VERY interesting article - Provincial Liquor Crackdown

[Kraig]

This article was featured in this week Georgia Straight which directly supports a lot of the pain that the provincial Liquor Control and Licensing Branch put us through with Spooky... Definitely an interesting read:

Taken from the Georgia Straight website - http://www.straight.com/content.cfm?id=6096

Police Zero In on Nightclubs
By Charlie Smith

Publish Date: 28-Oct-2004

Downtown Vancouver bar owners say they're being targeted by a "zero tolerance" liquor-enforcement policy. John Teti, chairperson of Barwatch, an industry association, told the Georgia Straight that 90 percent of the bars on Granville Street have "compliance issues" with the provincial Liquor Control and Licensing Branch. He noted that Vancouver has much lower barroom capacities than every other B.C. municipality.

Vancouver nightclub patrons sometimes stand outside in lineups even though they would be permitted inside equally crowded clubs in other communities. "We would like to see the Vancouver fire-marshal capacity fall in line with the provincial fire-marshal capacity, which we believe is somewhere between 15 and 25 percent [higher]," Teti said.

In 2002, the B.C. Liberal government announced streamlined liquor-licensing requirements but also created tough new penalties. The latest regulation imposes a fine or four- to seven-day liquor-licence suspensions on a first offence for exceeding the "occupant load". A second offence carries a 10- to 14-day suspension; subsequent infractions mean 18- to 20-day suspensions. Fines range between $5,000 to $7,000.

Teti claimed that Vancouver police sometimes accompany liquor inspectors or show up by themselves. "This is the police department that said, 'Stay home on New Year's Eve,' " Teti said.

Vancouver police media spokesperson Const. Sarah Bloor told the Straight that bar owners agree to limit the number of patrons in return for obtaining a liquor licence. "To go above that capacity puts the patrons at risk," she said.

So far this year, the following Vancouver establishments have been penalized for overcrowding: Au Bar (nine days of suspensions), Bar None Cabaret ($10,000 in fines), Atlantis Club (10-day suspension), Granville Room ($5,000 fine), the Odyssey ($12,000 in fines), Portuguese Club of Vancouver (four-day suspension), Roxy Cabaret (five-day suspension), Skybar (12-day suspension), Tonic Bar (18-day suspension), Voda in the Westin Grand Hotel ($5,000 fine), and Wild Coyote ($6,000 fine).

On September 1, the branch upheld a 2002 decision imposing a six-day suspension and $28,000 in fines on Richard's on Richards. The licence suspensions resulted from overcrowding and for not immediately expelling a customer who was too drunk to sit or hold his head in his hand.

In the rest of the Lower Mainland this year, there have been only four overcrowding violations, according to the Liquor Control and Licensing Branch Web site (www.pssg.gov.bc.ca/lclb/).

Vancouver police liquor coordinator Const. Pam Ruschke claimed in a September 17 letter to deputy chief Bob Rich that despite an increase in inspections, enforcement "has not followed at a corresponding rate". She stated that the VPD supports a return to 2 a.m. closings rather than allowing downtown bars to stay open until 3 a.m. on Fridays and Saturdays.

This year, the B.C. Liberal government amended the provincial fire code--which covers every municipality except Vancouver--setting a required density of 0.4 square metres per person if there is enough exiting capacity. The Vancouver fire code requires a capacity of 1.2 square metres per person, three times the provincial capacity.

Dave Kershaw, co-owner of three downtown clubs and two clubs outside Vancouver, told the Straight that other municipalities normally limit capacity in bars to 0.75 square metres per person on the dance floor or in standing areas and 0.95 square metres per person everywhere else.

Teti pointed out that Vancouver club owners use metal detectors and employ security guards on Granville Street. Vancouver has a sprinkler bylaw and has also required bars to double their exit capacities.

Vancouver Fire and Rescue Services spokesperson Capt. Rob Jones-Cook told the Straight that sprinklers help control fires and lessen damage, but they don't necessarily help people escape safely in an emergency. He added that Vancouver fire officials have no intention of permitting tragedies like those that have occurred in U.S. nightclubs, which didn't have sprinklers and where people couldn't leave because exit doors were locked.

