PETA's new ads.

[Dead Mike]

Originally Posted by Kelster

i like meat.


i also like hunting.

but not as much as my fur bomber jacket.

lol...ok seriously, u are fuckin great.

[Knigel]

Originally Posted by Wood

^they could easily send that message without exploiting murder victims... what other justification is there for using Pickton's victims' face, other than to scare people?

There are always different ways to send messages but the goal is to do something that will grab people’s attention and be as effective as possible. It’s frustrating watching the majority of society murder and torture relying often on very ignorant attitudes. Tactics need to be used to overcome people’s apathy. Just a while ago it was socially ok to have slaves and treat them with torture until people started getting in everyone’s face about it. There were many people at that time who would use the same rhetoric as people use against PETA and other veggies. People hate having truth thrown into their face when it causes guilt. Again I don’t think it’s based on any scare tactics, I believe they are reaching out to the guilt button.

Here’s an example:

Often when I get into debates with others about veganism they will use level of awareness as some sort of reason to eat meat since it seems to some that they may be at a higher level. Yet using the same logic I will ask if it is then ok to eat babies and people with brain damage or mental retardation since they are way below the awareness level then the majority of us following the previous measure stick. Honestly many animals can fend for themselves almost instantly while it takes humans years to even walk.

This can be insulting to some, such as if you’re a parent or have someone close to you that is handicap. Yet the same logic applies and the argument is not set out to embody anything against babies or the mentally disabled but to reach a very valid point of comparison. PETA is making a point by drawing a comparison between animals and the human animal. People just get caught up between point A and point B, often because it’s easier and more convenient then actually dealing with the point. Yet at least it does make people think. This type of rejection would also be used by slave owners in the past, instead of arguing the actual issue they would argue the semantics around trying to draw into personal attacks.

Originally Posted by Wood

In the wild, animals kill other animals for food... if we're just another animal, then why can't we eat other animals as well?

You can do anything you want if the physical world allows it, yet as a human thinking animal I’m sure you try to perform actions by reason, possibly even striving to perform them to better yourself and society. All animals have their differences and abilities, I personally pride myself as an animal on my ability to think, create, and produce changes in my environment in what I perceive as an aware state of mind. I also personally see this as a responsibility as well, not only for my own self-gain and survival but all of ours. I try to do construct more then I destroy. If I am following the rules of these responsibilities I see that I should be helping creatures that need it instead of causing suffering needlessly just because I can.

Originally Posted by Wood

and yes, i know that we're the only species that mass produces meat, and we're the only species that cooks our meat before we eat it. but those issues aside - why should it be considered morally wrong for a human to eat another animal, when other carnivorous/omnivorous animals go around eating each other all the time???

One thing you left out is that human animals in our society have both the choice and the alternatives but other animals do not. Personally I try to base my life on the ethics of NEEDS vs. WANTS. I have the NEED to live as do other animals, and I also have WANTS such as eating cookies for their taste. When side by side NEEDS out weigh WANTS, so I always try to be aware when making decisions to see if it is a NEED or WANT.

Example:

A man is walking through the streets one night and is heading home to his family but then another man jumps him and starts attacking him. The attacker WANTS the other mans money because he WANTS to use it for gambling latter that night. In this situation the man with the family has a NEED to live which is being met by another mans WANT to gamble. My personal ethics indicate that the family man has the favour to defend himself even if he NEEDS to kill the other man for him to stop. This favour is not on the side of the gambler and so my personal logic would indicate that it is not acceptable for the gambler to fulfil his WANTS in the manner he had chosen.

However:

If the attacker had another mission which was to jump this man to get food money for himself and his family because they were starving to death and there were no other alternatives then things might be different. In this scenario it’s NEEDS vs. NEEDS, both men have the NEED to live so my ethical stand point would be to favour both of them equally.

So eating animals just because they taste good or are too lazy to look for alternatives is weak by my own ethical standpoint. My WANT to eat an animal does not compare to the animals NEED to live. However if I were to be in a poverty stricken country or in the woods and had to kill another animal OR human for my own survival there is a strong possibility that I would do so, unless of course I found worth in turning off my self preservation switch to sacrifice myself.

At this present time in the part of the world I live in I have the choice AND the alternatives to not cause suffering on other creatures.

