Helmut Oberlander, decision upheld

[Alex]

Honestly this decision appalls me. Yesterday the decision was upheld for Helmut Oberlander to have his Canadian citizenship stripped for 'war crimes'. Because he's now illegal(fallen out of status) his case will be 'reviewed' by Immigration Canada, and he'll in all likelihood be deported.

What is Mt. Oberlander's crime? Seeing as how it was conceited he had NO PART in Nazi war crimes, his crime was not mentioning the specific detachment he was aiding in WW2. On his application to Canada, he did acknowledge he aided the Nazi forces out of fear, but didn;t specify which unit. See:
'Judge Andrew MacKay, on February 28, 2000 reported his findings: He concluded that there is absolutely no evidence that Mr. Oberlander was either, directly or indirectly, involved in committing any war crimes or any crimes against humanity. However he might have obtained his entry into Canada in 1954 by not telling the truth.'

The acts of the unit Mr. Oberlander assisted were pure evil, but can we honestly hold him accountable for that? Let's take this in to perspective.

-Mr Oberlander was 17 when the Germans invaded his town in 1941, meaning he was born ~1924(Mr Oberlander is an ethnic German who was born in a small community outside of Zaporizhia. In all likelihood he was a Mennonite, committed to non violence)

- His parents would have just suffered through the Russian invasion, probably weren't too happy about it, or very loyal to the Soviet Union(and he probably wouldn't have been either)

-He would have lived through the Holodomor. Seeing as he was in a rural community outside of Zaporizhia, he probably would have been GREATLY affected by it. Again, he probably wouldn't have had very loyal feelings towards the Soviet Union/Russians.

- The Germans invaded. Many, many, MANY reports say the towns people in the Ukraine were CHEERING and celebrating the German invasion(optimistic they'd treat them better than the Russians)

- Mr. Oberlander was fluent in German, Ukrainian, and Russian. The Germans aquired this knowledge and asked for his assistance in being a translator. Mr Oberlander likely had 2 choices

1. Agree, and betray a nation that has been repressive and commited acts of genocide on the people you co-inhabit with, to help out another psychotic nation comitting acts of genocide, but LIVE.

2. Deny, and die.

I know what I would have chosen to do, and I very much doubt many would choose differently. Now, 54 years later. Mr. Oberlander has been a model Canadian citizen. He was lived through so many atrocities, and was given the opportunity to make a life for himself in Canada. It's psychotic, uncaring, and un-undertsanding for us to strip him of his citizenship due to certain political agendas, and deport an 88 year old man back to a country he hasn't lived in for 54 years

[tiedye]

Refer to the Nuremburg Defence, please.

[Alex]

He was translating, nothing more jack ass. I know what the Nuremberg Defense is.

'Judge Andrew MacKay, on February 28, 2000 reported his findings: He concluded that there is absolutely no evidence that Mr. Oberlander was either, directly or indirectly, involved in committing any war crimes or any crimes against humanity. However he might have obtained his entry into Canada in 1954 by not telling the truth.'

[ebbomega]

We can't hold him accountable for that, but we can hold him accountable for lying on his citizenship application. And that's exactly what's happening.

[Alex]

BTW the Nuremberg Defense was deemed 'not valid against war crimes'

Mr. Orlander didn't commit any war crimes. Thanks, try again.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by ebbomega

We can't hold him accountable for that, but we can hold him accountable for lying on his citizenship application. And that's exactly what's happening.

I read today that his actual application 54 years ago made it clear he dealt/collaborated with the Nazi's out of fear, and he was still accepted. The issue here is he didn't state what unit he was reporting to. Revoking his citizenship is nothing but pandering to the pressure of the CJC.

[tiedye]

I'm not being a jackass, I'm being objective. He still aided a fascist war party.

[ebbomega]

OKAY BUT HE DID LIE ON HIS CITIZENSHIP APPLICATIONl

MAY NOT BE A WAR CRIME BUT IT IS A CRIME.

edit: addendum, howzabout a source reporting on how all he did was omit information? So far all you've given us is your own exposition and a few quotes inferring that he actually put in erroneous (not omitted) information in his application.

