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[Knigel]

i understand you believe eating meat is murder.

"i don't like it when you kill animals". alrighty. i understand that, through the act of buying and consuming meat, animals (who were DOMESTICATED for the purpose of being dinner) die. but the fact is, even if 50% of the population were vegetarian, animals would STILL get slaughtered for the rest of the population to consume. it's going to take a lot of convincing to get people to stop eating meat. i don't think your arguments have convinced anyone.

Everything comes in steps and I and others strive for the reduction of suffering. If it’s only 50% who are not eating meat then that’s also 50% more and makes a big difference. You say there is no change, and I used to think that too but things have come a long way in the last few years. People are becoming more aware of nutrition and alternatives, it’s becoming easier and easier to just not eat meat. Years ago it was really tough. All arguments convince someone in some way. The old “Bo one’s listening to you so shut up” tactic doesn’t work with me, I do apologize.

people like you are the reason i don;t respect some vegetarians/vegans. they argue and argue and argue... without any positive conseqence.
no one appreciates being preached at. it gets tiresome. and no one listens after awhile. the comments made here remind me of a religious fanatic.

It doesn’t matter what associations get built up in your own head to try to make sense of me, it doesn’t matter what I remind you of, it’s what I actually am that matters most. I am an advocate of animals who aren’t given the chance to state their case. I will argue their case the best I can. I am in a Peta thread that has many people flinging thoughts back and forth. I happen to be one of the most outspoken in this thread, but I’m neither starting new topics or heading into other posts to spread the “good word”. I am not slinging something intangible like a god claiming all will receive after life and all are sinners, I am bringing up solid arguments and information for a related discussion. Anyone has the choice to outdebate me but ad hominem fallacies don’t cut it. If you have a problem with what I’m saying prove me wrong.

lets put is this way: i like christian people. as long as they aren;t thumping the bible in my face and telling me i am a sinner who is going to hell unless i find jesus. (some of my closest friends are christians - they don;t flaunt it tho) i don;t appreciate people shoving their beliefs in my face. its not to say their beliefs are wrong, i just don't share the same beliefs as they do. no matter how much they preach to me that i need to convert, i won;t.

I’m shoving nothing in your face, you’re on the internet in a Peta thread. I also get along fine with meat eaters in the real world when they aren’t shoving meat in my face. There is tolerance on both sides my friend, but the internet is for discussion of ideas, thoughts, and opinions.

its the same with vegetarians/vegans (the militant sort). thats FINE if you don;t want to eat meat. but don;t keep preaching at me that my lifestyle is wrong. all the preaching in the world won;t make me convert to a vegetarian. i'm happy for those that take the moral high ground and refuse to eat the flesh of another creature. good for them. but for the love of god, don;t preach about it!!!!

I’m sure slave owners were sick of people “preaching” against their god given right to own slaves. As I said to mugsy, you have the choice to do whatever you want but if you’re not respecting others choices as well you have to expect others to stand up to you in their defence. That’s the wonders of social dynamics; we stick up for each other sometimes.

if i ever decided to stop eating meat, it would be my own personal deciscion that had nothign to do with how anyone else felt. i wouldn;t stop eating meat simply because someone kept preaching to me about how horrible it was

I fully agree with you, I don’t want you to not eat meat because of what I feel. My goal is for you to not eat meat according to your own decision. All I’m doing is giving reasons, and thoughts that you may not have thought of. This is how opinions get changed. Conversation allows mental growth. Honestly I’m open to eating meat if there are solid arguments to do so, or change other aspects of my life. Sometimes it takes some effort and sometimes I have to work extra hard to make sure I’m not just being stubborn. I always ask myself “Am I really listening? Am I really being open? Am I only rejecting this to make it easy on myself?”

and don;t rip me a new asshole over this. (its 3.30 in the morning. if this post didnt make sense, its cuz i'm half asleep)

It made sense just fine, good job, I know how insomnia is. You might want to try 5-HTP, or even Melatonin since it’s legal in Canada again.

CAN:T EVERYONE AGREE TO DISAGREE!?!??!!??!!

I don’t know why people use this phrase but I’m never one to do that.

[miss.myra]

Originally Posted by *spacecase*

its the same with vegetarians/vegans (the militant sort). thats FINE if you don;t want to eat meat. but don;t keep preaching at me that my lifestyle is wrong. all the preaching in the world won;t make me convert to a vegetarian. i'm happy for those that take the moral high ground and refuse to eat the flesh of another creature. good for them. but for the love of god, don;t preach about it!!!!

if i ever decided to stop eating meat, it would be my own personal deciscion that had nothign to do with how anyone else felt. i wouldn;t stop eating meat simply because someone kept preaching to me about how horrible it was.