[galaxie]

Originally Posted by Wood

^they could easily send that message without exploiting murder victims... what other justification is there for using Pickton's victims' face, other than to scare people?

In the wild, animals kill other animals for food... if we're just another animal, then why can't we eat other animals as well?

and yes, i know that we're the only species that mass produces meat, and we're the only species that cooks our meat before we eat it. but those issues aside - why should it be considered morally wrong for a human to eat another animal, when other carnivorous/omnivorous animals go around eating each other all the time???

How about the argument that if we were meant to eat meat we wouldn't have to cook it before eating it?

[Knigel]

Originally Posted by galaxie

How about the argument that if we were meant to eat meat we wouldn't have to cook it before eating it?

Cooking food is not even the best method in alot of circumstances, our culture cooks the nutrients out of our veggies, no wonder kids don't like them.

[Knigel]

All in all one thing I admire the human species for is our ability to learn from our mistakes and evolve. When we actually put this to the fullest potential we'll actually give reason for the other animals something to look up to.

[rawb]

Originally Posted by galaxie

How about the argument that if we were meant to eat meat we wouldn't have to cook it before eating it?

that's not an argument.

we don't have to cook meat before eating it, we just do because it tastes better, is easer to eat that way and because bacteria grows on stored meat.

if you go out and kill a gazelle you can chow right down on it in the middle of the field.

you may barf a few times because your modern stomach isn't used to eating meat right off the animal, but eventually youd be fine. man ate raw meat for millions of years,.

[*spacecase*]

the only thing this thread has done is made me hungry.

luckily, there was some ham in the fridge. mmm... ham.

and here's somethign for everyone to chew on:

HITLER WAS A VEGETARIAN

[Knigel]

Originally Posted by *spacecase*

the only thing this thread has done is made me hungry.

luckily, there was some ham in the fridge. mmm... ham.

and here's somethign for everyone to chew on:

HITLER WAS A VEGETARIAN

You are completely outrageous! You are Shocking! I feel personally insulted! I gasp in your general direction.

Good Job

[*spacecase*]

Originally Posted by Knigel

You are completely outrageous! You are Shocking! I feel personally insulted! I gasp in your general direction.

Good Job

i just thought i'd point out that Hitler was a vegetarian. so all that shit about pepole who eat meat are just as bad as Hitler is BS. Hitler didn;t eat meat. guess that means he was SUCH a BETTER PERSON than those of us who do eat meat.

[Knigel]

Originally Posted by *spacecase*

i just thought i'd point out that Hitler was a vegetarian. so all that shit about pepole who eat meat are just as bad as Hitler is BS. Hitler didn;t eat meat. guess that means he was SUCH a BETTER PERSON than those of us who do eat meat.

Yes and I would like to point out that would be a logical fallacy. Just because not killing animals is a good thing doesn't make someone a good person in general. If I give you a cookie but slap you I have performed two different actions that dictate my personality to others. Giving cookies make people happy therefor I'm always a nice person? Doesn't make too much sense does it?

*Timmy is a doctor but he beats his wife, therefor all doctors beat their wives.*


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacy

You might want to glance at Appeal to Authority amongst others.

[Knigel]

Originally Posted by rawb

lol, nazis and 'u r dumb', is that a joke?

im sorry that lip is way too weak for me. save it for the high people.

Did you notice that this comment can be used vice versa? You've decided not to take on my argument; instead you've resorted to downplaying it to a "u r dumb" joke. If I were to change the word nazi and replaced it with one of your comments that I saw as very weak, then post this comment right back to you, it would fit like a perfect little puzzle piece.

[rawb]

Originally Posted by Knigel

Did you notice that this comment can be used vice versa? You've decided not to take on my argument; instead you've resorted to downplaying it to a "u r dumb" joke. If I were to change the word nazi and replaced it with one of your comments that I saw as very weak, then post this comment right back to you, it would fit like a perfect little puzzle piece.

awesome!

