being made every year. In the passed 3 years the NV school board alone has lost over 13 million dollars from what their use to getting.

However why are schools still over croweded? One highschool I worked at had a 65 student on the waiting list and a familey that moved in accross the street and they couldnt fit them in.

All I see is neglect in our education system. They have already taken away programs and reduced the amount of electives students can take. I rarly see any new txt books. Yet at least 90% of them are the ones I used going way back to grade 2. That means some of the curriculum is over 15 years old!!! Besides computers and a few new chairs and school renovations... nothing has improved since I remember going to school.

[SEAN!]

Originally Posted by fable

This is about shifting the power balance, pure+simple, at this point everything else is irrelevent at present time.

Apparently you know the insides and outs of provincial governmental spending, so ill take your word for it, but I personally feel that the larger picture, the real significance of unions standing up for their demands is the principle of representation, and having a voice. One must demand his/her rights FIRST, then formulate the logistics, and budget setting, and allocation systems SECOND.

-i.e. The provincial government looks at the upcoming 2010 Olympics as not only a significant cultural event that will put our province on the world stage, but as also a significant investment into both infrastructure and economy of the province which will in turn set up a basis for sustainable programs and business well into the future. Why wouldn’t an investment into fulfilling the needs of the working class, so they can fulfill OUR NEEDS as well be any different an idea? If the economy is cyclical, and we consider something like education an essential "service" then wouldn’t it be safe to say that if we invest in the "product" of such sectors as education and health, it only benefits us in the long run?

-Why is supporting the working class in a struggle that is essentially trying to restore a specific set of rights, to an acceptable point so hard for you to support?

-Why is it not possible for the government to agree to negotiations, and come to the bargaining table?

-Do you believe that all provincial moneys have been taken into account, when the budget was formulated. I would say, that the budget surplus, by the inherent nature of the process, is a "minimum"?

This current movement is much larger in its scope and its possible chance for positive change. Bigger than a phantom 2% PST raise, bigger than "the cyclical nature of British Columbia’s economy"

-I would think that if the government was finally realized that they need to make a commitment of the working class peoples of BC, any allocation of funds to subsidize specific demands, would be seen as a demand? How much do you think that the "special prosecutor" assigned to this situation is getting paid?

I must hand it too, you obviously have researched, and understand the "realities" of such demands that the unions are making, but the "realities" of what can come about as a result of current action are much more important, its effects much more serious, you just have to lift your head out of the statistics for a second, and look out onto the horizon, because that’s where the next set of "realities" sit and wait.

-You seem to state that we are not thinking about the effects in the long run, but I think current actions are ONLY thinking about the long riun?

action+mobilization

shak

teachers arent the working class, their squarely middle class, hell teachers with master degrees(subsidized by their employers) can make up to 85k a year regardless of ability which put them in the realm of upper middle class, so dont tell me that bullshit about the working class.

[Ree Fresh]

Originally Posted by SEAN!

p.s a public school system will never be able to meet the needs of all students by its very nature. its impossible to tailor a universally accesiable system to meet the needs and desires of everyone notice the complications and complaints regarding the health care system. any attempt to improve a publically provided and universally accesiable system to such criteria would be financially unsustainable, money dosnt grow on trees and most people do care about how much they are taxed. my main problem with the public education system is illustrated by this strike, misinformed and inept teachers who think they know what is best for children who over step the lines of their job description and end up harming the education of those who they say they are advocating for. secondly the great majority of my teachers prior to university were horrible at their jobs yet their was no way they could be fired or reprimended and their union is largely to blame for that. along with that fact is my experience of having about the same amount of academic support from profs teaching classes of 200 students as i had in public school with classes of 30 students. i beleive the complaints regarding class sizes is rather dubious and is actually a conveniant ploy used by the teachers union to gain political support for their job action. the reality is the emphasis on class sizes is a text book case of contract featherbedding as described in any industrial relations case study. the true motive of the union is likely to secure additional revenue in the form of union dues from the addition of extra and largely superflourus education staff. despite their claims to the contray unions are exactly like the corporations many in the labour movement despise, they are simply motivated by their own financial gain/economic survival.

Again how do you know exactly why the teachers are striking? It bothers me agian and agian how ppl get their fact and oppions from the news.

The teachers are on strike mainly becuase they werent even given the chance to NEGOCIATE. The government pulled a legislative agreement forcing them to agree. Right now we seem to have a government who thinks he can do what ever he wants and if he doesnt get it than he will make laws to make sure he gets it ie. making the teachers an essesial service when there not even 24/7. This is why all the unions are thinking about joining to gether and having a general strike.

I over heard one teachers today saying somthing about even the UN inst very happy about what the government is doing and is pulling close to some illegal actions.