And ideally, this should work both ways.

[Knigel]

its my opinion that you are extremely stubborn.
its my opinion that i think vegitarians\vegitarianism is fine.
its my chocie of life that i am not a vegitarian.
its my choice to not stand back and allow you to insult me and call me a murderer.
its my choice and opinion to not demean you for you decision to be a vegitarian.
its my choice to not debate with you due to that fact that the debate would never end, and it would be a waste of time.

Why would you think I would be stubborn? Because I ask you to back yourself up and you fail to give me evidence? I’m going to remain with my beliefs until someone gives a good argument against them. All debates have an end somewhere even if you can’t see it, argument for argument one is usually bound to outweigh the other. Again it’s great that you’ve decided to not demean my decision to be vegetarian yet I don’t know what you would demean me for, on the other hand I can think of many reasons to demean the choice to eat meat. You have to remember I’m trying to stay focused on attacking your choices, not on who you actually are as a person.

i understand you are compassionate about your choices, but you continue to make me repeat myself. notice how i am not bringing any information to the "debate"? its not because i do not know of any, its because it would be redundant.

Please don’t fault me for your own choice to repeat yourself, I don’t know why you would in the first place. It’s more redundant to get defensive in a debate and not back yourself up with actual well grounded evidence to plead your case. To survive here you opinion needs a premise. Opinion don’t have to be respected, this is one of the foundations of critical thought. Opinions have to be grounded on solid evidence to be valid or they seem uneducated and fragile.

heres something to chew on: if animals have a complex the same as ours, if they feel and can think and have reactions, then why don't they feel bad about eating another animal? we do not see remorse in the animal world, we do not see things such as suicide. read up on the galapagous (sp?) islands over in ecuador. the animals there have no real preditor and because of this they do not fear humans - they do not have fear. its not a natural aspect. something we experience at a young age, some animals never develope. or what about animal instinct with survival of the fittest?

Who ever said anything about animals having the same complex as human animals? I know I never said that. You seem to be setting up a straw man here. A nice little dummy argument that you can tear down easy and reign victorious. When you’re done with that you might want to actually continue with one of my arguments and make an attempt to take that one on. Animals have differences from human animals just as human animals have differences from each other. Just because we are different give a good argument to cause the other ones to suffer. Animals do have complex systems and senses that allow them to feel pain and suffering. Just because a creature doesn’t know it’s about to feel pain doesn’t mean it won’t. Their trust for humans has no real relevance to your case. Survival of the fittest is great, I’ve said this already. I’m a firm believer in NEEDS vs. WANTS. If something NEEDS to survive then I urge it to do so. However is something wants to express destructive behaviour just because it wants to then I’ll try to prevent it.

this is one point, and im not going to push it farther because yes i know, you have points to come right back at me.
this debate will never end, and that is what alot of people are trying to tell you on here.
and kid, you really really need to stop calling me uneducated. should i start calling you a tree hugging no good hippie? i dont understand why my choice to not be a vegitarian makes me less intelligent than you.

Again, most arguments have an end when everything is weighed up. Arguments don’t even need an end to be worthwhile. Of course I’m going to have points to come back at you, you are far from stumping me with your keen logic and reasoning skills. It’s great that you’re educated, you might want to ask your teacher was “educated opinion” means. Honestly have you ever sat down and read a book on the issues of eating meat, animal rights, vegetarianism? Have you ever really sat down with the internet and spent a good chunk of time weighing up the arguments for and against eating meat? If not then your opinion on this issue is very shallow and your premise is weak.

im sure i could school you in a debate about modern art, about cancer treatments, about coaching, and about many other issues i am passionate about and study. like i said, get off your pedastal. i can see that you have done your homework. and if you are so passionate why not go on a crusade? knock on some doors during dinner time, and point fingers at children that sitting down to dinner and call them selfish murderers. and be sure to tell them that mommy and daddy are wrong, and that they are murderers too.