Jones-Cook also questioned any suggestion from club owners that enforcing capacity limits is having a serious financial impact on the industry. "There has to be a profit or these people wouldn't be putting the money into opening these venues up," he said.

Teti, however, warned of serious consequences if the zero-tolerance enforcement policy puts good operators out of business. "That consequence is you get irresponsible or possibly people with criminal connections operating the bars," he said.

Liquor Control and Licensing Branch officials did not return the Straight's call by deadline.

[Sue Bitch]

i always thought there was a difference in clube here in van then in toronto or edmonton

bunk!

[sNyx]

I had a long covo with an Aussie fellow this weekend. He told me most larger clubs in the city of Sydney run till 6/7AM.. there are some that start as early at 4/5PM. Even afterhours that run till 4PM. I thought that was nutter.

[Ms.Chop]

Originally Posted by sNyx™

I had a long covo with an Aussie fellow this weekend. He told me most larger clubs in the city of Sydney run till 6/7AM.. there are some that start as early at 4/5PM. Even afterhours that run till 4PM. I thought that was nutter.

in montreal clubs go til like 6am.. they have after hours clubs.. and my bro told me about sum "day time clubs" that run til like 3/4pm.. i dunno if they still have them tho.

o ya.. and legal age is 18..

and i remember my bro telling me.. that there was these few clubs.. that if u went as a couple (guy/girl) they usually jus checked the guy's id.. so if the girl was underage and as long as she looked old enuff they'd let them in.. depending on which club/bar.

[neoh]

that thing is such a crock of bullshit. what makes us different then anybody else in the world? What have we done that deserves so much crack down on alcohol? Our #1 addiction here isint alcohol (like america) - we don't have many problems in our clubs, it's all just a bunch of fucking bullshit if you ask me.

[BrownThug]

fuckin vpd....assholes

[miss.myra]

Well apparently we can't handle it even the way it is.

Taken a walk down granville st on a weekend? It's like a fucking circus.


People (usually from out of town) still insist on acting like idiots, starting fights, shooting up clubs, etc. We all probably have to show we can handle it the way it is.

of course things are going to be different, if not better on the east coast and in europe, entirely different cultures, and more population to boot.

[Kraig]

(bump)

[Ree Fresh]

Originally Posted by sNyx™

I had a long covo with an Aussie fellow this weekend. He told me most larger clubs in the city of Sydney run till 6/7AM.. there are some that start as early at 4/5PM. Even afterhours that run till 4PM. I thought that was nutter.

Actualy... After we stayed at a super club still 6am we then found a 24 hour pub on a main corner. Sektchy as hell though.

Im not sure who to blame. Could it be the strict laws that make us want to push the limits of club culture? I mean almost anywear else in the world you party ppl seem to understand "get a cab" and know your limit of alcohol. And ive heared foriners coment how they notice this distructive obnoxious extream party attidude that seems to come out of Americans and many Canadians too? Easy going drinking/club culture just seems so hard to get here?

[sweet~kandy]

Thats an interesting read.. .thanks

[pubowner101]

90 % of Liquor primary and Food primary licenses in the Okanagan Valley have had compliance issues also. The Government is relying on employees to enforce liquor control, however the penalties are directed towards the owners.
In BC, it is required for employees to obtain Serving It Right, which I am sure everybody is familiar with. If an employee does not ask for two pieces of ID or perhaps is of the opinion that a patron is not visibly intoxicated, but however is. The owner will be penalized.

This act is completely against our constitution. It would seem reasonable that the individual who served the patron should be fined, since they are the one who has taken the exam and paid a license fee in order to work in the industry.

In comparison, if you were driving your car while drinking and got pulled over, technically you should not be fined. They should fine the manufacturer of the vehicle. Which makes absolutely no sense.
They should impose more penalties against the individual employees who are the ones serving patrons. Serving it right needs to be revised and taken more serious by employees. I am sure if employees were fined they would think twice before serving potentially under age or intoxicated patrons. There is no consequence for them other than a warning or fired from there job.

