Helmut Oberlander, decision upheld

[Alex]

The argument started out that he was already cleared of War Crimes. Ninjaboy and Tiedye seem to think that being a translator is a war crime.

My original point is that this case is politically motivated, and is nothing but a move to pander to B'nai Brith and the CJC, who want to establish that Canada is 'tough against Nazi War Criminals' and further set precedent.. which is wasted due to the fact the majority of WW2 veterans have died by now.

[cubed]

Originally Posted by Clayton.

There's lots of proof Charles Manson killed people.

Where was that proof during his trial? The reason Manson WAS charged with the murders was through the joint-responsibility rule of conspiracy; not the actual action of the murders.

What proof is there that this man in question actually killed anybody other then your own speculation?.

The crime in speculation here is that he helped facilitate said exterminations. Now ask yourself this, is it the guy who buys the bullets, the guy who holds the gun or the guy who pulls the trigger that should be held responsible?

[Alex]

So you'd choose innocent strangers, over yourself(at the time innocent) and innocent members of your own family?

Very tough choice, regardless, but I doubt many on this planet would choose strangers.

Originally Posted by tiedye

I just believe in owning up for your actions (and their subsequent outcomes), regardless of what your intent was. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

[tiedye]

Of course the case is politically motivated; citizenship and war are political matters.

[tiedye]

Originally Posted by Alex

So you'd choose innocent strangers, over yourself(at the time innocent) and innocent members of your own family?

Very tough choice, regardless, but I doubt many on this planet would choose strangers.

I can't say for sure that I wouldn't choose them over me at the time. But I'd be man enough to admit that I had blood on my hands and suffer the consequences when the time came.

[ebbomega]

I can't believe it took us 5 pages to out this as a Jewish conspiracy theory.

Still doesn't change that he broke the rules. And frankly since the only source we have on this is a vague article that makes no mention to how explicitly he actually broke the rules, nobody can really assume that they know what this case is really about.

As to where I sit on this issue, I dunno, I'd really need to read the judge's decision. But are you seriously considering that we bend our rules on citizenship application just because this guy's been around the country for so long? Particularly with something so high-profile as this?

Regardless of the intentions behind the case, the government has an obligation to follow through on its rules. This is the epitome of the concept of "justice".

[Alex]

I disagree with the motivation behind stripping his citizenship. That was the point of my thread at the beginning.

What does B'nai Brith and the CJC gain by having an 88 year old man who had to make a terrible decision to save his own life, deported? He may have complied with evil, but under the circumstances most would have done the same. Go after the big conspirators, but why waste so much time and energy drumming up charges against a pawn who was played against his will?

[tiedye]

You disagree because you are being subjective. Law is supposed to be objective.

[Alex]

ebbomegga obviously Canada *had* to strip him of his citizenship. It would set terrible precedence if they didn't.

I'm honestly more angered the fact this became so high profile. Logically I can't blame Mr. Orlander for his actions because I can;t be sure I wouldn't have done the same. I also think it's appalling an 88 year old man is going to be deported and stripped of his dignity.

It's not a Jewish 'conspiracy' they're very forthright with their intentions. I just believe the intentions, in this case, to be malicious, vengeful, and downright childish towards someone who was used as a pawn, and never an actual conspirator in the Holocaust.

[ebbomega]

WHAT? RELIGIOUS ZEALOTS HOLDING A GRUDGE?

What's this world coming to?

[Piquant]

Hey Alex,

What's your view on Laibar Singh?

[tiedye]

I. am. outraged. angry face.

[Clayton.]

Originally Posted by cubed

Where was that proof during his trial? The reason Manson WAS charged with the murders was through the joint-responsibility rule of conspiracy; not the actual action of the murders.



The crime in speculation here is that he helped facilitate said exterminations. Now ask yourself this, is it the guy who buys the bullets, the guy who holds the gun or the guy who pulls the trigger that should be held responsible?

I honestly don't know anything about Charles Manson i just assumed there was a lot of evidence from the very little i have heard about that case.

And no i don't think he should be held responsible he was no more then a slave. The Germans deported millions of civilians to work as slaves for their war effort. Are those poor people all guilty aswell?

[Alex]

I'm not going in to that in this thread.

but regardless of my own opinion on that topic he broke the law, he has to be deported...

Just like(if he did lie on his application) Mr. Oberlander has to be stripped of his Citizenship, regardless of circumstances.

Originally Posted by Piquant

Hey Alex,

What's your view on Laibar Singh?

[ebbomega]

Originally Posted by Clayton.

And no i don't think he should be held responsible he was no more then a slave. The Germans deported millions of civilians to work as slaves for their war effort. Are those poor people all guilty aswell?

If they lied on their citizen applications, then yes.

[Clayton.]

Originally Posted by ebbomega

Yes, bad things happen in war. Lots of traumatizing things.

But I'm still missing where in this argument war crimes are justified.