[Ree Fresh]

Originally Posted by SEAN!

teachers arent the working class, their squarely middle class, hell teachers with master degrees(subsidized by their employers) can make up to 85k a year regardless of ability which put them in the realm of upper middle class, so dont tell me that bullshit about the working class.

Isnt working class middle class? At least with the way the economy is going and with cost of living going up and not the teachers pay... they soon will be a lower middle calss :p

And yes there are SOME (very few) teachers who make 85k a year. However that took them 8 years of uni and its also a very small minimum. Now really is that fair to work that hard in uni for only 85k a year???

[fable]

teachers arent the working class, their squarely middle class, hell teachers with master degrees(subsidized by their employers) can make up to 85k a year regardless of ability which put them in the realm of upper middle class, so dont tell me that bullshit about the working class.

the "middle class" has been drifting into an oblivion for the last fucking decade!. You cant deny that. But then again, your denying everything else ourside of your "gated community" ideology. You may not notice it now, not tommorow, maybe not even a few years from now, but i garauntee your kids, are going to become well aware of the fact, that the "foundation" that daddy created their precious little lives on is one of lies, illusion, fantasy and a complete disconnection of all but a few "elitist" members of society.

Make sure you have some ultra soft two ply stocked up, becuase you just shit all over struggle.

If you don't stand for something you will fall for anything

Truth is on the side of the oppressed

"The only way we'll get freedom for ourselves is to identify ourselves with every oppressed people in the world. We are blood brothers to the people of Brazil, Venezuelan Haiti and Cuba."

[SEAN!]

Originally Posted by wellbelove's

Isnt working class middle class? At least with the way the economy is going and with cost of living going up and not the teachers pay... they soon will be a lower middle calss :p

And yes there are SOME (very few) teachers who make 85k a year. However that took them 8 years of uni and its also a very small minimum. Now really is that fair to work that hard in uni for only 85k a year???

average teacher pay in the province in 2001 was 55,100, far above the national average for everyone else which is in the mid 30k a range, and this is for a job in which you only work 8 months a year arguable in a position which is not full time even for that period. id also like to point out that the admission requirements for the faculty of education is the lowest out of all faculties at the university of british columbia.

the 2005-06 education budget is 4.07 billion
http://www.bced.gov.bc.ca/k12funding...nts-manual.pdf

the 2001 budget was 3.6 billion
http://www.bced.gov.bc.ca/k12funding...randtables.pdf


you speak of antiquated curriculum and materials in the classroom? well i dont doubt the accuracy of this anedotal evidence however i must point out that this teachers strike is about Teachers pay and the inclusion of classroom sizes in their collective bargaining agreements, not about funding for other essential elements of the k-12 education system. its just that youve been spoon fed that this strike is about all the failures in the education system, it is not, it is a selfish grab for money on the part of the teachers union, they are just fortunate enough to be able to spin this strike into somehting it is not. judging by the dramatic increases in education funding which coincide with a demographic shift that reduces the number of students in the k-12 system (in both private and public schools) these existing non wage related inadequacies likely resulkt from misallocation and incompetence on the part of the teachers and public servants who administrate the public education system.

[SEAN!]

Originally Posted by fable

the "middle class" has been drifting into an oblivion for the last fucking decade!. You cant deny that. But then again, your denying everything else ourside of your "gated community" ideology. You may not notice it now, not tommorow, maybe not even a few years from now, but i garauntee your kids, are going to become well aware of the fact, that the "foundation" that daddy created their precious little lives on is one of lies, illusion, fantasy and a complete disconnection of all but a few "elitist" members of society.

Make sure you have some ultra soft two ply stocked up, becuase you just shit all over struggle.

sure the spending power of the middle class has eroded sinc ehte sixities, and largely hasnt reflected the substaintal growth in gdp and productivity since then but alot fo that has to do with increased labour regulation taxation on personal income, corporations and most importantly investment in order to support misguided policies which you support.


its funny, you're your own worst enemy.

[fable]

perhaps? but it surely isnt perpetuated by our own actions, but rather carrying negotiations and agreeing to concessions dictated by government.

[justa~gurl]

Originally Posted by whited0ve

geez ppl with parents in cupe have no idea.

i dunno... i find that i've gotten pretty good information from my mom about this situation.. she is not an unreasonable woman
she does what is right even if it means she gets the shaft.. she always has.. she's not going to fill my head with b.s.

She's let me in on things that she isn't supposed to tell anyone..

your allowed to have your opinion obviously.. but i find your opinion to be false in some cases

[veN]

Originally Posted by ~god~

You know what's NOT fair?
god knows how many students who are missing classes for all this shit. Yes I feel for the teachers, but they never seemed to give a fuck about us (in the previous strikes). I will not sit aside thinking that the teachers are doing these strictly for the students, FOR THEY ARE NOT!