It is impossible when employing up to 50 or more people to watch every single transaction that occurs between patrons and your employees.

[pubowner101]

90 % of Liquor primary and Food primary licenses in the Okanagan Valley have had compliance issues also. The Government is relying on employees to enforce liquor control, however the penalties are directed towards the owners.
In BC, it is required for employees to obtain Serving It Right, which I am sure everybody is familiar with. If an employee does not ask for two pieces of ID or perhaps is of the opinion that a patron is not visibly intoxicated, but however is. The owner will be penalized.

This act is completely against our constitution. It would seem reasonable that the individual who served the patron should be fined, since they are the one who has taken the exam and paid a license fee in order to work in the industry.

In comparison, if you were driving your car while drinking and got pulled over, technically you should not be fined. They should fine the manufacturer of the vehicle. Which makes absolutely no sense.
They should impose more penalties against the individual employees who are the ones serving patrons. Serving it right needs to be revised and taken more serious by employees. I am sure if employees were fined they would think twice before serving potentially under age or intoxicated patrons. There is no consequence for them other than a warning or fired from there job.

It is impossible when employing up to 50 or more people to watch every single transaction that occurs between patrons and your employees.

[kir mokum]

Originally Posted by pubowner101

It would seem reasonable that the individual who served the patron should be fined, since they are the one who has taken the exam and paid a license fee in order to work in the industry.

yeah, it totally makes sense for the lowest paid people to pay thousands of dollars in fines for the management of a bar.

[pubowner101]

I rest my case. Obviously employees do not take it seriously. Now they know what it is like to be fined. I suggest a small fine that gets their attention and possibly have three count rule or they will loose there right to work in the Hospitality industry.

[kir mokum]

i think you may be on drugs.

[oddmud]

Originally Posted by kir mokum

yeah, it totally makes sense for the lowest paid people to pay thousands of dollars in fines for the management of a bar.

it does make sense, they're the ones making the bad decisions.

[pubowner101]

Thank You ! There will be changes to the current Provincial legislation regarding serving it right. At present time there is at least 200 pub, bar and restaurant signing a petition regarding making changes to Serving It Wrong just kidding Serving It Right.

By the way the average wage for a server is 10 - 15 dollars an hour + tips. A good server came make from 40 000 - 70 0000 a year.

[kir mokum]

Originally Posted by oddmud

it does make sense, they're the ones making the bad decisions.

and who's hiring, training, monitoring, managing, and firing these bad employees? the reason owners get fined is because they bare the greatest responsibility. they're responsible for the managers who are responsible for the employees. if the employees are doing a bad job it's up to management to correct it and they're ultimately responsible for the actions of those below them.

this is really basic shit guys.

[pubowner101]

Then what is the point of Serving It Right ! The Responsibility is of the SERVER !!!!!

[kir mokum]

i don't know anything about serving it right. i'm assuming the point is to train servers in the laws and bylaws that govern the industry.

[oddmud]

Originally Posted by kir mokum

and who's hiring, training, monitoring, managing, and firing these bad employees? the reason owners get fined is because they bare the greatest responsibility. they're responsible for the managers who are responsible for the employees. if the employees are doing a bad job it's up to management to correct it and they're ultimately responsible for the actions of those below them.

this is really basic shit guys.

fuck that, you probably believe in unions too don't you?

bullshit, take personal responsibility.

[kir mokum]

have you ever been a manager?

[kir mokum]

'cause i don't think you know much about power/organizational structures or flow of responsibility within organizations.

[pubowner101]

Organizational flow. Wow ! these are big words. In a night club with 600 people. It does not always go so smoothly. Humans will only take action if they have a barrier. For example a fine of 500 dollars. That should do the trick. organization flow may work in the office but not so often in the Hospitality biz.

[kir mokum]

yeah, i have to admit i had to look up "organization" and "flow" before i posted that.

i think better management would work a lot better than a fine.