When I start talking out my ass on one of those subject please feel free to tell me I have an uneducated opinion and correct me. I’m not on a pedistool, please don’t try to put me on one to make it easier to knock me down. Stop with the ad hominem attacks and deal with my arguments. I will also strive for the activism of my choosing as well as talking to you, but thanks for the suggestion.

oh and my point about the abortion - you support a womens right to commit murder? to alot of people thats what abortion is.
im pro-choice, but i can understand where the pro-life people are coming from.
i eat meat, but i can understand where vegitarians are coming from.

I also support the right to kill for food in the right circumstances so what’s the strong point you’re making here? I’ve already stated that if something NEEDS to survive. Women also risk death in birth so it is very much their choice. I will empower it to do so. It’s when something is committing destructive behaviour just because it WANTS to that I will try prevention. I understand where you are coming from when you eat meat but I don’t agree with it and am letting you know. Your WANT doesn’t outweigh NEED.

[rawb]

just because you're the only person willing to invest a good portion of your time with paragraph by paragraph replies to everyone doesn't mean your points are universally stronger, smarter or better, it just means you have more free time you're willing to devote picking apart what people say.

[Knigel]

Originally Posted by rawb

just because you're the only person willing to invest a good portion of your time with paragraph by paragraph replies to everyone doesn't mean your points are universally stronger, smarter or better, it just means you have more free time you're willing to devote picking apart what people say.

That’s true of absolutely anything. If my argument is weak there is always the option to dispute it, specifically from the people who are already participating in this thread. I'm sure there are enough people on these forums with more then enough free time to prove me wrong. I know arguments back and forth, from both sides. Many people on the net and in life have taken time to write a lot about why we should eat meat and related subject. In my opinion from the information and from what I know now I see a stronger case on not eating meat. It's up for dispute if anyone chooses to. On the same note my arguments are not universally weak because people don’t have time to participate.

[rawb]

any argument can be disputed to the death by someone with more time, from the best to the worst. laying seige to a thread with your viewpoints just makes the entire conversation a huge time suck. no matter what the person says you can always take one weak paragraph and flame the shit out of it, starting off an entire new tangent.

message boards are not geared towards debate, this entire thread of week+ messages could have been done in 20-30 mins of speech. after a certain point almost everyone realises it's a waste of time to debate morals on a medium that isn't conducive to debate, especially with someone who cares about the issue multiple more times than they do.

[Knigel]

Originally Posted by rawb

any argument can be disputed to the death by someone with more time, from the best to the worst. laying seige to a thread with your viewpoints just makes the entire conversation a huge time suck. no matter what the person says you can always take one weak paragraph and flame the shit out of it, starting off an entire new tangent.

message boards are not geared towards debate, this entire thread of week+ messages could have been done in 20-30 mins of speech. after a certain point almost everyone realises it's a waste of time to debate morals on a medium that isn't conducive to debate, especially with someone who cares about the issue multiple more times than they do.

any argument can be disputed to the death by someone with more time, from the best to the worst. laying seige to a thread with your viewpoints just makes the entire conversation a huge time suck. no matter what the person says you can always take one weak paragraph and flame the shit out of it, starting off an entire new tangent.

Yes you can dispute anything to death but evidence and good argument is essential to having the dispute actually within the bounds of reason. I think I’ve been focused on attacking all of the arguments, not just the weak ones. If you think I missed a valid point just let me know. Tangents are one of the interesting aspects of forums, the information is there and allows someone who is paying attention to go back and contradict the opponent with their own words.

message boards are not geared towards debate, this entire thread of week+ messages could have been done in 20-30 mins of speech. after a certain point almost everyone realises it's a waste of time to debate morals on a medium that isn't conducive to debate, especially with someone who cares about the issue multiple more times than they do.

I don’t think you’re correct, I think message boards are very much geared towards debate. They allow a diversity of views that keeps you on your toes. Message boards breed good arguments that get very resilient and also allow for new thoughts to emerge. Message boards aren’t the only means of transportation but they are very valid. You seem to be under the impression that I have more time on my hands then everyone else on here, I really don’t think that’s the case, I think I just spend less time on other inane posts.

Honestly, participating in debate and then saying that there is no point because it’s on a message board seems like a major cop out. Any form of communication is a very valid vehicle for debate. If you think it’s a waste of time then feel free to find more productive hobbies. Others however are still in participation and putting in their own time.

[Knigel]

I apologize if I don't contribute to the FnK norms of one liners and punch line paragraphs.

[Knigel]

^that was ironic.