I remember missing close to a month of school, right before our finals for IB exams. Maaany AP/grade12 students get fucked over in these things.
fair?
I think not.

Don't get me wrong, I can see why the teachers might want to strike... but honestly, I don't think that it comes off as a fair trade-off for everyone. SEATING ON THE CLASS FLOOR IS BETTER THAN SITTING AT HOME!

they are playing around with students' futures here. Their final years in highschool are life-changing times. Noone should be allowed to fuck it up for them, except them.

It's NEVER a convenient time to strike. Someone will be in gr.12. Someone wil be |this close| to finishing something. It's never a good time. But, it's happening so tough. It's affecting nearly everyone in some way. No one's loss is any greater than another's

[Ree Fresh]

Originally Posted by SEAN!

average teacher pay in the province in 2001 was 55,100, far above the national average for everyone else which is in the mid 30k a range, and this is for a job in which you only work 8 months a year arguable in a position which is not full time even for that period. id also like to point out that the admission requirements for the faculty of education is the lowest out of all faculties at the university of british columbia.

the 2005-06 education budget is 4.07 billion
http://www.bced.gov.bc.ca/k12fundin...ants-manual.pdf

the 2001 budget was 3.6 billion
http://www.bced.gov.bc.ca/k12fundin...erandtables.pdf


you speak of antiquated curriculum and materials in the classroom? well i dont doubt the accuracy of this anedotal evidence however i must point out that this teachers strike is about Teachers pay and the inclusion of classroom sizes in their collective bargaining agreements, not about funding for other essential elements of the k-12 education system. its just that youve been spoon fed that this strike is about all the failures in the education system, it is not, it is a selfish grab for money on the part of the teachers union, they are just fortunate enough to be able to spin this strike into somehting it is not. judging by the dramatic increases in education funding which coincide with a demographic shift that reduces the number of students in the k-12 system (in both private and public schools) these existing non wage related inadequacies likely resulkt from misallocation and incompetence on the part of the teachers and public servants who administrate the public education system.

Sorry sean, the 2005 budget wont show up :( Again what id like to see is how much of that money was put into private vs public schools. Also this reminds me as a huge amount of funding for pay equidy to all the cupe staff has had to be dished out recently. Infact there still working on giving only 50% of it back:y:

Again the mian issue with the strike is the fact that the government is legislating contracts instead of nagociating. Sure one of the things the teacehrs are asking for is a raise... but they havnt been given anything in over 7 years! Where this money is going to iduno... because I sure dont see it. Infact I keep seeing more and more cut backs on programs and parents having to spend more money every year on fee's.

Originally Posted by SEAN!

sure the spending power of the middle class has eroded sinc ehte sixities, and largely hasnt reflected the substaintal growth in gdp and productivity since then but alot fo that has to do with increased labour regulation taxation on personal income, corporations and most importantly investment in order to support misguided policies which you support.


its funny, you're your own worst enemy.

I cant argue as I know your very well educated on how sociaty works in the big picture (which im still trying to figure out) as your taking econmics.
However what else intreegs me is how Sweeden is constintly rated as the best over all country in the world to live in... and also has some of the highest tax's in the country.


ps: how can you be so un supportive of the teachers when you say your putting you children through private school? Obviously you feel public education is not good enough for children to be tought in.

[~god~]

bahaha I was soo misunderstood about the Gandhi thing.
All I meant to say was that Gandhi's protest did not really hurt anyone in any way. The teacher strikes are really hurting many people/students. therefore, the comparisson imo is completely out of the frames.

Thought i'd say this before you guys [conclude from that post] that I killed Kennedy.

[BongMan]

I really do think the teachers are asking for much here a pay raise and smaller classes is in no way probable lower classes = more teachers needed and a higher wage = less money to higher these teachers. Also, I don't like how everyone is saying this government or Gordon Cambell is all to blaime less we forget that the So-creds and the NDP have ordered the teachers back to work in years past. It has become very obvious that the teachers union is just not one to be negotiated with. I can't wait for the fines to start being handed out.

[Ree Fresh]

I really have to ask who hear has actualy talked to the teachers about why there on strike? I dont think its fair at all to say the teacehrs are asking for too much or that the students are getting hurt in this if none of you have gone up and talked to any of the teachers. Maybe right now the kids are getting hurt, but they would be getting hurt anyways if the government continutes to be so stingy about our public education system.
Also under stand that the teachers are going to ask for more becuase they know they wont get it all... infact most teachers believe they wont even get anything out of this stirke, but its extreamly important for them to really take a stand for what they believe in. Theve had enough and there going to express that.