[Jingles]

Originally Posted by Knigel

Did you notice that this comment can be used vice versa? You've decided not to take on my argument; instead you've resorted to downplaying it to a "u r dumb" joke. If I were to change the word nazi and replaced it with one of your comments that I saw as very weak, then post this comment right back to you, it would fit like a perfect little puzzle piece.

you're never going to win. it's a circular argument

I win because
i'm firing up the BBQ right now

we were meant to eat meat, cause we eat it
if we weren't meant to we wouldn't , like you
maybe you weren't meant to, maybe its your destiny to be one with the veggies, that's fine
if i was really 'not meant' or 'not designed' to be carnivore, i would die
but as it turns out, i eat meat and i'm still alive
i'm not meant to eat glass or metal


leave it alone, stop pretending your choice is superior

[*spacecase*]

Originally Posted by Jingles

you're never going to win. it's a circular argument

I win because
i'm firing up the BBQ right now

we were meant to eat meat, cause we eat it
if we weren't meant to we wouldn't , like you
maybe you weren't meant to, maybe its your destiny to be one with the veggies, that's fine
if i was really 'not meant' or 'not designed' to be carnivore, i would die
but as it turns out, i eat meat and i'm still alive
i'm not meant to eat glass or metal


leave it alone, stop pretending your choice is superior

i think i love you :)

[zarlon]

Originally Posted by Jingles

We are the ones drawing the connection between that girl and dead hookers - Peta has always equated eating animals with eating people

exactly

would this media uproar have happened if they had put a picture of a man there?

the reason they used female (i would think) is because of the feminine stereotype.

but whatever, y'all can think that peta is really sick and twisted just like that if you want - the ad makes a good statement in my books, and its only a hooker if you want to make that connection.

[Knigel]

Originally Posted by Jingles

you're never going to win. it's a circular argument

I win because
i'm firing up the BBQ right now

we were meant to eat meat, cause we eat it
if we weren't meant to we wouldn't , like you
maybe you weren't meant to, maybe its your destiny to be one with the veggies, that's fine
if i was really 'not meant' or 'not designed' to be carnivore, i would die
but as it turns out, i eat meat and i'm still alive
i'm not meant to eat glass or metal


leave it alone, stop pretending your choice is superior

So what you’re saying is that because something is something at one time it will forever be that something? Are you hinting that people do not learn from their mistakes and that evolution does not exist? Are you also saying that people cannot survive while doing things that are bad for them? If that were the case you would see people dying in droves in bars on their first drink. In reality Booze and other substances including meat have slower detrimental effects on the human organism. We have resilient bodies that can handle damage but it would be illogical to assume that it’s healthy just because we don’t have an instantaneous fatal reaction. There is a lot of evidence that meat and dairy is unhealthy and often this reality hits people at a later age. Remember saying that because we’ve always done something means it’s logical to continue doing so is making an appeal to tradition, which is fallacious if you don’t back it up with some very strong evidence

Life has a tendency to strive for survival, we’ve eaten meat to survive in the environments we were living in, and I’ve never disputed this. This day and age is different from then but we are continuing to learn and make use of alternatives that have a more beneficial return both for society and individually.

By the way if you want to play the logical fallacy game I’ll give you a hint to make your side a little stronger. To simply state something as a logical fallacy means nothing. The concept is to point out what is illogical in the argument and then offer a rebuttal of that fallacy. It’s foolish to simply state “You’re straw manning me!” without going directly into the argument and blasting away the fallacy with your own argument. Honestly speaking I don’t even know which one of my many arguments you think is circular. If you think one of them is illogical please let me know and I’ll see if I can clarify it for you, or set it into a straight line with solid evidence.

My arguments of choice will cease to be superior when someone actually breaks them in debate. So far I feel as if I’ve only come up against weak arguments on the side of eating meat. There are some really tough ones to debate but still haven’t run into any here yet.

[mugsy]

^buddy most people are saying that we deserve the CHOICE to eat what we want as well and not be called cold blooded murderers. most modern meat eaters do not put down vegitarians or force them into a different eating habbit, it seems that the veggiatarians are the ones telling us we dont have the freedom of choice.

<-- this picture got me in sooo much trouble at school, because it was pro-choice. do consider women murders for abortion as well?

this case should have been closed awhile ago.
its all a matter of opinion, and choice. and sadly not everyone shares the same opinion.