[Knigel]

“and if you are so passionate why not go on a crusade? knock on some doors during dinner time, and point fingers at children that sitting down to dinner and call them selfish murderers. and be sure to tell them that mommy and daddy are wrong, and that they are murderers too.”

You mean like putting up PETA neither of us is meat posters?

[mugsy]

^ as long as it isnt directed towards the slaughter of many women, therefor affending the family and friends, reminding them of the death of their loved ones. give them the "facts of wants and needs" like your so wonderfully giving us.

my mom worked at an elemnetary school where there was a young girl a member of a vegan family. her digestive track was so messed up that she would have an "accident" at least once a week. it came down to the little girl having to wear adult diapers. meat can be a need.

i was anemic, iron was a need, meat was an easy way for me to obtain it since i wasnt vegitarian. (YES i realize that iron is provided in veggies, and i even ate a shit load more of them)

and i have done research on diet and nutrition. i was very sick in grade 11 and 12. i refused to listen to anyone but myself, so i sat down in the public library and looked up nutrition, so as when i ate, it would be the best for my body. i was lacking in alot of sugars and protiens and everything else i needed. i have a tendancy to become hyperglacemic. i need protien to balance my blood sugars out and sometimes vice versa. if its progressed, i have a spoon full of peanut butter because it digests fast. if it isnt, i ensure that i eat some sort of meat at a meal. i dont believe in vitamen suppliments, i think they are completely unnatural. my problems could be fixed with them, but im not going to take them.

i know plenty about my needs from personal experience, and i could continue, but i dont see how my personal needs apply to a universal debate. or how they can apply universally to people.

everyone is different, everyone has different needs.

and i havent been playing games, ive been getting angry at your responses due to the fact that you tear down each person who chooses to state something, you say you let us have our own choice, yet every time we come even close to stating it, you jump down someones throats.

and in proper debates, you do not call the other person unintelligent or hint at it.

[Knigel]

^ as long as it isnt directed towards the slaughter of many women, therefor affending the family and friends, reminding them of the death of their loved ones. give them the "facts of wants and needs" like your so wonderfully giving us.

Mugsy Quote - >“WE ALL HAVE THE RIGHT TO OUR OWN FUCKING OPINIONS.
what i am saying is that opinions between different people will always be different, ideas vary, life styles vary, everything fucking varies. obviously you cant handle people having opinions different than your own, because if you did, you wouldnt respond in the ways you have.
please realize that everyone here has the right to choice\opinion. yes i am being repetitive, but you dont seem to be listening. WE ALL SEE YOUR SIDE. let us have our own side.” < - Quote

my mom worked at an elemnetary school where there was a young girl a member of a vegan family. her digestive track was so messed up that she would have an "accident" at least once a week. it came down to the little girl having to wear adult diapers. meat can be a need.

This is actually a good argument and does bring up a good point. This is the type of reasoning I was looking for.

Many veggies do get a bad rep in general due to several cases of malnutrition; this is a fact. But just because someone is a veggie doesn’t necessarily mean that they know what they are doing nutrition wise. Taking the path of a veggie is a learning experience and can be shoot and miss. It’s the entire process of looking for alternatives that matters. Honestly I’m not hard on people who eat meat but are still in the process of reducing suffering, it’s when they have complete apathy and ignorance that I get my feathers ruffled. Seriously, if there is an alternative and people are refusing to look at it or even to think about it then it becomes frustrating, specifically living in society, which I would like to see improve. On your point again, many veggies get caught in the thought of abstaining from meat instead of looking for alternatives and replacements, I see this as dangerous. Any system of food intake can be done wrong, if you aren’t getting your nutrients you’re going to become unhealthy. One thing I personally try not to do is judge meat eaters on the worst cases, it’s an easy thought to get into “just look at the American McJunkies blah blah blah” but this is an over generalization. There are people who eat meat and are very healthy and balanced in diet and nutrition. I would be a fool to ignore this and only focus on the negative. I can’t lump everyone into one category like that.