And of corse the NDP are going to agree with the Liberals on this. Technicly it is a law and the teachers are breaking it... however the teachers know its an unfair and un justified law. I think the teachers are making great examples that you have to really stick up for what you believe in.

[BongMan]

I have talked to a few teachers as I have a lot some friends who's parents are teachers. The NDP is jumping all over Gordo's back on this one even though the last time they were in office they did the exact same thing. But asking for lower class sizes and higher wages just isn't really feasible.

[Ree Fresh]

Originally Posted by BongMan

I have talked to a few teachers as I have a lot some friends who's parents are teachers. The NDP is jumping all over Gordo's back on this one even though the last time they were in office they did the exact same thing. But asking for lower class sizes and higher wages just isn't really feasible.

Well that depends on how much society wants to invest in its children and their education and opertunities. This city does have money, but we see it constinly being wated on things. Like the ferries, advertising, and then ppls thoughts on the oylimpics and soooo much more. One thing thats got the public teachers in such an up roar is how the government put 8 mill extra into private schools and only 1.3 mill extra into public education.

Really I think the bottom line is we dont have a proper government who knows how to work things finacialy and properly. Its either the NDP raising tax's and putting the proper funding into our helth and schools or its the so called 'Liberals' (more right winged then they should) trying to lower the debt, lower tax's and saving money with cut backs.

Overall ive seen both partys waste money and splurge in area's we dont need... especialy with themselfs.

[BongMan]

yep government sucks but personally I would rather see our debt lowered at this point and time.

[Ree Fresh]

Originally Posted by BongMan

yep government sucks but personally I would rather see our debt lowered at this point and time.

But to what extent? Im truely scared to get seriously hurt or sick becuase I know I will not get the proper care we use to have. I cant stand to watch kids fall through the cracks... the teachers, principals, social workers etc cant do what they use to or want to anymore.

One girl I worked with last spring:
A young girl in highschool who was severly sexualy and physicly abused as a child, barly fed or clothed until she was taken away from her parents at age 6. Suffers from minor mental disabilitys and probly Fetal Alcohole syndrome too. She never lasted more than 2 years in any school her entire life. Her social workers change, her teachers/councelors change, her foster parents change, and her sea's (me) constintly change... most important to her... whatever friends she can kind of make change.
Her helth is not at its best and she has a seriously problem with steeling (if you can remember me talking about this 6 months ago and no one knew what to do) You couldnt tell that she may have gone through all this if you met her.
This year she moved again to a new school, new district, new sea, new home and has 4 years left were there government will take care of her (foster parents/social workers). What happens after that? No one can stand to live with her and her familey is to corrupt and out of the picture to deal with. She doesnt have the capability and may never have the skills to find out how to get welfare or how ever else she may need to get help.
Although this girl does have some talents as shes good at cooking and very hard working. I could easly see her working in a food industry... if she had someone to keep an eye on her and understand her (but those programs have been cut)
In the real picture with cut backs and our dream to lower the budget wont help this girl when shes 19. She will be left on the street, put in jail, and probly end up like her other half sisters who are already on the street hooked on drugs and working as prostitutes.

So tell me whats more important... our ppl or our debt?

Yes our debt needs to be paid off and yes I believe our economy could do better, but I dont think the government is doing whats right in means of ballence. I dont think helth care and education should be the first to go. If Gordon Camble is soo keen on lowering this debt then how about cut backs on what him and his team make a year? The only ppl I see a lower debt helping are those in buisness... ie Gordon Camble, his firends, and other large corperations who give tons of money to suport their party.

[bungoshlung]

anyone know anything about the rumour of college/univ going on strike on fri?

[fable]

yep government sucks but personally I would rather see our debt lowered at this point and time.

HA! thats fucking RICH!

-explain to me how the national defecit effects YOU on a regular basis?

afterwards

-explain to me, that if national or provincial or hell even personal debt is a major issue, then WHY double the military budgest to 26 billion dollars? And why give tax breaks to corporations that are in the top 500 most profitable companies? These are just two examples of why its not a matter of "how much" but rather "on who?"

action+mobilization
fable

[miss.myra]

I'm getting dizzy with all these circular arguments.

[Ree Fresh]

Originally Posted by bungoshlung

anyone know anything about the rumour of college/univ going on strike on fri?

Rumor has it that the Lower Mainland will be holding its 'gernal strike' this Friday.

Anyone especialy union/work organizations are welcome, but not forced to join in.


Therefore if any union that is apart of your collage/uni decides to walk out and join the general strike... then no I guess there wouldnt or couldnt be any school that day.