[Knigel]

Originally Posted by mugsy

^buddy most people are saying that we deserve the CHOICE to eat what we want as well and not be called cold blooded murderers. most modern meat eaters do not put down vegitarians or force them into a different eating habbit, it seems that the veggiatarians are the ones telling us we dont have the freedom of choice.

<-- this picture got me in sooo much trouble at school, because it was pro-choice. do consider women murders for abortion as well?

this case should have been closed awhile ago.
its all a matter of opinion, and choice. and sadly not everyone shares the same opinion.

We all have choices, we even have choices to kill each other and it happens quite a bit doesn’t it? This does not make it right and making attempts at peace seem to be very important to quite a few people. Fighting for peace is hard because there are very tight social dynamics and problems to deal with that go back a long way through history. Soldiers don’t like to be called murders when they come back from war but it’s still the truth. If you kill something you have murdered it, am I wrong here? People go to war under many different circumstances and thought patterns. There are going to be people who agree with them and people who don’t. Sometimes it’s in the majority and sometimes a minority. Choices have consequences both environmentally and socially. If people disagree with your actions you have to deal with it in some way, I’m sorry but that’s what happens when you live in a society. Also in reality veggies have to put up quite a bit with the rest of society. Veggies often get militant because of what they have to go through and what they have to put up with by making a choice. Your plea for sensitivity for meat eaters is completely strange to me. You’re comparing people who struggle to cause less suffering to people who want to kill. It’s like asking why people have a problem with the military killing people needlessly when they don’t have a problem with peace activists. One needs little justification to do while another needs a lot of justification and A LOT of propaganda. If people are continuing to kill needlessly without looking for alternatives expect people to speak up and not close the issue. Opinions can be changed; often this is through arguments and debates. One side posts the pros and cons as done the other side. So far the best one on your team is “because it tastes good”. Like instead of making pleas of sensitivity why don’t you grab some information to back yourself up. I’m calling you out, I’m saying what you’re doing is wrong and infringes on the choices of others. You’re telling me it’s a matter of choice yet you readily take away the choice to live. This isn’t your choice to make. If you want to shove your ego around and make choices for other expect myself and others to defend them like people stand up to the school yard bully picking on the defenceless.


A woman has the rights to her own body and has the right to make choices according to her own will. If she starts exploiting her fetus let me know and we’ll start a fetus liberation front ok?

If you look back you’ll see a concept of NEEDS vs. WANTS. You can make up your own examples how this relates to the female reproductive system.

[Knigel]

Any time you want to play a game with me just let me know.

It's called listing the Pros vs. Cons of our behaviour and choice then debating each one.

If you think I'm wrong with my choice point out the flaws and then I'll do the same. Which one of us do you think is going to have the most reasonable and longest list?

This gives you the chance of bringing up your best reasons to make me shut up and admit you're right. It should be easy correct? I'm sure you would have an educated opinion right?

[mugsy]

Originally Posted by Knigel

Any time you want to play a game with me just let me know.

It's called listing the Pros vs. Cons of our behaviour and choice then debating each one.

If you think I'm wrong with my choice point out the flaws and then I'll do the same. Which one of us do you think is going to have the most reasonable and longest list?

This gives you the chance of bringing up your best reasons to make me shut up and admit you're right. It should be easy correct? I'm sure you would have an educated opinion right?

when the hell did i ever say you were wrong?
i DO NOT like being told i am a murderer by anyone. it is my own choice on what i put into my body. it is my own choice on what i eat.
you are being so self centered and extremely close minded. buddy listen, WE ALL HAVE THE RIGHT TO OUR OWN FUCKING OPINIONS.
what i am saying is that opinions between different people will always be different, ideas vary, life styles vary, everything fucking varies. obviously you cant handle people having opinions different than your own, because if you did, you wouldnt respond in the ways you have.
please realize that everyone here has the right to choice\opinion. yes i am being repetitive, but you dont seem to be listening. WE ALL SEE YOUR SIDE. let us have our own side. if i was busting a big mac into your face, then yes, tell me i am squashing your ideals, but im not.
case closed.

[mugsy]

Originally Posted by Knigel

You’re telling me it’s a matter of choice yet you readily take away the choice to live. This isn’t your choice to make. If you want to shove your ego around and make choices for other expect myself and others to defend them like people stand up to the school yard bully picking on the defenceless.