For the girl in your elementary I’ll mention that a majority of veggies are actually down on that kind of behaviour. It makes everyone look bad when people are simply not eating right and not making an effort to stay healthy. We deserve your comment since it can be an issue to some veggies, and as a movement we are often judged by our worst. Please remember to not judge a system from people who simply don’t eat healthy. The entire concept is based on awareness and striving to be conscious and educated.

i was anemic, iron was a need, meat was an easy way for me to obtain it since i wasnt vegitarian. (YES i realize that iron is provided in veggies, and i even ate a shit load more of them)

Ok so if you felt eating meat was a NEED at that time is it still a need? Veggie sources do provide the iron you need so there is an alternative to eating meat. Being anemic means that you need to find the nutrients for your body to keep you healthy, if there are no alternatives I would say that you should eat meat but there are alternatives so think this has a flaw. I personally think this stops becoming a NEED and becomes a WANT. If you feel that there was no way possible at that time to not eat meat such as not having enough veggies available then I think you may be justified in this scenario. Now you have a continued choice, is there still a need? Would this not be over consumption beyond necessity? Is the reason to continue eating meat based on anemia? Can other alternatives be used?

and i have done research on diet and nutrition. i was very sick in grade 11 and 12. i refused to listen to anyone but myself, so i sat down in the public library and looked up nutrition, so as when i ate, it would be the best for my body. i was lacking in alot of sugars and protiens and everything else i needed. i have a tendancy to become hyperglacemic. i need protien to balance my blood sugars out and sometimes vice versa. if its progressed, i have a spoon full of peanut butter because it digests fast. if it isnt, i ensure that i eat some sort of meat at a meal. i dont believe in vitamen suppliments, i think they are completely unnatural. my problems could be fixed with them, but im not going to take them.

Ok this is awesome, I like it when people are willing to research. If I did some research for you and pulled up some information on alternative sources for the nutrients you need and some information on some other sources that you may not be aware of, would you be interested? If you’re interested in nutrition I’m sure I could pull up quite a bit for you. If you have any questions on any nutrients and sources just let me know and I’ll give you the info. I understand your concern for vitamin supplements so I’ll try to stay away from that area and give you natural sources for everything. If you are seriously interested in the benefits of nutrition just let me know, I don’t want to use a bunch of time to research this and gather info and have you just not read it, but I’ll be willing to do this for you if you want. You can do your own thinking about any of the material just like at the library, just straight up info that you can reject if you think it’s invalid.

i know plenty about my needs from personal experience, and i could continue, but i dont see how my personal needs apply to a universal debate. or how they can apply universally to people.

everyone is different, everyone has different needs.

Yes I do agree but at the same time I believe that everything has the basic need to life.

and i havent been playing games, ive been getting angry at your responses due to the fact that you tear down each person who chooses to state something, you say you let us have our own choice, yet every time we come even close to stating it, you jump down someones throats.

Anger is ok, at least you’re paying attention and communicating. It’s kind of like Zen Gardening. You don’t try to move the boulder in your way you plant around it to make it pretty. The thing is no matter how much anyone who has been reading this thread denies it, they have actually been learning something. A while ago I was similar to you but I would use arguments on the favour of eating meat and against being a vegetarian similar to what I’m doing now. I’m sure I’d even get angry at times, specifically with Militant Vegans. Things change as does emotion and understanding. As for jumping down peoples throats, I do apologise if my tact is a little off sometimes, you have to remember I’m constantly on the defence so will seem offensive to some. Just take a look through this thread and try to see it through my eyes. I believe in animal rights and have strong empathy towards them, then posts come up talking about fur coats and eating hamburgers just to add black humour and try to get a rise out of veggies. This is not something that particularly bugs me, I see it as a lame attempt to use humour to avoid an issue, but the surrounding mentality is hard to wade through. I do try to remain as productive and tactful in my conversations as possible. Such as the Peta posters, the vehicle of the communication gets more attention then actual point. Sometimes it’s hard to smell like flowers to the people who you have opposition to. What is the most tactful way to portray the emotion of suffering to people causing it?

and in proper debates, you do not call the other person unintelligent or hint at it.

How many proper debates have YOU been in fine sir? Am I just in all the wrong ones??!?!? =D

If you are referring to me saying that you didn’t have an educated opinion I’ll make it a little bit more clear.

Educated Opinion doesn’t mean that you aren’t educated or smart in other areas of life. Educated Opinion means that your opinion in the topical area is weak of information and understanding. I don’t have an educated opinion in several areas in life but in other areas I do. I try hard to attack arguments and not make personal attacks. If I slip up I’ll admit that it is bad form and semi-apologize.

