VERY interesting article - Provincial Liquor Crackdown

[wishbone]

Originally Posted by kir mokum

yeah, i have to admit i had to look up "organization" and "flow" before i posted that.

i think better management would work a lot better than a fine.

mmhmm, it's punishment versus prevention. you'll always need both, but most of the time in any situation its the prevention part that needs work.

[kir mokum]

and both prevention and punishment should come from management. why would you get the gov. involved in something that should be taken care of in house?

[SEAN!]

Originally Posted by oddmud

fuck that, you probably believe in unions too don't you?

bullshit, take personal responsibility.

unions or not it is ultimately the reasonsibilitiy of management to ensure their employees are educated and reasonible regarding the law. Otherwise its poor judgement on the part of management to hire them in the first place.

[ebbomega]

Originally Posted by kir mokum

and who's hiring, training, monitoring, managing, and firing these bad employees? the reason owners get fined is because they bare the greatest responsibility. they're responsible for the managers who are responsible for the employees. if the employees are doing a bad job it's up to management to correct it and they're ultimately responsible for the actions of those below them.

this is really basic shit guys.

No shit. If someone can't do the job without getting fined from the city, they really shouldn't be allowed to do that job.

[ebbomega]

Originally Posted by pubowner101

Organizational flow. Wow ! these are big words. In a night club with 600 people. It does not always go so smoothly. Humans will only take action if they have a barrier. For example a fine of 500 dollars. That should do the trick. organization flow may work in the office but not so often in the Hospitality biz.

Which do you think would be more effective? 500 dollars or threat of being fired?

[dabbler]

Originally Posted by pubowner101

By the way the average wage for a server is 10 - 15 dollars an hour + tips. A good server came make from 40 000 - 70 0000 a year.

average wage $10-$15/hr base pay? you are out to lunch on that one.

I have a lot of friends who work as servers, and none of them make more than minimum wage + tips. Shift manager's do - but then they get less tips because they are managing not serving.

[ppcock]

that good server needs to have huge tits and extremely short skirts.

[oddmud]

Originally Posted by SEAN!

unions or not it is ultimately the reasonsibilitiy of management to ensure their employees are educated and reasonible regarding the law. Otherwise its poor judgement on the part of management to hire them in the first place.

you sir, are an idiot.

poor judgment of hiring practices? you think that's what causes over pouring? you don't think it's a personal preference to get more tips? a bartender pours a drink, the bartender gets a tip. it's greed over intelligence. i think that even the best bartenders tend to get caught up in the greed cycle.

do you think they can baby sit each bartender? do you think that have "educated an reasonible(i spelt it wrong on purpose)" hires are going to stop the over pour?

ever ran your own business with employees? ever been a manager even? you can hire based on skill, appearance, knowledge, and experience. none of that is going to tell you if this guy you just hired knows when to stop pouring to a drunken fool. plus you can preach and warn, and do your best, but you can't stand there an inspect each act that your bartender does. it's up to them to be responsible, they have to pass the serving it right! they have to know what the signs are to avoid over serving.

it's not the owner of the bar's fault.

ps: learn to spell.

[dabbler]

most bars that either I have worked in, or have friends who did - the management knows nearly %100 of everything that happens. Its clearly obvious when a customer is too drunk to be served to everyone (including managers and owners) and usually management encourages serving to anyone as long as they can stand, talk, keep their eyes open. I worked in two bars recently where servers would get in trouble if they had refused to serve the already-drunk (regulars) very often.

yes it is the server who should be first to ask themselves "should this person be served" but also yes it is the managers responsibility to look out for everything. Management by definition is there to ensure that everyone does their job, and does it properly.

[dabbler]

and if your argument is that the server should be responsible, then bar owners shouldn't need a liquor license - this should be the responsibility of the server as well, no? because that's where the responsibility lies... with the person who has the liquor license.

[oddmud]

ok, joint responsibility then. your argument works for me jay.

[kir mokum]

lol...

[miss.myra]

fucking bar managers encouraging people to keep serving that creepy drunk motherfucker and making it worse for every single girl at the bar.

[Courtney]

Originally Posted by oddmud

you sir, are an idiot.

poor judgment of hiring practices? you think that's what causes over pouring? you don't think it's a personal preference to get more tips? a bartender pours a drink, the bartender gets a tip. it's greed over intelligence. i think that even the best bartenders tend to get caught up in the greed cycle.

do you think they can baby sit each bartender? do you think that have "educated an reasonible(i spelt it wrong on purpose)" hires are going to stop the over pour?

ever ran your own business with employees? ever been a manager even? you can hire based on skill, appearance, knowledge, and experience. none of that is going to tell you if this guy you just hired knows when to stop pouring to a drunken fool. plus you can preach and warn, and do your best, but you can't stand there an inspect each act that your bartender does. it's up to them to be responsible, they have to pass the serving it right! they have to know what the signs are to avoid over serving.

it's not the owner of the bar's fault.

ps: learn to spell.

clearly these bartenders you speak of aren't the proud owners of a serving it right certificate! I'm kidding but I have bartended and I have definetely served people I shouldn't have....however there does come a point when serving someone is morally wrong imo, and that is when you talk to a manager. I think it is the responsibility of three people, the drinker first and foremost (though they are beyond that point obv), the manger, and the server.

[Courtney]

I guess the management has to weigh it out....an extra 100 bucks for the night or a million dollar law suit when the guy kills himself and someone else on the way home

[ty:rone]

that spooky had a fuckin awesome lineup...

[SEAN!]

Originally Posted by oddmud

you sir, are an idiot.

poor judgment of hiring practices? you think that's what causes over pouring? you don't think it's a personal preference to get more tips? a bartender pours a drink, the bartender gets a tip. it's greed over intelligence. i think that even the best bartenders tend to get caught up in the greed cycle.

do you think they can baby sit each bartender? do you think that have "educated an reasonible(i spelt it wrong on purpose)" hires are going to stop the over pour?

ever ran your own business with employees? ever been a manager even? you can hire based on skill, appearance, knowledge, and experience. none of that is going to tell you if this guy you just hired knows when to stop pouring to a drunken fool. plus you can preach and warn, and do your best, but you can't stand there an inspect each act that your bartender does. it's up to them to be responsible, they have to pass the serving it right! they have to know what the signs are to avoid over serving.

it's not the owner of the bar's fault.

ps: learn to spell.

no retard you're the idiot this is a question of law more then anything else.

an employer has a duty to ensure that their employees are operting reasonably and are informed of their duties. Given that is necessary to have a serving it right certificate to serve alchohol it is understod that the employees are excersizing reasonable judgement.

there is also the fundamental legal principle of vicarious liability in which a employer is jointly liable with the employee for conduct preformed within the scope of the employee's employment.

this is basic tort law, read a book before you open your mouth over shit you know nothing about.


p.s. learn to read/think, spell check is ubiquitous, you have a greater obsatcle to overcome.