[Alex]

^ That's not lying, unless he was DIRECTLY ASKED WHAT UNIT HE WAS DEALING WITH AND HE LIED ABOUT IT. He claimed he helped the Nazi's out of fear, and acted as a translator. It came to light WHAT UNIT he helped decades later, and this whole fiasco began.

[tiedye]

The issue is obvious. The government feels that he did not honestly hold up his end of the bargain in his becoming a citizen so they revoked their end of the bargain.

As for the war crimes, if it wasn't in question, why is it being brought up with such emphasis?

[Alex]

Originally Posted by ebbomega

OKAY BUT HE DID LIE ON HIS CITIZENSHIP APPLICATIONl

MAY NOT BE A WAR CRIME BUT IT IS A CRIME.

edit: addendum, howzabout a source reporting on how all he did was omit information? So far all you've given us is your own exposition and a few quotes inferring that he actually put in erroneous (not omitted) information in his application.

Read the National Post, today's addition. It stated that on his application and in interviews following up he acknowledged he worked with the Nazi's as an interpreter out of fear. The issue now is the crimes the Unit he supplied the translations for comitted.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by tiedye

The issue is obvious. The government feels that he did not honestly hold up his end of the bargain in his becoming a citizen so they revoked their end of the bargain.

As for the war crimes, if it wasn't in question, why is it being brought up with such emphasis?

It was in question, he was deemed innocent. Now the government is simply going out of their way to punish this man because of the publicity the case received(letting him retain his citizenship and clearing him of all wrong doing would be oh so anti-climatic, and would bring up accustions on being soft against racism/nazi sympathetic blah blah blah), and to pander to the CJC.

[NinjaBoy]

Translator is a little misleading alex...

You should also add that he was a translator for the "SD 10A"...

[ebbomega]

Originally Posted by Alex

Read the National Post, today's addition. It stated that on his application and in interviews following up he acknowledged he worked with the Nazi's as an interpreter out of fear. The issue now is the crimes the Unit he supplied the translations for comitted.

Okay, I don't read the Post and personally try to avoid purchasing that rag whenever possible. Think you could provide a link or something? Making a bunch of claims and then telling people to go research it themselves is really weak debate.

[tiedye]

Originally Posted by Alex

Read the National Post, today's addition. It stated that on his application and in interviews following up he acknowledged he worked with the Nazi's as an interpreter out of fear. The issue now is the crimes the Unit he supplied the translations for comitted.

If the issue is now the crimes of the Unit he supplied translations for then he's a knowing accomplice. Even if he did it out of fear, he can't use that as an excuse. "I had no choice" is no different than "just following orders."

[ebbomega]

Originally Posted by Alex

^ That's not lying, unless he was DIRECTLY ASKED WHAT UNIT HE WAS DEALING WITH AND HE LIED ABOUT IT. He claimed he helped the Nazi's out of fear, and acted as a translator. It came to light WHAT UNIT he helped decades later, and this whole fiasco began.

Cool. Citation needed. A freaking quote already. Somewhere where someone says explicitly that his only foul was OMITTING information, not supplying FALSE information. Otherwise your whole argument here is underinformed at best and outright invalid at worst.

[Alex]

He was a translator, period. He was employed after his town was invaded. He honestly didn't really have a choice, other than death, and he admitted to being a translator for the Nazi's on his application to become a Canadian.

Arguing about the significance of the Unit he translated for doesn't change the facts.

[NinjaBoy]

Originally Posted by ebbomega

Okay, I don't read the Post and personally try to avoid purchasing that rag whenever possible. Think you could provide a link or something? Making a bunch of claims and then telling people to go research it themselves is really weak debate.

For anyone who is too lazy...

Helmut Oberlander started serving with the SS in 1941, and was soon transfered to the SD unit of the SS. Where he worked as a translator.

That might sound innocent enough, till you consider what the SD did (And it was only composed of about 100 people, so it's hard for him to deny that he had inolvement).

[NinjaBoy]

Originally Posted by Alex

He was a translator, period. He was employed after his town was invaded. He honestly didn't really have a choice, other than death, and he admitted to being a translator for the Nazi's on his application to become a Canadian.