[mugsy]

maybe im a cruel person, but the death of a human being gathers more grief in me than a death of an animal. i have had a lot of pets die, and even held one of my birds as it died, and yes i felt terrible, but not as terrible as when a human dies.

i've dont outside research as well for diets, stuff that didnt just come from the library, and at one point was going to see a dietrition. i work with a dietrition right now (shes a swim coach as am i), i have resources to alot of information. i have also had many conversations with my gp about diet\health due to family members being sick. i cook the dinners, and i believe in preventative measures for cancer and heart problems such as blood pressure.

this is why i got a bit offended when you said that i needed to do some research, because i have.

and i do find meat as a need for myself, i get awful migranes and its usually one of four things that takes care of them: carrots, caffine, meat or less stress. and having had them for over four years, i have done plently of research and trial and error to find those results.

in my case, i see meat as a need. i dont eat pork, i eat some steak, chicken, and i am trying to like fish because of its health benefits. i dont eat alot of meat, most is maybe a meal a day, in fact i havent had any today. because of this though, i know tomorow morning i have to have a bit with breakfast or my body will let me know. maybe i have developed a need? either way, i'd rather eat meat then be ill.

the little girl at the school was a vegan, and alot of kids are very picky eaters. so i dont blame her parents neccessarily for a bad diet, shes just a kid, and probably doesnt enjoy everything on the balanced vegan menu. still i think if a child is not receiving nutrition through a certain diet, another diet should be found\taken on.

[mugsy]

Originally Posted by Knigel

How many proper debates have YOU been in fine sir?

p.s. i am a girl.

[Joanne]

Originally Posted by *spacecase*

people like you are the reason i don;t respect some vegetarians/vegans. they argue and argue and argue... without any positive conseqence.
no one appreciates being preached at. it gets tiresome. and no one listens after awhile. the comments made here remind me of a religious fanatic.

lets put is this way: i like christian people. as long as they aren;t thumping the bible in my face and telling me i am a sinner who is going to hell unless i find jesus. (some of my closest friends are christians - they don;t flaunt it tho) i don;t appreciate people shoving their beliefs in my face. its not to say their beliefs are wrong, i just don't share the same beliefs as they do. no matter how much they preach to me that i need to convert, i won;t.

its the same with vegetarians/vegans (the militant sort). thats FINE if you don;t want to eat meat. but don;t keep preaching at me that my lifestyle is wrong. all the preaching in the world won;t make me convert to a vegetarian. i'm happy for those that take the moral high ground and refuse to eat the flesh of another creature. good for them. but for the love of god, don;t preach about it!!!!

it's a debate. no one's knocking on your door preaching for you to convert. we're all simply giving points towards our point of view.

I have never tried to convert friends into vegetarians. in fact, in my experience, most of the harassing and jokes come from the meat-eaters when I tell them I am a vegetarian. maybe I'm just a bit jaded, but if you're going to make fun of or diss my lifestyle, you're going to hear my side of the coin. and for those who claim that by doing so, I am disrespectful, preaching or trying to convert them, I see it as them just not being able handle a good debate. in which case, I suggest them either not to bring it up or don't bother reading or replying to the thread.

--Joanne :P

[Joanne]

the little girl at the school was a vegan, and alot of kids are very picky eaters. so i dont blame her parents neccessarily for a bad diet, shes just a kid, and probably doesnt enjoy everything on the balanced vegan menu. still i think if a child is not receiving nutrition through a certain diet, another diet should be found\taken on.

I wouldn't blame the fact that the kid for not enjoying her food because of her diet. how many times have your parents forced you to eat yucky vegetables because they're good for you? if a child is not receiving all the nutrients through a vegan diet, you could opt for vegan foods that DO provide those nutrients. you speak as if a vegan diet is so nutrient-deficient and not sufficient for anyone. have you done much research about vegan diets?

--Joanne :P

[Joanne]

Originally Posted by mugsy

my mom worked at an elemnetary school where there was a young girl a member of a vegan family. her digestive track was so messed up that she would have an "accident" at least once a week. it came down to the little girl having to wear adult diapers. meat can be a need.

I don't know if you've noticed but there are millions of meat-eaters suffering from diabetes, cardiovascular diseases, cerebrovascular accidents, obesity, etc.

but then again, there are also healthy meat-eaters.

please don't judge a lifestyle or diet based on one of two people you know.

and I'd also like to know how did being a vegan cause this little girl's digestive track to mess up and how is meat supposed to help?

--Joanne :P

[Discord]

alot of peta's adds bug me

tho i'm all for peta

... they didn't pull it, they agreed not to put it up in B.C. tho.

[Discord]

oh..

and my cousin (10 years old) has been a vegan sense birth.. and she's healthy and perfectly happy.

