Helmut Oberlander, decision upheld

[tiedye]

Oh god. We know. Consumerism is a bad thing. Are you guilty of the continued occupation of Tibet because you purchase products that say Made in China on the tag? Stop stretching.

[tiedye]

Originally Posted by Clayton.

That's true.

But if it came down to it and i had to do terrible things to save my family from slavery and torture, i would do it.

No doubt in my mind about that.

Then that's your choice. But they're still terrible things, no matter what the motive behind them is.

[Alex]

Their are many degrees of responsibility. Oberlander didn't voluntarily seek enrollment in Nazi practices nor did he actually kill anyone. He is no more responsible than Corporate Executives who go along with plans to outsource labour and set up sweat shops, or to buy diamonds from Africa.

I'm in no means saying these people should be charged, on the contrary I'm saying Oberlander shouldn't.

[tiedye]

It doesn't really matter how he wound up killing innocent lives. It's the fact that he did.

[tiedye]

And saying that he didn't kill anyone is purely speculation. The SD killed people, why would he be exempt?

[Alex]

he was a translator for the SD, his job wasn't to murder it was to translate.

Also, again 'it doesn't matter what your intentions were when you bought that diamond ring, all that matters was that people were killed to get it for you'

[Clayton.]

Originally Posted by tiedye

Then that's your choice. But they're still terrible things, no matter what the motive behind them is.

My grandfather was haunted his whole life by things he did and saw while he was a combat soldier serving in ww2. Ordinary men had no choice but to take up arms, fight, and kill to preserve our way of life.

He was a volunteer.

I hate to think what would have happened if brave men like my grandfather and his comrades weren't willing to fight and kill.
If the generation who faced that conflict refused because killing is wrong.

[tiedye]

Oh come off of it. Not all diamonds are blood diamonds. Hollywood much?

[tiedye]

Originally Posted by Clayton.

My grandfather was haunted his whole life by things he did and saw while he was a combat soldier serving in ww2. Ordinary men had no choice but to take up arms, fight, and kill to preserve our way of life.

He was a volunteer.

I hate to think what the would have happened if brave men like my grandfather and his comrades weren't willing to fight and kill.
If the generation who faced that issue refused because killing is wrong.

Yeah man. Horrible shit was done on both sides. There's a difference between a combat soldier in a platoon and a member of a death squad.

[ebbomega]

Originally Posted by Clayton.

My grandfather was haunted his whole life by things he did and saw while he was a combat soldier serving in ww2. Ordinary men had no choice but to take up arms, fight, and kill to preserve our way of life.

He was a volunteer.

I hate to think what the would have happened if brave men like my grandfather and his comrades weren't willing to fight and kill.
If the generation who faced that issue refused because killing is wrong.

Yes, bad things happen in war. Lots of traumatizing things.

But I'm still missing where in this argument war crimes are justified.

[tiedye]

Man, we're all raised to know that we have to sleep in the bed we've made; to suffer the consequences of our actions. How is this even a debate?

[Clayton.]

Originally Posted by tiedye

Yeah man. Horrible shit was done on both sides. There's a difference between a combat soldier in a platoon and a member of a death squad.

This man wasn't a member of a death squad.

He was a kid who made the decision to translate instead of being sent to a concentration camp along with his whole family.

By doing what he did he saved lives.....by not doing it it's not like any of those poor people who suffered death at the hands of the nazis would have been spared.


I just don't think this man should be treated like a war criminal.

[Clayton.]

Originally Posted by ebbomega

Yes, bad things happen in war. Lots of traumatizing things.

But I'm still missing where in this argument war crimes are justified.

Translating isn't a war crime.

[Alex]

I was making a generalization.

Also, what constitutes a war crime? How do you know what's right, and wrong? Generally a people will be convinced their actions are 'right' and 'justified'. Canadian and all Allied soldiers volunteered for WW2 to stand up against the Nazi's. We fought to preserve our way of life. We know what we've been taught. The Germans were subjected to propoganda teaching them the jews and other groups were evil, and believed they were fighting for their society, for their people.

The Russian Soldiers committing genocide in Ukraine probably believed they were acting for the 'good' of the USSR.

Terrorist Islamic Extremists believe they are fighting a religious war for the benefit of Islam.

Need I go on? How can we assume Mr. Oberlander even *KNEW* their was another option? How can we assume he knew what was going on in the rest of the world? The USSR also executed Jews and Gypsy's...

[tiedye]

His position was translator for the Sicherheitsdienst (aka the SD).. the SD were a death squad. I find it unlikely that while he was standing in front of an entire community of people translating their death sentence, he didn't once help out when the talking was over.

[tiedye]

And for the record, Charles Manson didn't actually kill anybody. He just did the talking.

[Alex]

Do you? Great, now we can establish that Tiedye's logical leaps are fact.

[tiedye]

As opposed to your assumptions? All I'm saying is that the rest of the SD were found guilty.. why should he be exempt?

[Alex]

Compare Manson to Adolph Eichmann, he didn't kill anyone either(but was the 'architect' behind the deaths)

Mr. Oberlander was a 17 year old boy who acted as a translator out of fear.

Originally Posted by tiedye

And for the record, Charles Manson didn't actually kill anybody. He just did the talking.

[Clayton.]

Originally Posted by tiedye

And for the record, Charles Manson didn't actually kill anybody. He just did the talking.

There's lots of proof Charles Manson killed people.


What proof is there that this man in question actually killed anybody other then your own speculation?.

[Alex]

He didn't voluntarily enroll. He was 'drafted' by the SD when they conquered his town and found out he spoke 3 languages.

[Clayton.]

Originally Posted by tiedye

As opposed to your assumptions? All I'm saying is that the rest of the SD were found guilty.. why should he be exempt?

Because he wasn't a member of the SD.
If anything he was a slave.

[Alex]

Apparently Tiedye believes in Guilty until proven innocent.

[ebbomega]

Originally Posted by Clayton.

There's lots of proof Charles Manson killed people.


What proof is there that this man in question actually killed anybody other then your own speculation?.

There isn't. However there does seem to be proof that he lied on his application to Canada, and that's why he's being deported. Why you guys got so caught up on the definitions of war crimes are beyond me because quite frankly it really has nothing to do with the case.

[tiedye]

I just believe in owning up for your actions (and their subsequent outcomes), regardless of what your intent was. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.