A woman has the rights to her own body and has the right to make choices according to her own will. If she starts exploiting her fetus let me know and we’ll start a fetus liberation front ok?

If you look back you’ll see a concept of NEEDS vs. WANTS. You can make up your own examples how this relates to the female reproductive system.

it isnt my choice on what lives and dies eh?
im extremely pro-choice, however in your comment you say a woman has the rights to her own body.... when does a fetus become a person? only when it exits the woman? or is it when it has hands? or feet? i would say that killing a fetus is some pretty big fucking exploitation. "hey, i made you, now im going to kill you."
you support abortion? then in alot of ways you support murder.

and again to repeat myself, you are attacking everyone, and personally to me giving vegitarians a bad name. leave us meat eaters be, if you guys are so much healthier and are making the right choices then you're going to out live us anyways right? (and just to help you along, that was sarcasm)

get off your pedastal, being a vegitarian does not make you better than anyone else, and by the way, i am educated, well educated, please dont personally insult me like that.

[Knigel]

Originally Posted by mugsy

when the hell did i ever say you were wrong?
i DO NOT like being told i am a murderer by anyone. it is my own choice on what i put into my body. it is my own choice on what i eat.
you are being so self centered and extremely close minded. buddy listen, WE ALL HAVE THE RIGHT TO OUR OWN FUCKING OPINIONS.
what i am saying is that opinions between different people will always be different, ideas vary, life styles vary, everything fucking varies. obviously you cant handle people having opinions different than your own, because if you did, you wouldnt respond in the ways you have.
please realize that everyone here has the right to choice\opinion. yes i am being repetitive, but you dont seem to be listening. WE ALL SEE YOUR SIDE. let us have our own side. if i was busting a big mac into your face, then yes, tell me i am squashing your ideals, but im not.
case closed.

I think you've confused people's right to opinion and people's right to action. Eating meat is an action, not opinion. You can have your opinion and we can debate that, but I greatly disagree with your actions. I don't think killing needlessly is an ok thing to do, that’s not being closed minded, you haven’t stated any good arguments to persuade me. You are a bad debated, you make a bad case. I’ve taken time to research your arguments before you’ve actually said them to me so I could have an educated opinion. I'm sorry if your communication techniques are not viable. Don't pass the blame onto me trying to say I'm close minded. Your slippery slope logic indicates that it's ok to kill another human since people have the right to choice so people should just leave others alone and let them kill without reason, correct? Or where is the difference? I also don’t care if you like being called a murder, I don’t like it when you kill animals. I’ll stop when you stop. In my opinion I think you’re a murder so you should just be quiet because it’s my choice and you shouldn’t infringe on that according to your words.

[Knigel]

Originally Posted by mugsy

it isnt my choice on what lives and dies eh?
im extremely pro-choice, however in your comment you say a woman has the rights to her own body.... when does a fetus become a person? only when it exits the woman? or is it when it has hands? or feet? i would say that killing a fetus is some pretty big fucking exploitation. "hey, i made you, now im going to kill you."
you support abortion? then in alot of ways you support murder.

and again to repeat myself, you are attacking everyone, and personally to me giving vegitarians a bad name. leave us meat eaters be, if you guys are so much healthier and are making the right choices then you're going to out live us anyways right? (and just to help you along, that was sarcasm)

get off your pedastal, being a vegitarian does not make you better than anyone else, and by the way, i am educated, well educated, please dont personally insult me like that.

“it isnt my choice on what lives and dies eh?”

You have the choice to do whatever you want, but if you take away someone else’s choice of life then how can you be so one sided and expect the same right’s for yourself? You want to have the choice to live your life the way you want, but you’re not willing to respect others choice as well? Doesn’t that seem self-centred and extremely selfish?

Abortion and Animal rights are two very different topics, yes they are both based on life but you are jumping topics before finishing the last. You’re avoiding the issues by bringing up another controversial topic. In my own opinion on abortion I understand that I personally can’t make the choice for any female on this issue, all I can do is talk to them and find out if they think if the decision is based on NEEDS or WANTS. Exactly the same way I deal with Animal issues as well.