Veganism (done healthy safe and right)... isn't dangrous at all... if that girl was sick.. she must have had very VERY careless parents.

[mugsy]

joanne - im not making fun of any vegitarians, and thats the main thing i have been trying to say on here, but knigel said to bring some issues to the table. it was an example i knew of, thats all. few vegitarians\vegan's eat unhealthy. didnt you state early that vegitarians can be obese? mostly i was just trying to state that it isnt neccessarily a healthier diet. but for many, it is. just like how there are plenty of healthy meat eating people too.

vegans are healthy, so are vegitarians, but i dont want the fact that meat eaters are healthy too to be dismissed, and yes i know you stated this.
i dont disagree with vegitarianism, nor do i think vegitarians should change their menu or vegans for that matter, all i was doing was showing that yes i could bring some points to the table, and that the argument would not end.
and again this was just one point i was bringing to the table to make an example to knigel. granted it wasnt the strongest point, but it was still a point.

[Joanne]

Originally Posted by mugsy

joanne - im not making fun of any vegitarians, and thats the main thing i have been trying to say on here, but knigel said to bring some issues to the table. it was an example i knew of, thats all. few vegitarians\vegan's eat unhealthy. didnt you state early that vegitarians can be obese? mostly i was just trying to state that it isnt neccessarily a healthier diet. but for many, it is. just like how there are plenty of healthy meat eating people too.

vegans are healthy, so are vegitarians, but i dont want the fact that meat eaters are healthy too to be dismissed, and yes i know you stated this.
i dont disagree with vegitarianism, nor do i think vegitarians should change their menu or vegans for that matter, all i was doing was showing that yes i could bring some points to the table, and that the argument would not end.
and again this was just one point i was bringing to the table to make an example to knigel. granted it wasnt the strongest point, but it was still a point.

well, I think that's good that you can see the health benefits of those diets. but thing I have a problem with is assuming that this girl's digestive system was problematic simply because she was a vegan, and then when others (not specifically you) go on to assume that all vegans are this way.

was there actually a scientific explanation as to why her diet caused this to happen? or did everyone just blindly assume that she was sick simply because of her diet?

--Joanne :P

[mugsy]

^ your taking a simple comment way too far. no i did not know the girl personally, no i am not her doctor. so of course i cant give you an explanation and i realize this is your point in that you are demeaning my comment to being fuddle-duddle and hear-say.

[*spacecase*]

Originally Posted by mugsy

joanne - im not making fun of any vegitarians, and thats the main thing i have been trying to say on here, but knigel said to bring some issues to the table. it was an example i knew of, thats all. few vegitarians\vegan's eat unhealthy. didnt you state early that vegitarians can be obese? mostly i was just trying to state that it isnt neccessarily a healthier diet. but for many, it is. just like how there are plenty of healthy meat eating people too.

vegans are healthy, so are vegitarians, but i dont want the fact that meat eaters are healthy too to be dismissed, and yes i know you stated this.
i dont disagree with vegitarianism, nor do i think vegitarians should change their menu or vegans for that matter, all i was doing was showing that yes i could bring some points to the table, and that the argument would not end.
and again this was just one point i was bringing to the table to make an example to knigel. granted it wasnt the strongest point, but it was still a point.

amen!

[Joanne]

Originally Posted by mugsy

^ your taking a simple comment way too far. no i did not know the girl personally, no i am not her doctor. so of course i cant give you an explanation and i realize this is your point in that you are demeaning my comment to being fuddle-duddle and hear-say.

and the reason why I asked the question is because you're using the fact that this girl was a vegan and as an argument that the diet is what caused her digestive tract problems and that meat is needed to fix it.

I asked you how the diet and her problems are correlated.. how is this taking it too far?

--Joanne :P

[Joanne]

Originally Posted by mugsy

vegans are healthy, so are vegitarians, but i dont want the fact that meat eaters are healthy too to be dismissed, and yes i know you stated this.
i dont disagree with vegitarianism, nor do i think vegitarians should change their menu or vegans for that matter, all i was doing was showing that yes i could bring some points to the table, and that the argument would not end.
and again this was just one point i was bringing to the table to make an example to knigel. granted it wasnt the strongest point, but it was still a point.

the fact that you couldn't even give me a reason how veganism contributed to the girl's digestive problems doesn't make it a point. this argument could go on forever if people kept putting out information that are completely irrelevant to the topic.

--Joanne :P