If this is just about lieing on an appliacation for you.....why did you make this comment?.

[fritz]

Originally Posted by Clayton.

For those of you who say you would have refused to work for the SS and have you and your whole family sent to a concentration camp or executed. It's easy for you to say that now but obviously things were a lot differant back then and you can in no way relate to what this gentleman had to go through.
I couldn't judge him for his actions like it seems some of you are.

It will be interesting to see how things turn out for him.

No comment on the thread at hand, but this is literally what my grandfather did. Refused to be a typist and got thrown in the camp.

[NinjaBoy]

Originally Posted by Alex

The argument started out that he was already cleared of War Crimes. Ninjaboy and Tiedye seem to think that being a translator is a war crime.

Which you haven't been able to source.

The only things I've found on that have been that there wasn't enough direct evidence tying him to it.

There is plenty of documentation stating he was a part of the unit, and participated in it. But at this juncture no eye witnesses.

You keep citing he was forced, but documention shows he was an actual member. This is a special group within the SS, which pulled volunteers from within the SS...

You have no proof that he didn't join as a volunteer (many many people in the Ukraine did, anti semetisim was especially high there). There is proof he participated, but not enough to be "beyond a reasonable doubt".

Even without that, he should be deported (which you argued was unfair, but have since changed your stance, so I'm not sure what your point is). He lied on his documentation about his involvment.

There is actually laws in Canada, and the US that state no member of the SD is allowed to immigrate to Canada.

You state:

What is Mt. Oberlander's crime? Seeing as how it was conceited he had NO PART in Nazi war crimes, his crime was not mentioning the specific detachment he was aiding in WW2. On his application to Canada, he did acknowledge he aided the Nazi forces out of fear, but didn;t specify which unit

But that's the reason he's being deported. He didn't state that he was a member of the specific unit that this law was created to keep out.

[Piquant]

Originally Posted by Alex

I'm not going in to that in this thread.

but regardless of my own opinion on that topic he broke the law, he has to be deported...

Just like(if he did lie on his application) Mr. Oberlander has to be stripped of his Citizenship, regardless of circumstances.

I must be missing something, I thought you felt that the decision of Mr. Oberlander was wrong? Ebbomega has pointed out several times that lying on your citizen application is reason to be deported. What exactly are you arguing about?? And what is your view with Libar Singh? I am very interested in what you have to say about that.

Also where is your link to back up your arguments?

[Alex]

Can you source that law and when it was created?

BTW I'm against him being deported from a personal stance, but realize if he did lie(if he claimed he was a translator but not for what unit, I don't call that lying...) he has to be deported, regardless of my personal or anyone else's personal views.

If it was a law in 1954 that no member working for or affiliated with the SD could enter Canada, and he claimed he was not in that group specifically, then that is misrepresentation(lying) and he has no case.

[Piquant]

Originally Posted by NinjaBoy

But that's the reason he's being deported. He didn't state that he was a member of the specific unit that this law was created to keep out.

I just want to make sure she reads this.

[Piquant]

Originally Posted by Alex

Can you source that law and when it was created?

BTW I'm against him being deported from a personal stance, but realize if he did lie(if he claimed he was a translator but not for what unit, I don't call that lying...) he has to be deported, regardless of my personal or anyone else's personal views.

If it was a law in 1954 that no member working for or affiliated with the SD could enter Canada, and he claimed he was not in that group specifically, then that is misrepresentation(lying) and he has no case.

*cough* 5 pages *cough*

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Piquant

I must be missing something, I thought you felt that the decision of Mr. Oberlander was wrong? Ebbomega has pointed out several times that lying on your citizen application is reason to be deported. What exactly are you arguing about?? And what is your view with Libar Singh? I am very interested in what you have to say about that.

Also where is your link to back up your arguments?

Regardless if I believe something to be right or wrong, or have a personal opinion, that doesn't change the law.

We live in a free society, we're all allowed to voice opinions that differ from the law. If he did indeed lie on his application(outright, not just leaving out details) he has to be stripped. I don't know that he did or didn't.

Regardless I feel the scrutiny and publicity this case was given, with the end result of the ruling; this is what I think was wrong.

[Clayton.]

I decided to read up on this man and something caught my attention.

"In January 1943, Oberlander was awarded the War Meritorious Service Cross Second Class for his service in Special Detachment 10a and cite this as indicating a willing participation in the war crimes committed by this unit."

Now i'm not sure what to think.

[Piquant]

Originally Posted by Alex

Regardless if I believe something to be right or wrong, or have a personal opinion, that doesn't change the law.

We live in a free society, we're all allowed to voice opinions that differ from the law. If he did indeed lie on his application(outright, not just leaving out details) he has to be stripped. I don't know that he did or didn't.

Regardless I feel the scrutiny and publicity this case was given, with the end result of the ruling; this is what I think was wrong.

Honey, you scare me.