He was a translator for the SD. The SD consisted of 100 people promoted up from the SS. The SD organized the gassings, and executions of entire villages before mass executions at concentration camps began. They used travelling vans to gas villages. After conentration camps got into full swing, the unit was deployed to Russia to help executing villages there.

At the nuermburg trials, documents from the SD stated that by 1942 they had executed 92 000 people.

Arguing about the significance of the Unit he translated for doesn't change the facts.

Sure it doesn't...

[Alex]

Originally Posted by ebbomega

Okay, I don't read the Post and personally try to avoid purchasing that rag whenever possible. Think you could provide a link or something? Making a bunch of claims and then telling people to go research it themselves is really weak debate.

Not subscribing to the Post's politics doesn't mean it's a rag. By that justification I'd call the G&M a rag.

I searched google for it but it was today's issue and couldn't find it. I really don't feel like filling out the form to get my free access to canada.com to look this up.

Also, if you've ever read the Post to determine it's a 'rag' then you'd know it's a VERY pro-Jewish pro-Israel paper. For them to run an article in a non-defamatory way about a man previously 'accused' of War Crimes and having been a 'Nazi Collaborator', speaks volumes.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by NinjaBoy

He was a translator for the SD. The SD consisted of 100 people promoted up from the SS. The SD organized the gassings, and executions of entire villages before mass executions at concentration camps began. They used travelling vans to gas villages. After conentration camps got into full swing, the unit was deployed to Russia to help executing villages there.

At the nuermburg trials, documents from the SD stated that by 1942 they had executed 92 000 people.




Sure it doesn't...

I know to what purpose his translations were used. I specifically didn't mention that to avoid the very sensitive emotional reaction we've all been trained in, in regards of what happened.

My point is he was cleared of any involvement, in any war crime.

'Judge Andrew MacKay, on February 28, 2000 reported his findings: He concluded that there is absolutely no evidence that Mr. Oberlander was either, directly or indirectly, involved in committing any war crimes or any crimes against humanity. However he might have obtained his entry into Canada in 1954 by not telling the truth.'

I've posted this 3x now. He wasn't involved in any war crimes, directly or indirectly. He's had his citizenship stripped for not making it clear which Unit he reported to. That is absurd, and nothing but political pandering.

[tiedye]

Originally Posted by Alex

I searched google for it but it was today's issue and couldn't find it.

National Post | Canadian News, Financial News and Opinion

Clicked on Today's Paper.

Found this: Former Nazi collaborator loses citizenship

[NinjaBoy]

Originally Posted by Alex

'Judge Andrew MacKay, on February 28, 2000 reported his findings: He concluded that there is absolutely no evidence that Mr. Oberlander was either, directly or indirectly, involved in committing any war crimes or any crimes against humanity. However he might have obtained his entry into Canada in 1954 by not telling the truth.'

I've posted this 3x now. He wasn't involved in any war crimes, directly or indirectly. He's had his citizenship stripped for not making it clear which Unit he reported to. That is absurd, and nothing but political pandering.

Source please? Because everything I've seen has indicated that he was directly involved...

I find the fact your quotes never seem to have sources very troubling...

Especially since the 2000 decision you stated was overturned in 2001... And that the judges decision was made because there was a lack of evidience that he directly killed anyone.

Don't say that you hid the unit he was in to keep us from getting emotional. You tried to hide facts to pass him off as an innocent old man.

[ebbomega]

ffs, yes he's been cleared of war crimes. But that's not why they're denying him citizenship.

Originally Posted by TFA

What is at issue here is whether a person who hid his involvement in a Nazi death squad and therefore gained the benefits of Canadian citizenship on which he launched a productive life, should be deprived of his ill-gotten citizenship,” the judge wrote in his 42-page decision.

The article makes no mention as to whether he specifically omitted information or if he outright and intentionally misled people in his application. I imagine that you'd have to read those 42 pages in order to find out.

[tiedye]

I imagine if he had have stated he was a translator for the SD, he would never have gotten citizenship in the first place.