Just a note: Calling on a bandwagon in debates doesn’t work with me, you talk for yourself and not others, if they want to speak up they can. I keep with the topics at hand the rest is irrelevant.

P.S. If you ever want to do some reading to actually have an educated opinion just let me know and I’ll toss you some. The best way to debate is by knowing the other side well.

[*spacecase*]

Originally Posted by Knigel

I also don’t care if you like being called a murder, I don’t like it when you kill animals. I’ll stop when you stop. In my opinion I think you’re a murder so you should just be quiet because it’s my choice and you shouldn’t infringe on that according to your words.

i understand you believe eating meat is murder.

"i don't like it when you kill animals". alrighty. i understand that, through the act of buying and consuming meat, animals (who were DOMESTICATED for the purpose of being dinner) die. but the fact is, even if 50% of the population were vegetarian, animals would STILL get slaughtered for the rest of the population to consume. it's going to take a lot of convincing to get people to stop eating meat. i don't think your arguments have convinced anyone.

people like you are the reason i don;t respect some vegetarians/vegans. they argue and argue and argue... without any positive conseqence.
no one appreciates being preached at. it gets tiresome. and no one listens after awhile. the comments made here remind me of a religious fanatic.

lets put is this way: i like christian people. as long as they aren;t thumping the bible in my face and telling me i am a sinner who is going to hell unless i find jesus. (some of my closest friends are christians - they don;t flaunt it tho) i don;t appreciate people shoving their beliefs in my face. its not to say their beliefs are wrong, i just don't share the same beliefs as they do. no matter how much they preach to me that i need to convert, i won;t.

its the same with vegetarians/vegans (the militant sort). thats FINE if you don;t want to eat meat. but don;t keep preaching at me that my lifestyle is wrong. all the preaching in the world won;t make me convert to a vegetarian. i'm happy for those that take the moral high ground and refuse to eat the flesh of another creature. good for them. but for the love of god, don;t preach about it!!!!

if i ever decided to stop eating meat, it would be my own personal deciscion that had nothign to do with how anyone else felt. i wouldn;t stop eating meat simply because someone kept preaching to me about how horrible it was.

and don;t rip me a new asshole over this. (its 3.30 in the morning. if this post didnt make sense, its cuz i'm half asleep)

CAN:T EVERYONE AGREE TO DISAGREE!?!??!!??!!


ps: goodnight.

[mugsy]

its my opinion that you are extremely stubborn.
its my opinion that i think vegitarians\vegitarianism is fine.
its my chocie of life that i am not a vegitarian.
its my choice to not stand back and allow you to insult me and call me a murderer.
its my choice and opinion to not demean you for you decision to be a vegitarian.
its my choice to not debate with you due to that fact that the debate would never end, and it would be a waste of time.
i understand you are compassionate about your choices, but you continue to make me repeat myself. notice how i am not bringing any information to the "debate"? its not because i do not know of any, its because it would be redundant.
heres something to chew on: if animals have a complex the same as ours, if they feel and can think and have reactions, then why don't they feel bad about eating another animal? we do not see remorse in the animal world, we do not see things such as suicide. read up on the galapagous (sp?) islands over in ecuador. the animals there have no real preditor and because of this they do not fear humans - they do not have fear. its not a natural aspect. something we experience at a young age, some animals never develope. or what about animal instinct with survival of the fittest?
this is one point, and im not going to push it farther because yes i know, you have points to come right back at me.
this debate will never end, and that is what alot of people are trying to tell you on here.
and kid, you really really need to stop calling me uneducated. should i start calling you a tree hugging no good hippie? i dont understand why my choice to not be a vegitarian makes me less intelligent than you.
im sure i could school you in a debate about modern art, about cancer treatments, about coaching, and about many other issues i am passionate about and study. like i said, get off your pedastal. i can see that you have done your homework. and if you are so passionate why not go on a crusade? knock on some doors during dinner time, and point fingers at children that sitting down to dinner and call them selfish murderers. and be sure to tell them that mommy and daddy are wrong, and that they are murderers too.

oh and my point about the abortion - you support a womens right to commit murder? to alot of people thats what abortion is.
im pro-choice, but i can understand where the pro-life people are coming from.
i eat meat, but i can understand where vegitarians are coming from.